The "Impossible" Gospel

[peacefulbeliever]

All have sinned, so how do you explain this?

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

I'm not sure what you mean . . . but yes, Zacharias and Elizabeth were made righteous by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless - the gospels are also before the veil was rent - before:

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: . . . . no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are building together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. - ONE new man, ONE body, the church of which Christ is the head.

 

[Karraster]

you see what we're saying is that's a pretty big IF there in Deut.

and God certainly did magnify the Law for HIS righteousness' sake.

i hope you won't mind if i make an observation...(heard it from a pastor)

'most of us tend to base our relationship with God on our performance rather than His Grace.
if we've performed well, whatever well is in our opinion, then we expect God to bless us. if we haven't done so well, our expectations are reduced accordingly.
in this sense, we live by works rather than by grace. we are saved by grace, but we are living by the sweat of our own performance.
moreover, we are always challenging ourselves and one another to try harder.
we seem to believe success in the Christian life is basically up to us: our discipline, our commitment, our zeal, with some help from God along the way.

the realization that my daily relationship with God is based on the infinite merit of Christ instead of my own performance is very freeing, and it is not meant to be a one time experience.'

What is grace? Paul used the word "grace" a lot! He often said it to those going out to spread the gospel of Messiah. In those days going out to preach "Jesus" could mean death, stoning, crucifixion, getting boiled in oil, i.e. not a pleasant way to die. Do ya really think Paul was saying "unmerited favor to you guys..", or was it "power of Messiah go with you"? Translations have changed, but the real Word has not, the real meaning of the Word has not.

 

[Elin]

Christians: Law from Moses and Grace from "Jesus"

Christians (that is mainstream, traditional for the past 1700 years) use this verse consistently to state that "Jesus" grace replaced Moses' Law".

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Y'shua the Messiah.

Christians proudly throw this verse at you: but there is only one problem: the word "but" in italics was not in the original text - no, it was added by the translators and changed the entire concept. This is how it is better translated:

John 1:17 For the was was given by Moses, grace and truth came by Y'shua the Messiah.

It reads:

"the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (Jn 1:17)

It makes a clear contrast between law and grace.

 

[psychomom]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to psychomom again.

you are too kind.

imma grab some time staring at my handsome husband.

bit i'll try to check in later in case anyone has questions about something i wrote.

God's blessings in Christ Jesus to all.

 

[Elin]

I love you mom.....psycho or not your awesome. I could listen to you talk about the gospel all day. Bless you lord for this living vessel of truth that glorifies you so beautifully.

Thank you Lord that you call us to come to you as little children. .that you will make known the true knowledge of you. That you sanctify us into your image do that we can glory in you and glorify you in our flesh.

Oh lord you are simply magnificent.

Thank you, Father, for our prayer partner.

 

[jdbear]

Your statement speaks for itself..so I really don't need to prove it as you have already...because to compare washing pots and pans to honoring parents and in a negative statement directed at those who disagree with you is moronic at best!

Disclaimer....NOT CALLING YOU MORONIC, but the statement was indeed moronic!

Originally Posted by jdbear

Unfortunately, those who speak against the law can't tell the difference between honoring your parents and washing pots and pans.

Well d, maybe someday you'll come to understand the heart of the law is mercy, not boasting, as you seem to be fond of distorting what Jesus actually taught.

 

[Elin]

All have sinned, so how do you explain this?

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Setting the Scriptures against themselves shows one does not correctly understand them,
for Scripture does not contradict itself.

 

[Elin]

See to it we Christians do not turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven and
His Words are recorded in the Torah and through the life of Y'shua.

The words from him that speaks from heaven are likewise
the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

 

[Elin]

Sometimes I just like to take one passage, pray over it, then follow the old King James Concordance to find it's relationship to the remainder of the Bible. If you have a little time on your hands try it. It won't save us, but
everyone should take the time to study the relationships between the Old and New Testaments.
It gives us a much greater understanding of the New Testament.

Agreed. . .the glory of Christ Jesus, God's One and Only Son, is foreshadowed in the OT.

 

[jdbear]

All have sinned, so how do you explain this?

Luk 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Yes, they were driven to God by a correct understanding of His word and Jesus didnt need to call such people, because they were right with God before Jesus came. Jesus came here to teach us what Zacharias and Elizabeth already knew.

 

[Elin]

Right. Jesus loved His Father's law and
corrected all who disobeyed it, especially those who should have known better. So did Paul.

