Conditional Salvation
- Thread starter SeaBass
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
No my friend, it's not. This issue of works has caused much confusion. The position that works play no role in salvation causes conflict with quite a few passages of Scripture. The view I hold harmonizes all of the passage nicely. Harmony in the Scriptures shows that one is understanding correctly. If we have conflicting passages we are not understanding something correctly. Jesus said,
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luk 13:23-24 NKJ)
To strive one has to do something, thus they must work. There are quite a few passages that tell us of works that must be done.
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. (Luk 13:23-24 NKJ)
To strive one has to do something, thus they must work. There are quite a few passages that tell us of works that must be done.
E
Well mine harmonizes too. And our works do not save us. Justification by works actually goes against "by grace through faith".
Now I will bet you bring up James but James talks about our works being shown by our faith. James does not tell us our works save us in any way. If we have faith in God it will be shown by our faith.
The only way you can make salvation or justification by our "good works" harmonize is by reading Scripture with a preconceived idea that our "works" can save us.
With the Ephesians passage you justified your thinking by saying Paul was talking about the law. Law or no law I'll say again...Works is works no matter how you justify it.
And I'll bring up this point also...how are we sanctified? Only the Holy Spirit working in our lives can sanctify us. Our works don't sanctify us either.
Now I will bet you bring up James but James talks about our works being shown by our faith. James does not tell us our works save us in any way. If we have faith in God it will be shown by our faith.
The only way you can make salvation or justification by our "good works" harmonize is by reading Scripture with a preconceived idea that our "works" can save us.
With the Ephesians passage you justified your thinking by saying Paul was talking about the law. Law or no law I'll say again...Works is works no matter how you justify it.
And I'll bring up this point also...how are we sanctified? Only the Holy Spirit working in our lives can sanctify us. Our works don't sanctify us either.
I gave you scriptures. From Romans 1 and 10. Even the Saints of old trusted in this very same thing, as seen in for example Jeremiah 23:6. The pharisees thought they were naturally good and that their free will efforts in law keeping would make them become righteous. They failed. And Jesus told them why, they were vile sinners. If they failed, then how much more would not a gentile fail? A very goofy and pathetic failure it would be. And too many are jumping in on that losing bandwagon. Better drop such plans and start trusting in Christ instead.
your understanding is different from God's....
John 8:43-45King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
if you stop listening to God the devil becomes your father.......
John 8:43-45King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP]Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
if you stop listening to God the devil becomes your father.......
E
If we are saved or justified by our works what then does that also reduce the works of Christ too? It reduces the blood of Christ to...not good enough to save or justify me. In other words the blood of Christ is not enough so I have to work to save myself.
Justification by works is our way of telling God..."I want to be in control". "What you did for me on the cross wasn't enough. I want to work at my own salvation." "My life, my rules". "Sorry God, what you did wasn't enough".
You take salvation out of the hand of the creator and put it in the hand of the creation. You are now Sovereign not God.
Justification by works is our way of telling God..."I want to be in control". "What you did for me on the cross wasn't enough. I want to work at my own salvation." "My life, my rules". "Sorry God, what you did wasn't enough".
You take salvation out of the hand of the creator and put it in the hand of the creation. You are now Sovereign not God.
The only thing required of man is faith/believe/trust in the Lord Jesus.
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes rules out any essential addition.
What is remarkable is how persons who have never trusted the Savior for eternal life come on here & tell us Christians how to be saved, setting up hoops to jump through, contrary to God's Word which over & over offers salvation simply for believe/faith/trust in the Savior.
WHOSOEVER RULES OUT ANY ESSENTIAL ADDITION TO BELIEVES
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
John 5:24[/URL]
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.'
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
Whosoever believes rules out any essential addition.
What is remarkable is how persons who have never trusted the Savior for eternal life come on here & tell us Christians how to be saved, setting up hoops to jump through, contrary to God's Word which over & over offers salvation simply for believe/faith/trust in the Savior.
WHOSOEVER RULES OUT ANY ESSENTIAL ADDITION TO BELIEVES
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
John 5:24[/URL]
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:13
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
1 John 5:10-13
Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who beholdeth the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.'
[NO WATER, NO WORKS]
Last edited:
"play no role in" sounds like weasel words.
The point is that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
The point is faith > salvation > works.
Not works > salvation.
Works cannot save, because the unsaved man has no good works.
Strive to make sure you rest!
Salvation is a rest. You rest in the finished cross work of Christ;
You rest in the Savior, who invites those who labor & are heavy-laden to come to Him for rest.
The point is that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works.
The point is faith > salvation > works.
Not works > salvation.
Works cannot save, because the unsaved man has no good works.
Strive to make sure you rest!
Salvation is a rest. You rest in the finished cross work of Christ;
You rest in the Savior, who invites those who labor & are heavy-laden to come to Him for rest.
