The "Impossible" Gospel

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Oct 31, 2011
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#61
Good point, I know there are two testaments, but, are there two covenants? The LORD made a covenant with Abraham (while Abraham slept, and it was indeed a covenant with Himself, the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire), I believe this is the same one that Christ carried out, finished it, that is.
There are many covenants that God made with man. There is the salt covenant, even. I think it is fun reading about how an animal was split in two with a path between, each party in the covenant walking between. I guess it was saying that if one broke the covenant they would have the same fate. That is how we know the covenant with Abraham was unconditional. God walked between, but Abram was in a deep sleep and did not walk between.

Some people list eight covenants spoken of in the bible, some more.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#62
All have sinned, so how do you explain this?

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
do you think it might have something to do with this? :)

Phil 3:2-6
Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more: circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

same guy, inspired by the Holy Spirit says...(v. 7-14)

But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

 
Jan 19, 2013
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#63
This "law" you say the Torah consists of is summed up in the words of scripture
"you can't keep it"? When we are told that and also told that we must keep law in the same scripture,
have you ever thought about how both can be the same message from the same God?

How about using keeping it as a way to salvation instead of using Christ for salvation
, don't you think that is something we need to know and does not conflict with the message to keep it?
Are you saying salvation is by law keeping rather than faith in Christ?
 
Oct 31, 2011
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#64
Are you saying salvation is by law keeping rather than faith in Christ?
I am saying that getting your mind all stuck in secular definition of law is a dead end street!! The Torah isn't about law.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#65
Deu_6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
So how did that work out for them?

How many were made righteous by law keeping?

Hint: Gal 3:10.
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
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#66
please don't misunderstand me...i'm not saying the Lord Jesus replaced the Law.

i'm saying He fulfilled it for us.
He kept it perfectly in our place.


He did for us what we could never, ever do for ourselves.
does that make sense? :)
Here is my understanding of how Jesus "Fulfilled the Law".

Y'shua died for ignorant sin and therefore fulfilled all the offerings. All of them have to do with ignorance only. If you willfully sin, you need to repent as David did and stop doing the sin, period!

Now, some say that Y'shua didn't do away with the Torah. He did not come to "destroy/abolish" it, but "fulfilled" it. Let's look at this argument and see if it holds water.

There are 2 important words to look at in Matt 5:17; "abolish" and "fulfill".

Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill.

The word "fulfill" is the Greek word pleroo and have various meanings:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
2) to fill to the top; so that nothing shall be wanting, to full measure, to fill to the brim,
3) to fully preach.

Abolish means to do away with or to put an end to. Fulfill according to most Christians also means to do away with or to put and end to, exactly as Y'shua fulfilled the Law.

But looking carefully at Y'shua's words, He said He came to do the one (fulfill) and not the other (destroy/abolish), therefore they cannot mean the same thing.

What does destroy/abolish mean, and what does fulfill mean? Can they both end up having the same meaning and producing the same result?

Let's start at where else we find the Greek word pleroo ("Fulfill")"

Romans 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached (pleroo) the gospel of the Messiah.

If pleroo (fulfill) means to "stop doing", are we now to stop preaching the Gospel; as Paul has fully done it and need no further action? Can't be, right? The next verse...

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill (pleroo) you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If YHWH has filled you with all joy in believing in Y'shua on a specific day, do you now stop having joy the next day and for the rest of your life? You see the argument from a Christian perspective; the Greco-western perspective is totally flawed. Let's now move on to what Y'shua actually said...

The words that Y'shua used: "Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill" is a typical Hebrew idiom and can never be understood if you do not use the correct tools of interpretation, the "Hebrew tools".

It is interesting to note that Rabbis still use this idiom to this very day when they instruct their disciples. The Hebrew idiom is: "You must fulfill the Torah" or; "Do not destroy the Torah".

The Hebrew perspective, the correct tools for interpretation on Y'shua's words: "Do not destroy the Torah" literally means, "do not misinterpret/ misrepresent/teach to the Torah incorrectly". Wow! What a renewal of thought. Perhaps you can now see why Y'shua railed against the Pharisees and scribes and called them hypocrites who preferred the tradition and doctrines of men over the word of God through Torah and Y'shua.