He likewise gave us new law (Mt 22:37-39) for the new covenant (Lk 22:20)
which fulfills the old law (Mt 22:40) of the old covenant.

 

[Elin]

I am saying that getting your mind all stuck in secular definition of law is a dead end street!! The Torah isn't about law.

Who is defining the law?

We don't define it, it is given to us.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

you see what we're saying is that's a pretty big IF there in Deut.

and God certainly did magnify the Law for HIS righteousness' sake.

i hope you won't mind if i make an observation...(heard it from a pastor)

'most of us tend to base our relationship with God on our performance rather than His Grace.
if we've performed well, whatever well is in our opinion, then we expect God to bless us. if we haven't done so well, our expectations are reduced accordingly.
in this sense, we live by works rather than by grace. we are saved by grace, but we are living by the sweat of our own performance.
moreover, we are always challenging ourselves and one another to try harder.
we seem to believe success in the Christian life is basically up to us: our discipline, our commitment, our zeal, with some help from God along the way.

the realization that my daily relationship with God is based on the infinite merit of Christ instead of my own performance is very freeing, and it is not meant to be a one time experience.'

My own performance is very freeing also. As I study, observe, and keep commandments of Torah, I thank Jesus everyday for wiping out my past sins, and my present weaknesses. The thing is I know where I fall short, I know what I must repent of, and I do have a heart to please.

Php_4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Christ has strengthened me and does so on a daily basis. It makes praying without ceasing a reality. I am in constant communication with both God the Father and Y'shua (Yah's Salvation) the only Son of the Living God. Understanding that keeping His commandments are because I love Him and His commandments are not grievous. My life is blessed and peaceful. I have a mature faith, that completes me and strengthens my faith and thus strengthens my walk on His path which is well lighted with Instructions, clear and not muddled. His Word is perfect and does touch us like a double edged sword.

Eph_6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The helmet of salvation is the head of my salvation, Y'shua Messiah, AND the sword of the Spirit IS the Word of God (which is the Law of Moses, the prophets and the NT writers, who are the transcribers of God's dictation.)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That is what Torah is!! correction, protection, direction, instruction for living a Godly life through His precious grace of Salvation in the Messiah who fully preached how to correctly use the Torah. Who fully performed all the sacrifices for Ignorant Sin.

Paul said Heb_10:26 For IF we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (Torah), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

I admit, I have not fully learned the Torah, and I may still be doing things in my life that are wrong. I know in my heart that God hates us to mix the Godly with the pagan practices. For that reason, I dread the Christmas holidays. Christmas is to me, something I know I want have to be surrounded by in the Kingdom. I am single, and my family is in love with man made traditions and are not concerned if what they do pleases or does not please God. That is not where my heart is. I want to have a right heart (righteousness) to do things the way God asks us to do it and not add things in our lives that are not commanded by Him. Why? Because I fully trust His Ways are the right way to life everafter. If I ignored His Word here in this life, how can I expect to be in His Kingdom? The blood of Jesus is enough to wipe away my past sins, but it is not available for wilfully sinning.

Anyway, I do appreciate your kind and mature representation of your faith. Shalom.

 

[Elin]

Here is my understanding of how Jesus "Fulfilled the Law".

Y'shua died for ignorant sin and therefore fulfilled all the offerings. All of them have to do with ignorance only. If you willfully sin, you need to repent as David did and stop doing the sin, period!

Now, some say that Y'shua didn't do away with the Torah. He did not come to "destroy/abolish" it, but "fulfilled" it. Let's look at this argument and see if it holds water.

There are 2 important words to look at in Matt 5:17; "abolish" and "fulfill".

Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill.

The word "fulfill" is the Greek word pleroo and have various meanings:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
2) to fill to the top; so that nothing shall be wanting, to full measure, to fill to the brim,
3) to fully preach.

Abolish means to do away with or to put an end to. Fulfill according to most Christians also means to do away with or to put and end to, exactly as Y'shua fulfilled the Law.

But looking carefully at Y'shua's words, He said He came to do the one (fulfill) and not the other (destroy/abolish), therefore they cannot mean the same thing.

What does destroy/abolish mean, and what does fulfill mean? Can they both end up having the same meaning and producing the same result?

Let's start at where else we find the Greek word pleroo ("Fulfill")"

Romans 15:19 in the power of signs and wonders, in the power of the Spirit; so that from Jerusalem and round about as far as Illyricum I have fully preached (pleroo) the gospel of the Messiah.

If pleroo (fulfill) means to "stop doing", are we now to stop preaching the Gospel; as Paul has fully done it and need no further action? Can't be, right? The next verse...

Romans 15:13 Now the God of hope fill (pleroo) you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

If YHWH has filled you with all joy in believing in Y'shua on a specific day, do you now stop having joy the next day and for the rest of your life? You see the argument from a Christian perspective; the Greco-western perspective is totally flawed. Let's now move on to what Y'shua actually said...

The words that Y'shua used: "Think not that I am come to destroy (abolish) the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy (abolish), but to fulfill" is a typical Hebrew idiom and can never be understood if you do not use the correct tools of interpretation, the "Hebrew tools".

It is interesting to note that Rabbis still use this idiom to this very day when they instruct their disciples. The Hebrew idiom is: "You must fulfill the Torah" or; "Do not destroy the Torah".

The Hebrew perspective, the correct tools for interpretation on Y'shua's words: "Do not destroy the Torah" literally means, "do not misinterpret/ misrepresent/teach to the Torah incorrectly". Wow! What a renewal of thought. Perhaps you can now see why Y'shua railed against the Pharisees and scribes and called them hypocrites who preferred the tradition and doctrines of men over the word of God through Torah and Y'shua.

Y'shua was hated by those scribes and Pharisees because he was preaching that they were mishandling the Torah by emphasizing their man-made rules.

Again, "You must fulfill the Torah", on the other hand literally means "to interpret/represent/teach the Torah correctly".

So here we can clearly see that abolish or fulfill didn't have anything remotely to do with destroying the Torah or not destroying it. It merely said that Y'shua came to interpret and represent His Father's Torah to us correctly; or even to fully preach it - perfectly tailored with pleroo.

Kinda' left out the most important fact: Mt 22:37-39.

 

[Elin]

Remember in my OP that it was stated that
there are only 3 kinds of believers.
#1) Great in the Kingdom,
#2) Least in the Kingdom, and
#3) REJECTED from the Kingdom.

Actually, anyone rejected from the kingdom was not a true believer in the first place.

His faith was counterfeit.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

The words from him that speaks from heaven are likewise
the words spoken by the Son in these last days (Heb 1:1-2) through the NT writers.

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

I believe these are the same "last days" that the Son spoke of.

Jer_16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

There is no profit in celebrating and observing Christmas or Easter or Sunday or Valentine's Day from God's viewpoint. They are man-made traditions made to deceive and blind those who refuse to know what is in Torah. If the NT writers are making Torah void then you better take a closer look and see what is really being said. None of these Jewish believers in Christ would dare change, add to or take away from Torah. Y'shua didn't and they didn't. God does not change and Y'shua does not change. It is an "Impossible" Gospel that does away with God's eternal Torah.

 

[jdbear]

He likewise gave us new law (Mt 22:37-39) for the new covenant (Lk 22:20)
which fulfills the old law (Mt 22:40) of the old covenant.

The law is not new. Only condensed. And His followers drank from that cup. They entered into agreement with Him about the law. No boasting. Just belief....all the way. Mk.10:38-39

 

[Mem]

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

I believe these are the same "last days" that the Son spoke of.

Jer_16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

There is no profit in celebrating and observing Christmas or Easter or Sunday or Valentine's Day from God's viewpoint. They are man-made traditions made to deceive and blind those who refuse to know what is in Torah. If the NT writers are making Torah void then you better take a closer look and see what is really being said. None of these Jewish believers in Christ would dare change, add to or take away from Torah. Y'shua didn't and they didn't. God does not change and Y'shua does not change. It is an "Impossible" Gospel that does away with God's eternal Torah.

Indeed, it is impossible to tear down a temple made without hands.

 

[Elin]

What is grace?
Paul used the word "grace" a lot! He often said it to those going out to spread the gospel of Messiah. In those days going out to preach "Jesus" could mean death, stoning, crucifixion, getting boiled in oil, i.e. not a pleasant way to die.
Do ya really think Paul was saying "unmerited favor to you guys..",
or was it "power of Messiah go with you"?
Translations have changed, but the real Word has not, the real meaning of the Word has not.

Why are you not apprehending the meaning of "unmerited favor"?

Because grace is the mighty power of God does not mean it is not unmerited favor.

That glorious and mighty power of God's favor acting in us and for us is always unmerited by us.

What is it you are missing here?

 

[Angelique]

Actually, anyone rejected from the kingdom was not a true believer in the first place.

His faith was counterfeit.

Matthew 7:21-23New International Version (NIV)[h=3]True and False Disciples[/h][SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’