What is the different between original sin and daily sin.

[Elin]

Also how can anyone be responsible for their sin if they have no choice but to sin? That is a contradiction.

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

Take care of your unfinished business on the table before bringing other business to the table.:

Give the meaning of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8, Eph 2:3 which is true to all the words of the texts and does no violence to the texts.

Both you and Cassian have yet to meet these conditions.

 

[Elin]

It is preposurous to think that if the word die is used it does not mean death. Or that if the word/phrase, raised from the dead, implies that death did not occur.

To such depths have you sunk in trying to support an erroneous theory which you cannot prove with scripture.

Or worse that a text such as Heb 2:9 does not mean death, physical death because the word condemn is not in the verse. Just what kind of death would Christ have suffered if not physical and that His resurrection would not be physical because the word condemn is not in every verse that uses the word death.

Truly, you have missed the true meaning of salvation and scripture. I notice that you have not answered by questions either. If you cannot, just say so.

Non-responsive.

 

[Elin]

both of us have, the problem is that scripture does not agree with your theory. Your conditions cannot be met and stay true to scripture.

You have not shown that our explanations are actually false or unscriptural. Skinski7 outlined three false theories that both you and Kerry are actually using and possibly not even understanding that you actually follow these false teachings of scripture.
they are Original Sin, Anselm's satisfaction theory of atonement whose foundation is Original Sin theory and Calvin added the penal substitution theory to Anselm's satisfaction theory. You should study these theories so you might understand your own view and understand they are false according to scripture.

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

 

[gb9]

yep you get the same recycled speech over and over.

Non-responsive.

 

[Elin]

yep you get the same recycled speech over and over.

They just go in circles over and over, never really dealing with the texts whose meanings they deny.

 

[Cassian]

I don't do "ists" and "isms."

I do Bible, and move within the confines of the NT.

You follow the Bible, either knowingly, or unwittingly, the paradigm developed by several men, Calvin in particular. As time has gone by, most Protestants don't even know that these theories are the bedrock of most views today. They have become so pervasive that it is assumed to be scriptural.

 

[Cassian]

They just go in circles over and over, never really dealing with the texts whose meanings they deny.

I don't deny the text or scripture. I deny the Calvinistic suppositions that you have imposed on the text, thus changing the meaning of the text.

 

[Elin]

I don't deny the text or scripture. I deny the Calvinistic suppositions that you have imposed on the text, thus changing the meaning of the text.

Give the meaning of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8, Eph 2:3

which is true to all the words of the texts

and does no violence to the texts.

You have yet to meet these conditions.

 

[Cassian]

Give the meaning of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8, Eph 2:3

which is true to all the words of the texts

and does no violence to the texts.

You have yet to meet these conditions.

The suppositions of Calvinism and associated man made theories all do violence to scripture. Scripture will never align with Calvinism. If it was actually scripture it would not be called Calvinism.

 

[Skinski7]

The suppositions of Calvinism and associated man made theories all do violence to scripture. Scripture will never align with Calvinism. If it was actually scripture it would not be called Calvinism.

You are banging your head against a wall. All you will get is quips and assertions from these people. They cannot address the substance and therefore must respond superficially without substance.

Here is what they believe...

[video=youtube;wRGMp0md5CE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRGMp0md5CE[/video]

Paul Washers starting point it that man is "radically depraved." That it the fundamental premise of his entire theology and it is the same thing Elin and others are promoting.

We see in that video...

1. People are all BORN radically depraved.
2. People are truly dead in sin and truly hate God from BIRTH. All are equally evil.
3. People are TOTALLY DISABLED from being able to respond to God.
4. Therefore there MUST be an OFFSET to this TOTAL DISABILITY.
5. Irresistible Grace is what offsets the disability and Irresistible Grace is only given to those who are elected.

Paul Washer creates a false dichotomy in his answer to the young man. His premise is ALWAYS Original Sin. Thus presents the young man with two alterntives..

1. All are born wicked, depraved as well as hating God. Thus all a born TOTALLY DISABLED from being able to turn to God even if God offers them mercy if they would turn. Thus without Irresistible Grace being an offset every single human being would perish and go to hell.
2. All are born wicked, depraved as well as hating God. Thus all are born TOTALLY DISABLED from being able to turn to God yet God draws a select number via Irresistible Grace and that particular group is able to be saved.

That is EXACTLY what Augustine taught in the Fourth Century although he didn't adhere to "Total Depravity" but rather a "Partial Depravity." Yet it doesn't matter because in both instances man is disabled in being able to respond to God.

This doctrine takes ALL RESPONSIBILITY away from man and puts ALL RESPONSIBILITY on God.

So not only do we have Satan's first lie of...

Lie 1. Ye can sin and not surely die.

...we have a second lie of...

