Conditional Salvation

[elf3]

You wanted me to do your homework earlier and I will now use your comments to do so, because you are making the same claim howbeit, different words.

Actually I was asking for a little help but you are above that apparently.

First it has nothing to do with who is Sovereign. God is sovereign but He specifically created man to be free and be able to choose Him, to love Him or not to follow, love or obey.

It has everything to do with God being sovereign.

It does. That is the whole purpose of our existence and a moral obligation is part of being transformed into His likeness. It certainly does make us righteous. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.

How does this transformation come about?

He is always in control, but He also gave man freedom to act as moral agents. We can choose to abide by His rules or just ignore them and go our way. Passivity is hell.

actually your phrase is misplaced. If not for His grace and mercy mankind would still be under the dominion of Satan and would simply dissolve into dust, Gen 3:19.

Hell doesn't exist?

Christ saved the world from death and sin, which is the great gift of His mercy, love and grace. This aspect of our salvation man plays no part. However, Christ's purpose was to enable man to again be able to freely choose to be united with Him If we desire to be united with Him, He requires that we are to work with Him toward perfection, towards being transformed. That is not done simply by believing passively. One is required to grow, to mature, to be perfected in order to attain eternal life.

We have to be perfected to attain eternal life?

 

[konroh]

What you’ve just stated here is a false gospel. Show me a single passage of Scripture that says Christ’s righteousness is imputed to anyone. You won’t find one because that idea is not in the Scriptures.

2 Cor5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Imputed righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

2 Cor5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Imputed righteousness.

2 Cor 5:21 - this verse ends with "in Him".

So Christ's prefect righteousness is not transferred to the sinner but the sinner must obey the gospel by being baptized and then the sinner is place "in Him" Gal 3:27 where he is then covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

 

[SeaBass]

The fruit of the holy spirit is love.

Abide mean believe, entrust our life to Him.

So salvation is not by work but by entrust to Jesus, than Jesus cause us to bear the fruit/ lovely work.

work is product of salvation not all the way around.

Salvation produce good deed, good deeds not produce salvation.

Salvation is the manufacture of good deeds.

But good deeds is product not producer.

Jn 15:5,6 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Jesus tells his disciples (branches) to abide in Him and bear much fruit. If not, the disciple/branch is "cast forth". Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. Cast forth"into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell.

The intent of me posting the above from Jn 15 is to show one can fall away from Christ and become lost. As i posted " Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. He is cast forth "into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell."

 

[SeaBass]

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
(Gal 5:4)


You have lost your hold upon [sanctifying] grace. Gal 5:4 (Wuest)

There is nothing in the passage to say that the fall from grace is permanent. Turning back to faith in Christ restores the grace relationship...I'd go so far to say even that is only possible through His grace.

Now how can one lose "hold" of grace if they never had a hold on grace before?

If they repent, they can go back to having that "hold" on grace. If they do not repent they will not have that "hold" on grace and be lost.

 

[SeaBass]

No offense, but that language is equivocal (weasel words).
1) Leaving the gospel? You could say that you do that every time you come to this site. You hear the gospel, & leave without trusting Christ as only & sufficient Savior.

2) Quit obeying the truth? As the Lord tells us through his prophet Paul, there is none who does good, no not one. Thus the unsaved never obey the truth. Christians sin & when they do they "leave the truth of some commandment" temporarily. "Leave" is a weasel word.

Christians sin.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.
The gifts & calling of God are without repentance.



If you are asking if a Christian can sin, they answer is yes; in many ways we all stumble. But he who has been washed doesn't need a total bath, just his feet need cleaning.

But until you trust Christ as your Savior, & stop worshipping the water idol & your own works, you are unlikely to get it.

Gal 1:6.7 "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ."

Some in Galatia had left the gospel to follow after false teachings....they becomes lost, fell from grace.

Jn 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/738-are-we-under-law-or-grace

Here John calls Christ's NT gospel "grace" and contrasts it from the law of Moses. So when some of those at Galatia left Christ's NT gospel they fell from grace.

My question is: can one leave the gospel/quit obeying the truth and still be saved?