Y'shua was hated by those scribes and Pharisees because he was preaching that they were mishandling the Torah by emphasizing their man-made rules.

Again, "You must fulfill the Torah", on the other hand literally means "to interpret/represent/teach the Torah correctly".

So here we can clearly see that abolish or fulfill didn't have anything remotely to do with destroying the Torah or not destroying it. It merely said that Y'shua came to interpret and represent His Father's Torah to us correctly; or even to fully preach it - perfectly tailored with pleroo.
 
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psychomom

Guest
#67
Deu_6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Isa_42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
you see what we're saying is that's a pretty big IF there in Deut. :)

and God certainly did magnify the Law for HIS righteousness' sake.

i hope you won't mind if i make an observation...(heard it from a pastor)

'most of us tend to base our relationship with God on our performance rather than His Grace.
if we've performed well, whatever well is in our opinion, then we expect God to bless us. if we haven't done so well, our expectations are reduced accordingly.
in this sense, we live by works rather than by grace. we are saved by grace, but we are living by the sweat of our own performance.
moreover, we are always challenging ourselves and one another to try harder.
we seem to believe success in the Christian life is basically up to us: our discipline, our commitment, our zeal, with some help from God along the way. :rolleyes:

the realization that my daily relationship with God is based on the infinite merit of Christ instead of my own performance is very freeing, and it is not meant to be a one time experience.'


 
Dec 12, 2013
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#68
Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.
And this statement is full of ignorance and speaks clearly to your discredit...for real! If you really believe this I would suggest you go back to school for sure......really? WOW!
 
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psychomom

Guest
#70
Here is my understanding of how Jesus "Fulfilled the Law".

Y'shua died for ignorant sin and therefore fulfilled all the offerings. All of them have to do with ignorance only. If you willfully sin, you need to repent as David did and stop doing the sin, period!

Now, some say that Y'shua didn't do away with the Torah. He did not come to "destroy/abolish" it, but "fulfilled" it. Let's look at this argument and see if it holds water.

There are 2 important words to look at in Matt 5:17; "abolish" and "fulfill".

Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill.

The word "fulfill" is the Greek word pleroo and have various meanings:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
2) to fill to the top; so that nothing shall be wanting, to full measure, to fill to the brim,
3) to fully preach.

Abolish means to do away with or to put an end to. Fulfill according to most Christians also means to do away with or to put and end to, exactly as Y'shua fulfilled the Law.

But looking carefully at Y'shua's words, He said He came to do the one (fulfill) and not the other (destroy/abolish), therefore they cannot mean the same thing.

What does destroy/abolish mean, and what does fulfill mean? Can they both end up having the same meaning and producing the same result?

Let's start at where else we find the Greek word pleroo ("Fulfill")"

Romans 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached (pleroo) the gospel of the Messiah.

If pleroo (fulfill) means to "stop doing", are we now to stop preaching the Gospel; as Paul has fully done it and need no further action? Can't be, right? The next verse...

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill (pleroo) you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If YHWH has filled you with all joy in believing in Y'shua on a specific day, do you now stop having joy the next day and for the rest of your life? You see the argument from a Christian perspective; the Greco-western perspective is totally flawed. Let's now move on to what Y'shua actually said...

The words that Y'shua used: "Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill" is a typical Hebrew idiom and can never be understood if you do not use the correct tools of interpretation, the "Hebrew tools".

It is interesting to note that Rabbis still use this idiom to this very day when they instruct their disciples. The Hebrew idiom is: "You must fulfill the Torah" or; "Do not destroy the Torah".

The Hebrew perspective, the correct tools for interpretation on Y'shua's words: "Do not destroy the Torah" literally means, "do not misinterpret/ misrepresent/teach to the Torah incorrectly". Wow! What a renewal of thought. Perhaps you can now see why Y'shua railed against the Pharisees and scribes and called them hypocrites who preferred the tradition and doctrines of men over the word of God through Torah and Y'shua.

Y'shua was hated by those scribes and Pharisees because he was preaching that they were mishandling the Torah by emphasizing their man-made rules.

Again, "You must fulfill the Torah", on the other hand literally means "to interpret/represent/teach the Torah correctly".

So here we can clearly see that abolish or fulfill didn't have anything remotely to do with destroying the Torah or not destroying it. It merely said that Y'shua came to interpret and represent His Father's Torah to us correctly; or even to fully preach it - perfectly tailored with pleroo.
well...i believe the Bible makes it pretty clear Jesus died for all our sins.

but, indeed, it wasn't the Law that was ended...it was the Mosaic Covenant.
i know we won't agree on that, and that's fine.
just telling you what i think. :)
 

WomanLovesTX

Senior Member
Jan 1, 2010
1,390
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#71
Originally Posted by WomanLovesTX

Deu_6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.


So how did that work out for them?

How many were made righteous by law keeping?

Hint: Gal 3:10.
God did not change. His Word remains the same....IF we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us, it shall be our righteousness.

They failed to observe and thus were punished by being taken into captivity and many have spread around the world, that same world that Jesus came to save. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I think most Christians who believe the Torah is mostly just history and not something we live today, through the grace of Christ wiping out our past sins that we are confessing, are living a less than kind of life. Christ came so that we would have life abundant.

Joh_10:10 The thief does not come except that he may steal, and kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life and may have it abundantly.

2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Remember in my OP that it was stated that there are only 3 kinds of believers. #1) Great in the Kingdom, #2) Least in the Kingdom, and #3) REJECTED from the Kingdom.
 
A

Angelique

Guest
#72
2 corinthians 5:21
 
May 14, 2014
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#73
And this statement is full of ignorance and speaks clearly to your discredit...for real! If you really believe this I would suggest you go back to school for sure......really? WOW!
77 Thanks for your opinion. Now...disprove it.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#75
Good point, I know there are two testaments, but,
are there two covenants?
The LORD made a covenant with Abraham (while Abraham slept, and it was indeed a covenant with Himself,
the pillar of smoke and the pillar of fire), I believe
this is the same one that Christ carried out, finished it, that is.
Actually that was the land covenant, which was fulfilled in the possession of Canaan under Joshua
(Josh 21:43-45), and in the full occupation of Canaan under Solomon (1Kgs 4:21, 24-25).

The covenant in the blood of Christ is an entirely new covenant (Lk 22:20),
which was promised in Jer 31:31-34.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#76
2 corinthians 5:21
Awesome verse for us and what a trade off for sure.....what blows my mind is the fact that before the casting down of the world this course was set by the Heavenly Father and Jesus set his face like flint so as to accomplish this for us.....

Became sin for us
so
So we can be made righteous before God....

Like I said, what a trade off for sure HAHAH!
 
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Fubario

Guest
#77
The Gospel: just do what Jesus does and obey Him until you become crazy and live for Him victoriously and this involves the Old Testament, be like faithful person and ABEL BE LIKE ABEL HAD FAVOUR!!
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#78
Also, the book of Isaiah shows true work and purpose of the law, as it always was in truth. Often people then, as now, read it
only legally, or by the letter of the law. Some people even say God wrote it that way in the first place, even though we are taught that God didn't do that.
The letter of the law is the law.

The phrase "letter of the law" is not in Scripture.
There is only the "letter," and only the "law," which are the same thing.

There is no meaning of the law not given in its letter (writing of it).
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#79
77 Thanks for your opinion. Now...disprove it.
Your statement speaks for itself..so I really don't need to prove it as you have already...because to compare washing pots and pans to honoring parents and in a negative statement directed at those who disagree with you is moronic at best!

Disclaimer....NOT CALLING YOU MORONIC, but the statement was indeed moronic!

Originally Posted by jdbear
Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.
 
Jan 19, 2013
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#80
y'know...the Gospel of the Lord Jesus is impossible by human standards. :)

when we are rebuked for preaching Grace, we sometimes hear ppl cry foul.

you can't preach that stuff! people will become antinomian!

if the Gospel doesn't sound too good to be true, it's prolly not the Gospel.

the God Who makes the demands (Law), met the demands (Gospel).


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to psychomom again.