Lie 2. Ye cannot obey God.

Build your theology upon those two lies and you end up with an entire system of error which argues in favour of sin.

THAT is why these people won't touch purity of heart, crucifixion of the flesh, escaping the corruption in the world through lust, as you can see by the silence in this thread and pretty much every other thread on these forums. Those are the elephants in the Bible few want to touch because to do so would expose their false religion and their false salvation.

I also bet that many of the vacuous responses they make is to get information like that which I present off the last page because it is so damaging to their theology.

 

[Skinski7]

Check this out...

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good,[8] and wholly inclined to all evil,[9] do proceed all actual transgressions.[10]
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, does remain in those that are regenerated;[11] and although it be, through Christ, pardoned, and mortified; yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.[12]

Westminster Confession of Faith, Article 6
Westminster Confession of Faith

That quote plainly asserts that sinning is not a choice. They believe that a human being is born "wholly inclined to evil, disables, opposite to all good." Not only do they believe that, they also believe that "this corruption of nature... does remain in those that are regenerated."

This is why we find in Article 17 of the Westminster Confession this...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;[7] and, for a time, continue therein:[8] whereby they incur God's displeasure,[9] and grieve His Holy Spirit,[10] come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts,[11] have their hearts hardened,[12] and their consciences wounded;[13] hurt and scandalize others,[14] and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.[15]

Westminster Confession of Faith, Article 17
Westminster Confession of Faith

Right there is where they teach that the remaining corruption leads them to keep sinning. It is these fundamentals that prevent them from discussing heart purity. They simply cannot approach the issue of heart purity because it exposes their doctrine as evil.

With both those quotes in mind we can read this in Article 11...

V. God does continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified;[14] and although they can never fall from the state of justification,[15] yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.[16]

Westminster Confession of Faith, Article 11
Westminster Confession of Faith

This is why Penal Substitution fits so well with all this because it is an ABSTRACT POSITION which an actual MANIFEST REALITY.

I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]

Westminster Confession of Faith, Article 11
Westminster Confession of Faith

These people actually believe that Jesus obeyed in their place so they don't have to. They actually believe that Jesus had to obey in their place because they don't have the ability to do so EVEN AFTER SALVATION because they still have "sin in them."

The whole theology is really just Reformed Gnosticism with Christian terminology. Instead of "Knowledge" being what saves they have "Trust in a Legal Swap."

Both Gnosticism and this False Christianity fail to address the HEART ISSUE OF MAN. Both systems CLOAK the heart issue with a salvation IN POSITION instead of a salvation that is MANIFEST.

These people will argue in favour of sinning all day long.

Jesus contended for PERSONAL righteousness (ie. we DO what is right). The wolves contend for unrighteous (ie. we DO what is wrong because we are disabled and therefore need a cloak).


That is why when you ask one of these people if a child molester has to STOP molesting children BEFORE GOd will forgive them they have to answer NO!

If they answer YES then that would mean they are promoting ABILITY and if ABILITY is true then other sins would have to stop to.

 

[Elin]

Give the meaning of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8, Eph 2:3

which is true to all the words of the texts

and does no violence to the texts.

You have yet to meet these conditions.

The suppositions of Calvinism and associated man made theories all do violence to scripture. Scripture will never align with Calvinism. If it was actually scripture it would not be called Calvinism.

Non-responsive.

 

[Elin]

Here is what they believe..

Take care of your unfinished business on the table before bringing more business to the table:

Give the meaning of Lk 11:48-51; Ro 3:10, 4:5, 5:18, 8:7-8, Eph 2:3

which is true to all the words of the texts

and does no violence to the texts.

You have yet to meet these conditions.

 

[Elin]

Check this out...

Previously addressed. . .multiple times.

 

[Skinski7]

Examples...

Question

Does confessing and repenting of a known sin actually mean that one stops doing it?

For example, if an individual is addicted to pornography, gets drunk on a regular basis, lies, cheats or steals, do they have to actually stop doing these things before God will forgive them?

Thank you,
Scott

Answer from Senior Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, TN

Wow, that’s a big question!
Most basically, of course, we must stop the sin of unbelief by believing the gospel message and trusting in God’s grace to save us. Other than that, I think that we must be willing to acknowledge and repent of any KNOWN sin. As we continue to grow in Christ, of course, He will make us aware of other sin in our lives, which, when confronted with them, we must be willing to confess and repent.
That’s a short answer to a big question, but I hope it’s helpful in some way.

Answer from Senior Pastor First Baptist Church in Shelbyville, KY

The Bible teaches that the only sin that will send a person to Hell is the sin of unbelief. In other words, if we do not believe that Jesus is the only way to forgiveness and to Heaven, and if we are not willing to trust in Him. After we admit that we are sinful and trust Jesus as our Savior, we are "born again" according to John 3. After we are born again, God gives us a desire to now live a righteous life that pleases Him instead of a sinful life that pleases us.



Yes, we should turn from our sin and turn to Jesus. He will then give us the power and desire to no longer live in sin.

Answer from Pastor at a Church of Christ, Murfreesboro, TN.

Hi Scott,
Thank you for your question.
One aspect of receiving Christ is repentance, the intention to turn away from sin and turn to righteousness. Realizing that sin is what makes a mess of our lives, and that is what Christ is saving us from, along with the power of the Holy Spirit to help us once we’re saved, you’d think that to stop sinning would be a snap. But with most of us, that is not the case. However once we’re saved, the Bible says that “if we confess our sins, [God] is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” If you’re asking do you have to stop sinning in order to be saved, the answer is no. If that were the case, no one would be saved.
Does this answer your question? What are your thoughts on this?

Answer from First Baptist Pastor, Knoxville, TN

Scott:

Insofar as I can tell, "stopping" a sin in order to be saved is not a New Testament idea. Instead, we repent of trying to be in charge of our own lives (which is the core sin from which all sins flow), accept the forgiveness and acceptance God offers through Jesus, and start living a life in which we attempt to be open to God's constant leadership. We're saved the moment we take such actions.

What happens over the course of such a life includes a great deal of joy, but it also includes God's opening our eyes along the way so that we begin to see where we're trying to hold on to control of some pocket or feature of our lives that runs counter to his intent. In my experience, most of these have to do with coming to grips with how self-centered we really are, how easily we slid into trying to control other people and God, and how easily we produce self-justifications. We grow as we come to see and deal with each separate area. The thing is that over the course of a human life, most of us never run out of additional areas to be recognized, confronted, and turned over to God. This is why the Apostle Paul can talk about salvation as a done deal and as something ongoing.

To summarize: We start our walk with God through a personal decision to turn loose of our lives, accept the forgiveness and acceptance of God, and begin a life in which we open ourselves to God's ongoing leadership. But we will deal with sin and sins all the days of our life on earth.

I hope this helps. If you want to talk the matter over, I'm available.

Exchange about child molestation...

I have a question and was hoping you could answer it.

Is there any sin that we have to stop in order to receive Christ and be saved?

Thanks,

Scott.

Answer from Baptist Church Senior Pastor

Yes, the sin of unbelief in Christ as your only Savior.

Followup Question

Thanks for your reply,

So does that mean a child molester would not have to stop molesting children in order to be saved?

Thanks,
Scott.

Followup answer.

That’s right.
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Acts 16:31 “. . . believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . .”

The Bible tells us that if we believe and receive the Lord Jesus we will be saved, whether you are a drunk, druggy, or even a molester. Although, if one truly gets saved he will stop those sins.
I Cor. 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”

We don’t change to get saved, we change because we’re saved. It is Christ in us that empowers us to change.
Phil. 4:13 “I can do all things through Christ which stengtheneth me.”
John 8:32 “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”

I trust this has been a help to you. Let me ask you a question; If you died right now, are you 100% sure you would go to heaven?

 

[Skinski7]

Those examples are very typical of the hundreds of answer I have received over the years. These people all believe that salvation has nothing to do with actually being set free from the bondage of sin, only the eternal consequences.

So while Pastors may say this...

Good afternoon and thank you for your email. I apologize for not getting back with you sooner.


The issue of a pornography without a doubt is THE problem in the church today. The issue of our standing with the Lord is an easy question to answer and we will start with that.


We know from the Bible that the sacrificial death of Christ did not just cover the sins of past, present, and future, it TOOK THEM AWAY! We know from Ephesians 1:6 that we are ACCEPTED already in the sight of God. There is nothing that we can do to gain more favor, and there is nothing we can do to have less favor. The wrath of God for our sins was settled on the Cross. To think differently negates the entire purpose of "Grace".


With that being said, (As Paul said in Romans) should we just not worry about our sins so that more grace can be displayed? Absolutely not! The issue of sin is not meant to make you walk around feeling guilty; neither are good deeds meant to make you feel righteous. What sin does in the life of a believer is two fold: 1. Quench your ability to effectively represent Christ 2. Steals the joy that you have in living a victorious life in Christ.


So does someone addicted to porn have to stop watching for God to forgive? No ... You are already FORGIVEN (you cant be punished for something Christ already paid for). Does a believer have to stop in order to reap the full blessings of God? Absolutely.


To answer the other question of HOW to stop? As silly as it sounds, you really have to just CHOOSE to stop. There simply is no medicine, magic word, or action that will break the chains of addiction. One of the biggest steps we encourage people in our church to take is to find a genuine accountability partner to be open and honest with -- Someone you can trust and talk about hard things with. Realize that you ARE NOT ALONE in this fight ... Statistics do not lie when it says that 7/10 "church-goers" are addicted to porn.


Many men (and women) beat themselves up over this issue and never find help. The victory has already been won in Christ (Romans 8)! Whether we claim that and run with it is up to us. Can pornography be beat? Yes -- But it takes a believer committed to change, seeing the damage it is doing to his or her witness, tired of living a "joy-less" life, and LOADS of accountability.


Im not sure if i answered your questions efficiently or not, but please feel free to contact me with any other questions or further explanation you may have!

The Bible says this...

Joh 5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

1Co_15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Eze_3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Remember...

Pro 13:19 The desire accomplished is sweet to the soul: but it is abomination to fools to depart from evil.

The fools teach that you can't depart from evil and therefore such a concept is an abomination to them.

Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

 

[Elin]

Question:
Does confessing and repenting of a known sin actually mean that one stops doing it?

For example, if an individual is addicted to pornography, gets drunk on a regular basis, lies, cheats or steals, do they have to actually stop doing these things before God will forgive them?


Answer from Senior Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, TN:
If you’re asking do you have to stop sinning in order to be saved, the answer is no. If that were the case, no one would be saved.


Answer from First Baptist Pastor, Knoxville, TN:
Insofar as I can tell, "stopping" a sin in order to be saved is not a New Testament idea.


Exchange about child molestation...
So does that mean a child molester would not have to stop molesting children in order to be saved?


Answer from Baptist Church Senior Pastor
That’s right.

The Bible tells us that if we believe and receive the Lord Jesus we will be saved, whether you are a drunk, druggy, or even a molester.
Although, if one truly gets saved he will stop those sins.

Agreed. . . .

 

[Skinski7]

Agreed. . . .

WHEN will the child molester stop Elin? You see it's all fluff. They'll say, "want to stop," "desire to stop," "will stop," "should stop." Yet WHEN does it stop?

You see a lot of Pastors will indeed say that the sin must stop at some stage otherwise one would have reason to doubt they were really saved. Yet WHEN does the sin actually stop?

In every single case when questioned further none of them can give a definitive answer. They all believe that one can be saved at the very same time as one is actually molesting a child.

I put it to you that is exactly what you believe too.


So Elin,

WHEN exactly does the the child molester who confesses their sinfulness and is forgiven in their sin actually stop molesting children?

 

[Skinski7]

None of these wolves preach repentance. They only preach a "confession of sinfulness" and because of this the iniquity is never purged from the heart of those who confess. All they do is confess, clean up their act a little or a lot and then carry on sinning, all the while believing that God is going to change them because they "trust Him." That is not what the Bible teaches.

The Bible teaches that the heart is changed via godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation. The sin stops in repentance because it is repentance that purges the heart of rebellion. It is then in YIELDING WHOLEHEARTEDLY to God that regeneration occurs.

One cannot be regenerated in their sins. One has to forsake their sin before one can be quickened. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith and FAITH IS OBEDIENCE FROM THE HEART. Faith is not passive trust one has whilst still in rebellion to God, that is the devils faith, a faith without deeds, a faith that will not save anyone.

 

[Elin]

What is the different between original sin and daily sin.

Question:
Does confessing and repenting of a known sin actually mean that one stops doing it?

For example, if an individual is addicted to pornography, gets drunk on a regular basis, lies, cheats or steals, do they have to actually stop doing these things before God will forgive them?


Answer from Senior Pastor of a Southern Baptist Church in Murfreesboro, TN:
If you’re asking do you have to stop sinning in order to be saved, the answer is no. If that were the case, no one would be saved.


Answer from First Baptist Pastor, Knoxville, TN:
Insofar as I can tell, "stopping" a sin in order to be saved is not a New Testament idea.


Exchange about child molestation...
So does that mean a child molester would not have to stop molesting children in order to be saved?


Answer from Baptist Church Senior Pastor
That’s right.

The Bible tells us that if we believe and receive the Lord Jesus we will be saved, whether you are a drunk, druggy, or even a molester.
Although, if one truly gets saved he will stop those sins.

Agreed. . . .

WHEN will the child molester stop Elin? You see it's all fluff. They'll say, "want to stop," "desire to stop," "will stop," "should stop." Yet WHEN does it stop?

You see a lot of Pastors will indeed say that the
sin must stop at some stage otherwise one would have reason to doubt they were really saved. Yet
WHEN does the sin actually stop?

You just don't get it, do you?

You just want God to be accountable to you.

If God saves them, he will complete the work the has begun (Php 1:6).

It might be best to mind your own business, and let God mind his.

You don't have a clue about what it means to be born again, and that's very revealing.

Likewise, it's pretty elementary that if God has not saved them, the sin will not stop.

What is it you are not getting about what the NT presents?