I did NOT ask if a Christian can sin but asked if a Christian leaves the gospel, (as some in Galatia did), can he still be saved OUTSIDE - WITHOUT the gospel of Christ?


You continue to take Jn 10:28 out of context and twist eternal security into it.

There are two sides to salvation:
1) Man's faithfulness to God
2) God's faithfulness to man

Jn 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;"
Jn 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

Verse 27 shows who qualifies as Christ's sheep > those that have a present tense ongoing hearing and following. So man's faithfulness to God in his hearing and following. And those sheep of Christ that God holds in His hand are faithful to God in their hearing and following God will be faithful to them by not allowing them to be snatched out of His hand. If one quits hearing and following becoming unfaithful, then he removes himself from God['s hand. No man-made eternal security in this passage at all.

 

[SeaBass]

There is two ways that a person can fall from grace... one can fall away from the grace of being draw by the Holy Spirit to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and and never believe and trust in the cross and blood of Christ. The second way is when a believer who has been saved by grace through faith through the finished work of the cross goes back under the law of the flesh instead of growing in grace and knowledge of Christ. These believers never get their heart established in grace and live as carnal believers through the laws of the flesh. They have a knowledge of the truth that was delivered them but they have difficulty in humbling themselves, taking up a cross, denying their flesh and following Christ by faith. They are saved because they believed in the righteousness of God through Christ but they they have not been converted like Peter illustrated before the cross.

They are believers who live according their impulses of the flesh and have not yet been transformed by the renewing of their mind. They are positionally crucified with Christ but not experientially. They are believers who are not being fed the word on a daily basis and the Holy Spirit is grieved in their life from bringing them into conviction for their daily walk. They regress away from grace and live a life of sublimation. They struggle with morality and those things that are contrary to the law of Christ and the Spirit. Their flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. This is not the life of a spiritual believer or one who walks in the Spirit. God has a plan to bring that believer into the fulness of God which can only be found in the body of Christ. They need to be around Spirit filled believer who walk in the light and live by the grace of God.

There are different sins a Christian can commit in order for him to fall from grace but the bottom line is he can fall from grace.

 

[Jackson123]

Jn 15:5,6 "I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Jesus tells his disciples (branches) to abide in Him and bear much fruit. If not, the disciple/branch is "cast forth". Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. Cast forth"into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell.

The intent of me posting the above from Jn 15 is to show one can fall away from Christ and become lost. As i posted " Logically one cannot be "cast forth" from the vine unless he was part of the vine. He is cast forth "into the fire, and they are burned", a description of hell."

OH ya but the fall one, welcome to re abide.

The point is only if you abide you will bear fruit. why you abide if you don't have a faith.

So Faith in Jesus is the root of salvation, not work.

 

[mailmandan]

2 Cor 5:21 - this verse ends with "in Him".

So Christ's prefect righteousness is not transferred to the sinner but the sinner must obey the gospel by

The sinner must obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

being baptized and then the sinner is place "in Him" Gal 3:27

We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ, not water baptized. 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. How does this happen? Ephesians 1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation - having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.

where he is then covered by Christ's perfect righteousness.

This takes place through faith prior to water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9).

 

[Cassian]

We have to be perfected to attain eternal life?

That is why man was created to work with God in this created order to attain immortality. Adam failed in this vocation, so Christ gives us immortality, but we still need to be perfected to attain eternal life. I John 2:5, Phil 3:12, Heb 12:23, Col 1:28, to be conformed to His Image, Rom 8:29, Eph 1:4 for starters.

 

[elf3]

That is why man was created to work with God in this created order to attain immortality. Adam failed in this vocation, so Christ gives us immortality, but we still need to be perfected to attain eternal life. I John 2:5, Phil 3:12, Heb 12:23, Col 1:28, to be conformed to His Image, Rom 8:29, Eph 1:4 for starters.

So before we die we must be perfect? Is that what you are saying?

 

[Atwood]

That is why man was created to work with God in this created order to attain immortality. Adam failed in this vocation, so Christ gives us immortality, but we still need to be perfected to attain eternal life. I John 2:5, Phil 3:12, Heb 12:23, Col 1:28, to be conformed to His Image, Rom 8:29, Eph 1:4 for starters.