E
Now there is one thing you MUST understand by what am saying. I am not saying we are not called to do good works. I have been accused of saying that when I have never said or eluded to that.
I believe you would be hard pressed to find anyone in either the faith or works camp that does not believe we are to do good works. But immediately when we say by "faith alone" we are being judged. Immediately someone will think I am better because I do good works. That is why Paul tells us "not by works so no one can boast".
God calls us to do good works so that He may be glorified. When we start doing "good works" for our justification we immediately begin to glorify ourselves in the way of "look what I did".
There are those who do not have the capacity to do "good works" outside of their own home. Does God look at them and say "they aren't doing works therefore I cannot save or justify them"? But some of those people, some who I know personally, have a faith in God that would blow me out of the water.
It's by grace through faith which is given us by God by which we are saved not by our works so no one can boast. (Paraphrase)
I believe you would be hard pressed to find anyone in either the faith or works camp that does not believe we are to do good works. But immediately when we say by "faith alone" we are being judged. Immediately someone will think I am better because I do good works. That is why Paul tells us "not by works so no one can boast".
God calls us to do good works so that He may be glorified. When we start doing "good works" for our justification we immediately begin to glorify ourselves in the way of "look what I did".
There are those who do not have the capacity to do "good works" outside of their own home. Does God look at them and say "they aren't doing works therefore I cannot save or justify them"? But some of those people, some who I know personally, have a faith in God that would blow me out of the water.
It's by grace through faith which is given us by God by which we are saved not by our works so no one can boast. (Paraphrase)
Amen! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is substantiated and confirmed by good works. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*
T
God the father withdraw his parental protection from Israel after they fell into idolatry so many times. He chastised Israel to help them better reach sanctification, yes, but in the process, some of the reprobates suffered death, and therefore, were not "saved".
Gods parental protection is shown in a similar light during Christ's ministry. Abusing God's mercy will continue to have drastic consequences, and the abuser, who was supposed in be in God's grace, perishes.
Israel didn't fall into idolatry in one fell swoop. After many miraculous victories over the pagan peoples, Their spiritual fortitude would be vastly renewed. To counter this, Satan subtly eroded this fortitude, so that Israel departed from God the Father in a matter of years.
This same logic may be applied to the Christian person. In order to truly know if we ourselves remain in God's grace, we evaluate the fruits which we presently produce. If fruits of strife, envy, and greed etc. are found in the baskets, then we would know that Satan is currently eroding our defenses. We are not fully worshiping God, and so our trees will be cut off and thrown into fire.
It certainly is possible for a believer to not be saved, as shown in both the old and new testaments.
"He who perseveres to the end shall be saved."
The best way to produce the spiritually wholesome fruits is to live faith itself, and living faith itself ultimately requires one to participate in good works, since faith without works is dead.
When Christ condemned the Pharisees, he wasn't condemning the precepts which they followed, he was condemning how they used them. Things like sacrifices, fasting, and alms giving can in fact nourish holiness if done out of love for God and others.
Gods parental protection is shown in a similar light during Christ's ministry. Abusing God's mercy will continue to have drastic consequences, and the abuser, who was supposed in be in God's grace, perishes.
Israel didn't fall into idolatry in one fell swoop. After many miraculous victories over the pagan peoples, Their spiritual fortitude would be vastly renewed. To counter this, Satan subtly eroded this fortitude, so that Israel departed from God the Father in a matter of years.
This same logic may be applied to the Christian person. In order to truly know if we ourselves remain in God's grace, we evaluate the fruits which we presently produce. If fruits of strife, envy, and greed etc. are found in the baskets, then we would know that Satan is currently eroding our defenses. We are not fully worshiping God, and so our trees will be cut off and thrown into fire.
It certainly is possible for a believer to not be saved, as shown in both the old and new testaments.
"He who perseveres to the end shall be saved."
The best way to produce the spiritually wholesome fruits is to live faith itself, and living faith itself ultimately requires one to participate in good works, since faith without works is dead.
When Christ condemned the Pharisees, he wasn't condemning the precepts which they followed, he was condemning how they used them. Things like sacrifices, fasting, and alms giving can in fact nourish holiness if done out of love for God and others.
First, the context had nothing to do with being born again. I did not attack your experience at all. Just a completely incorrect application. I can guarantee your physical nature did not change just because you believed. The nature I was addressing was physical, you are addressing one's spiritual nature. Two completely different natures and you are still confusing them, even in this post to which I am responding.
One's personal salvation has nothing directly to do with what Christ accomplished on the Cross. What Christ did was for the world and all of mankind. He reversed the fall, saved all from death, sin and Satan, so that each person could respond to God's call to come. To be joined with Him which is the very purpose that man was created.
You also seem to confuse the differences of salvation, our personal salvation with justification. They are not the same thing.
