Trinity?

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E

ELECT

Guest
Re: You're reaching for the stars...

Here is your white throne...

Rev 20.11 And I saw a Great White Throne, and the One sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled; and a place was not found for them.



See how the earth is no longer?

How can The White throne reside upon the earth when it is gone...?


Come on...
interesting you seem to know alot of verses but lack understanding therefore the wicked will be judge in the space and the lake of fire is in space ok i wonder if the clouds is part of the earth or heaven that fled i just wonder ok earth and heaven flee away but leave the clouds which are part of thee
 
Feb 7, 2013
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Well hello!
All you Christians out there I want YOUR opinion!

I have studied this doctrine defined as the Trinity, and I tend to see a lot of issues with it. So I am just curious is someone that actually knows anything about it. (Not what you have always been taught, But what you have Studied) Would give me a brief but intellectual standpoint on it, in hopes of a discussion. What is the Trinity in your own words? And from a biblical point of view Why do you believe it?
Peace be with you and all. This question has been a controversial discussion that has happened in this forum. it is up to those who may be able to or not, receive the understanding of 'Trinity'. This is not something that one must be forced to understand immediately.

It is true there is no such word written in the New Testament. But there is written spiritual knowledge about the Heavenly manifestation of three living Spirit/spirit person and they lived as one person in the flesh here on earth, 'to take away the sins of this world'.

And believers are baptize in the name of the 'FATHER', 'SON' and the 'HOLY SPIRIT'. And why not under just one name only, that is the name of GOD?

Even today, as i have witness the living truth which was inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT through lame men to write, and as it is written and also as i was taught about them, i can talk about the 'Trinity' without using the word 'Trinity'.

For example, 'Our FATHER who live in Heaven' (first person) and HIS SPIRIT, 'the HOLY SPIRIT roams the earth' 'as like the wind', that 'you may hear the sound, but you may not know where it comes from and where it is going (third person)'. Then later came a flesh and blood, called JESUS the spirit-man from Heaven/Above, born second from Adam, in the fulness and likeness of HIS Creator, as the first one to be created in Heaven and second others in Heaven and on and under the earth 'by HIM and for HIM', in order one day to fully rule as 'LORD of Lords' and 'KING of Kings' (second person).

Today in the Kingdom of GOD, as usual GOS lives in Heaven and always seated on HIS Throne, And JESUS in Heaven at HIS right-hand, rule as LORD of Lords and KING of Kings, over all Powers, Authorities, Rulers and Forces. And to us born again, HE is our Great High Priest in Heaven who plead and pray to the FATHER for us. While the HOLY SPIRIT dwell in us and teach us the HOLY BIBLE, especially the New Testament.

So that JESUS and the FATHER (by the Help of the HOLY SPIRIT's teachings and guided practices), shall manifest in us to the world.

'Trinity' - three person but action in 'one image' and one likeness manifests in vessels and to people for salvation.

We cannot be considered as the 'forth person' because we are part of that 'one Body' of CHRIST, but in parts united in 'spirit and truth', by Spiritual knowledge grooming and knitted together for Good use.

i hope in the name of LORD JESUS CHRIST this prophesying is helpful to built up wisdom through spiritual understanding to given Kingdom Knowledge.

But truthfully the 'Agape' knowledge written in the New Testament and it's practices towards one another is greater than all Prophesy and etc. I Corinthians chapter 13, says that, 'i may be gifted and wise in prophesying, but if i have not loved others, i am nothing at all to the Kingdom judgement'.
 
J

jackamo

Guest
Have you ever heard of Interpolation? 1 Joh 5:7 is exactly that. This is where the translators side notes became part of the Bible. This does however not confirm Trinity, although many people/churches uses this as they know that everybody does not know the truth or perhaps they are also not aware of it. With regards to Joh 1:1, it confirms my teaching that originally God existed and He created the Word, His Son, also a God, before He gave up His deity to become man on this earth. This was part of God's Salvation Plan.
Wow, so you are now saying the Bible is flawed? That's just wrong. And your theory could not be true as 1 John is a letter to different churches, the verse I gave is also part pf a much larger essay, so it could not be a "translator's side note" without the whole essay being so. If you say one part of the Bible is flawed then how do you know that the whole Bible isn't flawed? And Jesus never gave up his deity, He was still God, but also a man.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Wow, so you are now saying the Bible is flawed? That's just wrong. And your theory could not be true as 1 John is a letter to different churches, the verse I gave is also part pf a much larger essay, so it could not be a "translator's side note" without the whole essay being so. If you say one part of the Bible is flawed then how do you know that the whole Bible isn't flawed? And Jesus never gave up his deity, He was still God, but also a man.
[HR][/HR] [h=1]The Johannine Comma[/h] [h=2](1 John 5:7-8)[/h] The so-called Johannine Comma (also called the Comma Johanneum) is a sequence of extra words which appear in 1 John 5:7-8 in some early printed editions of the Greek New Testament. In these editions the verses appear thus (we put backets around the extra words):
ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες [ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ] τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.
The King James Version, which was based upon these editions, gives the following translation:
For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth], the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts. They seem to have originated as a marginal note added to certain Latin manuscripts during the middle ages, which was eventually incorporated into the text of most of the later Vulgate manuscripts. In the Clementine edition of the Vulgate the verses were printed thus:
Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimonium dant [in caelo: Pater, Verbum, et Spiritus Sanctus: et hi tres unum sunt. 8 Et tres sunt, qui testimonium dant in terra:] spiritus, et aqua, et sanguis: et hi tres unum sunt.
From the Vulgate, then, it seems that the Comma was translated into Greek and inserted into some printed editions of the Greek text, and in a handful of late Greek manuscripts. All scholars consider it to be spurious, and it is not included in modern critical editions of the Greek text, or in the English versions based upon them. For example, the English Standard Version reads:
For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
We give below the comments of Dr. Bruce M. Metzger on 1 John 5:7-8, from his book, A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, 2nd ed. (Stuttgart, 1993).
[HR][/HR] After μαρτυροῦντες the Textus Receptus adds the following: ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος, καὶ τὸ Ἅγιον Πνεῦμα· καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἔν εἰσι. 8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ. That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.
[h=3](A) External Evidence.[/h] (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate. Four of the eight manuscripts contain the passage as a variant reading written in the margin as a later addition to the manuscript. The eight manuscripts are as follows:

  • 61: codex Montfortianus, dating from the early sixteenth century.
  • 88: a variant reading in a sixteenth century hand, added to the fourteenth-century codex Regius of Naples.
  • 221: a variant reading added to a tenth-century manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford.
  • 429: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Wolfenbüttel.
  • 629: a fourteenth or fifteenth century manuscript in the Vatican.
  • 636: a variant reading added to a sixteenth-century manuscript at Naples.
  • 918: a sixteenth-century manuscript at the Escorial, Spain.
  • 2318: an eighteenth-century manuscript, influenced by the Clementine Vulgate, at Bucharest, Rumania.
(2) The passage is quoted by none of the Greek Fathers, who, had they known it, would most certainly have employed it in the Trinitarian controversies (Sabellian and Arian). Its first appearance in Greek is in a Greek version of the (Latin) Acts of the Lateran Council in 1215.
(3) The passage is absent from the manuscripts of all ancient versions (Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, Arabic, Slavonic), except the Latin; and it is not found (a) in the Old Latin in its early form (Tertullian Cyprian Augustine), or in the Vulgate (b) as issued by Jerome (codex Fuldensis [copied a.d. 541-46] and codex Amiatinus [copied before a.d. 716]) or (c) as revised by Alcuin (first hand of codex Vallicellianus [ninth century]).
The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses: the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation that may have been written first as a marginal note that afterwards found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6, and 20.)
[h=3](B) Internal Probabilities.[/h] (1) As regards transcriptional probability, if the passage were original, no good reason can be found to account for its omission, either accidentally or intentionally, by copyists of hundreds of Greek manuscripts, and by translators of ancient versions.
(2) As regards intrinsic probability, the passage makes an awkward break in the sense.
For the story of how the spurious words came to be included in the Textus Receptus, see any critical commentary on 1 John, or Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, pp. 101 f.; cf. also Ezra Abbot, "I. John v. 7 and Luther's German Bible," in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays (Boston, 1888), pp. 458-463.
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
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Thanks for the above copypasta from here.

Yes, the Comma Johanneum is almost certainly not originally to 1 John 5, given it doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, nor many of the versions, nor in a widespread number of Greek manuscripts at all. Probably a fourth century addition that was never widely accepted in the Greek tradition until much later.

Of course, none of that really matters. The reality is that the divinity and humanity of Christ, his unity with the Father, and the Trinity are patently defensible from Scripture without the Comma, and was defended in various forms amongst the early fathers against specific heresies, some more explicitly than others (Tertullian, for instance, is the first to actually use that term in the third century) long before the Comma most probably became extant.

For instance, I think TruthfromFrank's assertion that John 1:1 teaches that God created the the Logos and that there were two Gods is simply an erroneous and requires some gymnastics, particularly what it means for the Word to be with God and to be God already at the beginning (i.e at the point at which time and our understanding of causality came into being), as opposed to him being created at the beginning. The Word being 'a god' is simply not a viable translation of the Greek text.
 
Nov 19, 2012
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...

interesting you seem to know alot of verses but lack understanding therefore the wicked will be judge in the space and the lake of fire is in space ok i wonder if the clouds is part of the earth or heaven that fled i just wonder ok earth and heaven flee away but leave the clouds which are part of thee

Go home and study...
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Thanks for the above copypasta from here.

Yes, the Comma Johanneum is almost certainly not originally to 1 John 5, given it doesn't appear in the earliest manuscripts, nor many of the versions, nor in a widespread number of Greek manuscripts at all. Probably a fourth century addition that was never widely accepted in the Greek tradition until much later.

Of course, none of that really matters. The reality is that the divinity and humanity of Christ, his unity with the Father, and the Trinity are patently defensible from Scripture without the Comma, and was defended in various forms amongst the early fathers against specific heresies, some more explicitly than others (Tertullian, for instance, is the first to actually use that term in the third century) long before the Comma most probably became extant.

For instance, I think TruthfromFrank's assertion that John 1:1 teaches that God created the the Logos and that there were two Gods is simply an erroneous and requires some gymnastics, particularly what it means for the Word to be with God and to be God already at the beginning (i.e at the point at which time and our understanding of causality came into being), as opposed to him being created at the beginning. The Word being 'a god' is simply not a viable translation of the Greek text.
how can scripture defend something that does not exist...your trinity is a figment of your imagination...there is one God and one Lord that is not a trinity...
 
Nov 19, 2012
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how can scripture defend something that does not exist...your trinity is a figment of your imagination...there is one God and one Lord that is not a trinity...

Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.
 
Mar 28, 2014
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Isa 54.5

For your Makers (plural) are your husbands (plural); Yahweh of Hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of all the earth.
still don't see trinity...Do you?
Revelation 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
 
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Mar 2, 2013
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Re: Wake up...

Both the subjects are at discussion and you need to explain it if you can.
 
Mar 2, 2013
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Wow, so you are now saying the Bible is flawed? That's just wrong. And your theory could not be true as 1 John is a letter to different churches, the verse I gave is also part pf a much larger essay, so it could not be a "translator's side note" without the whole essay being so. If you say one part of the Bible is flawed then how do you know that the whole Bible isn't flawed? And Jesus never gave up his deity, He was still God, but also a man.
My reference is not thumb sucked. It comes from the Interlinear Bible by Hendrickson 'Hebrew, Greek, English' where all non-scriptureal words are highlighted. Get yourself one and check before making comments you cannot substantiate with facts. With regards to Jesus being a God before He came to this earth can be proven from the Bible and so can the fact that Jesus Christ gave up His deity to become man, also been proven, and so can it also be proven that Jesus is still man in heaven and a separate entity from God. If you do not agree to this, you need to provide me with proof from the Bible alone to substantiate your statements.
 
Mar 2, 2013
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...

Wheather it is spiritual or literal
Where will Jesus be during the 1000 yrs ?
Where will the Father be during the 1000 yrs ? thanks
Jesus will be in heaven during the 1000 years, with all the resurrected saved, to go through the judgment, especially the angels. He will not be on this earth as some churches teach.
 
Mar 2, 2013
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...

Bowman, are you a married man with children?
 
E

ELECT

Guest
Re: You're reaching for the stars...

Jesus will be in heaven during the 1000 years, with all the resurrected saved, to go through the judgment, especially the angels. He will not be on this earth as some churches teach.
the bible teaches He will be on the earth during the 1000 yrs

[h=1]Isaiah 24:23King James Version (KJV)[/h]23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
 
E

ELECT

Guest
Re: You're reaching for the stars...

Jesus will be in heaven during the 1000 years, with all the resurrected saved, to go through the judgment, especially the angels. He will not be on this earth as some churches teach.
Psalm 72:1-9King James Version (KJV)


72 Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.


2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.


3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.


4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.


5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.


6 He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.


7 In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.


8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.


9 They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
 
Mar 2, 2013
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...

the bible teaches He will be on the earth during the 1000 yrs

Isaiah 24:23King James Version (KJV)

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
1 Th 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. The we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
Here we can see the following:- The Lord will come on the cloud with the resurrection and He will NOT put His foot on this polluted earth. The saved will go up to Him, where He is, on the cloud. The resurrected saved will then go to where He came from, heaven, because it says to be with the Lord and that is exactly where He is right now. Now you may argue and say that in Isaiah it states that He will be on earth. This is true, but only after the 1000 years. The Jerusalem that is referenced to here is the New Jerusalem that Jesus is currently building and that New Jerusalem will come down to earth after the 1000 years and the reference to the moon and sun also gels with the new earth concept being taught in the Bible. I hope this clarifies the matter.
 
Mar 2, 2013
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Re: You're reaching for the stars...

And...?

How does this thwart The Trinity?

Do you even know what The Trinity even is...?







ROTFLOL!!!

So...you've identified God The Father and God The Son...is this a new discovery for you?

Now that you realize that they are NOT each other, your next step is to realize that each is the ONE God.

After you make this connection, then you will realize that The Triune God occupies ONE Throne.

You being so clever: - please explain this text Joh 5:22 "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son."
 
Oct 31, 2011
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As I try to think of this as my Lord is, I feel disgusted there is an argument about what scripture tells us of God. God has spoken.

Scripture speaks of the Father, that is God. Scripture speaks of the Son, that is also God. Scripture speaks of the Holy Spirit as God. Man has said that there are three ways God is spoken of, and man calls it a trinity. Three means trinity. There actually are three ways God is spoken of, it is the truth.

There is no scripture denying that these three are God. So what in the world is it you have to argue about?