For starters, you might start quoting your verses refs & arguing from them. Are you pasting from somewhere? Your verses do not teach your heresies. Salvation is not of works. Eternal life is the free gift of God for believing in the Son of God.
None of your verses teach salvation by working with God. In fact, salvation is resting in the Savior who says to come to Him & He will give you rest.

Salvation is only by grace through faith, apart from works. And the only thing a man can do to be saved is believe on the Lord Jesus (& thou shalt be saved).

Gal 3:

This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[FAITH ALONE; NO WORKS, NO WATER]
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]


For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]

Gal 3:22ff

But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6

For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faithworking through love.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Philip 3:8-9
Yea verily, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but refuse, that I may gain Christ, and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Col 2:6
As therefore ye received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and builded up in him, and established in your faith, even as ye were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
2 Tim 3:15b
the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:4
to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 3:19ff
And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. For we who have believed do enter into that rest;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 10:39
But we are not of them that shrink back unto perdition; but of them that havefaith unto the saving of the soul.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
​ [NO WORKS, NO WATER]

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guardedthrough faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? [And Revelation tells us that such believers are never blotted out!]
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]​

 

[Butch5]

Faith doesn't come out of works. Works comes out of faith. You are just reading and not studying. For if we are justified by our works then there would be a couple of verses that contradict your understanding. Verses like Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 4:1-12 Romans 3:27-31

And citing Eph 2:8 where does God tell us, through the writing of Paul, our faith comes from? "...through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."

Elf3,

I do study, that's why I take "All" of the passages the pertain to a subject and I harmonize them. If you notice I took Paul's writings in Romans 3 and 4, and Ephesians 2 and I harmonized them with the writing of James. I didn't sweep one of them aside or try to make one of them say something that he is not saying. I took both writers and harmonized both of their writings. You know you've come to a correct understanding of the Scriptures when everything fits together and harmonizes.

James plainly says that a man is justified by works and not by faith only. However, because so many misunderstand Paul's teaching on works they try to change what James said however they can.

Regarding James, yes he said his faith came out of his works, Young's literal translated uses those very words.

YLT James 2:18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: (Jam 2:18 YLT)

He uses the Greek word "ek".

 

[Butch5]

Well you said it "pride". You could also add wanting to be in control. Adding our work to any part of God's work is a way of putting us in control which is what you are doing.

You're welcome to address the arguments I've made.

 

[Butch5]

If you happen to notice many of the most heated debates on this line all have one major underlying theme. Who is in control? We add a condition to grace. We add works to almost every major theme...salvation, justification and sactification. We want to be in control! God is Sovereign we are not. We still have, as Christians, a moral obligation to God, but that obligation does not save, justify or make us righteous before God. Only Christ can fill that role. Personally I am perfectly fine with God being in control. He created us he can destroy us. If it wasn't for His grace and mercy we would all be in hell.

I have complete faith and trust in God! Because of my faith I will glorify Him and I will do the good works he has in store for me. Not because my works will save me but because God deserves all I can give for Him because He gave Himself willingly for me!

Sovereign doesn't mean control, it means to be the ultimate authority. God is the ultimate authority no matter who is in control. We can have our opinions but they don't change what the Scriptures say. James said faith without works is dead. That means that in order for faith to be alive (and able to produce anything) it must have works.

 

[Butch5]

2 Cor5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Imputed righteousness.

That's not imputed righteousness, as a matter of fact the passage says nothing about imputation.

 

[Butch5]

Paul explains it pretty clearly.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. (1Co 10:1-12 NKJ)

 

[Cassian]

So before we die we must be perfect? Is that what you are saying?

absolutely not. It is a progressive journey. We will be doing this in eternity. We can never achieve perfection because we are not God. We will always be created creatures. But that surely does not mean we just idly stand by and do nothing.

 

[Radius]

Rom. 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

 

[elf3]

You're welcome to address the arguments I've made.

Butch5, I will address your arguments but it may be a bit. I, um, kinda need to condense my argument.....it's a bit long and I don't wanna use too much space if you know what I mean lol

Not trying to be rude or anything like that. Ok.