We cannot justify our selves by works. We are justified by faith. It permits one to enter into Christ in order to be saved. Salvation is through faith. That faith is evidenced by works. No works means no faith, thus no salvation. Faith in the NT cannot be divorced from works. They are meaningless when separated. Those works of love, mercy has nothing to do with what Christ did, cannot affect it, cannot change it, one cannot even deny what Christ did, it is still an accomplished historical event.
You also seem to confuse the differences of salvation, our personal salvation with justification. They are not the same thing.
We cannot justify our selves by works. We are justified by faith. It permits one to enter into Christ in order to be saved. Salvation is through faith. That faith is evidenced by works. No works means no faith, thus no salvation. Faith in the NT cannot be divorced from works. They are meaningless when separated. Those works of love, mercy has nothing to do with what Christ did, cannot affect it, cannot change it, one cannot even deny what Christ did, it is still an accomplished historical event.
According to some, we have a choice as sinners to accept Christ or not.... then after we become saints of God, such choices are revoked immediately so that we can't turn back. Stuck with Christ whether you like it or not. We can become Satanists afterward & still be saved. We can kill our families & then ourselves & still be saved..... Then the "they were never saved to begin with" speech gets whipped out & everything is fixed. That still doesn't explain why our choice was revoked, though.
E
How you figure I am mixing up salvation and justification? Saved by grace justified by the work of Christ.
What am saying is that some people want to add works to grace and works to justification.
Neither of these ideas are taught in the Bible. Not only that some add works to sanctification.
Grace..from God alone
Justification...by Christ alone
Sanctification...by the Holy Spirit alone
If you say you need to add works to any part of God's work then you made you in control not God. Thus...who is the Sovereign one..us or God?
What am saying is that some people want to add works to grace and works to justification.
Neither of these ideas are taught in the Bible. Not only that some add works to sanctification.
Grace..from God alone
Justification...by Christ alone
Sanctification...by the Holy Spirit alone
If you say you need to add works to any part of God's work then you made you in control not God. Thus...who is the Sovereign one..us or God?
First, if the topic is about our personal salvation then some of what you are stating is irrelevant. What Christ did He did for every single human being. He saved us from death, sin and Satan. That is what scripture explains as being saved by grace because man has absolutely nothing to do with what Christ did for us. This is also what scripture calls the Gift of salvation. this is the same gift as referenced in Rom 5:17 and is explained in vs 18 as life given to all men. It is the same life as stated in I Cor 15:12-22.
What Christ puts man and the world back into a correct relationship because life was restored to both by Christ's Incarnation and resurrection. This is also called Christ reconciling the world to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25.
Now, respective of our personal salvation through faith which is the attaining of eternal life, also a gift and also involves grace, but it also requires the cooperation of man. This is a mutual, synergistic, covenantal relationship we freely enter with Christ.
Our faith is what justifies us. It permits us to enter into His Kingdom, His Body. Once there your personal salvation in attaining eternal life begins. You can call it what you want, sanctification, walk with God, being transformed into His likness, it constitutes one's personal salvation and includes works. You cannot be saved without the work of transforming your life from the old to the new and becoming like Christ, working toward perfection.
It is not a matter of man or God. It is man and God when it comes to our personal salvation. You are not a passive receptacle and God somehow just unilaterally transforms one. If it was actually His choice He would transform every single human being because that is what He desires. But God was not interested in a manipulated object, but rather a creature that would share communion with Him freely.
There is no works with grace, no works with justification, but there is works of faith.
I can assure you that whatever works you do will not change the work of Christ. Nothing you do will help you to be raised from the dead, and nothing you do will help Christ atone for sin, and nothing you do will give life to this world either.
In many respects you are confusing what Christ did and man's response to what Christ did.
What Christ puts man and the world back into a correct relationship because life was restored to both by Christ's Incarnation and resurrection. This is also called Christ reconciling the world to God, II Cor 5:18-19, Rom 3:23-25.
Now, respective of our personal salvation through faith which is the attaining of eternal life, also a gift and also involves grace, but it also requires the cooperation of man. This is a mutual, synergistic, covenantal relationship we freely enter with Christ.
Our faith is what justifies us. It permits us to enter into His Kingdom, His Body. Once there your personal salvation in attaining eternal life begins. You can call it what you want, sanctification, walk with God, being transformed into His likness, it constitutes one's personal salvation and includes works. You cannot be saved without the work of transforming your life from the old to the new and becoming like Christ, working toward perfection.
It is not a matter of man or God. It is man and God when it comes to our personal salvation. You are not a passive receptacle and God somehow just unilaterally transforms one. If it was actually His choice He would transform every single human being because that is what He desires. But God was not interested in a manipulated object, but rather a creature that would share communion with Him freely.
There is no works with grace, no works with justification, but there is works of faith.
I can assure you that whatever works you do will not change the work of Christ. Nothing you do will help you to be raised from the dead, and nothing you do will help Christ atone for sin, and nothing you do will give life to this world either.
In many respects you are confusing what Christ did and man's response to what Christ did.
Last edited: