Conditional Salvation

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
My original point was and still is that Paul equated leaving the gospel/quit obeying the truth with falling from grace.
No offense, but that language is equivocal (weasel words).
1) Leaving the gospel? You could say that you do that every time you come to this site. You hear the gospel, & leave without trusting Christ as only & sufficient Savior.

2) Quit obeying the truth? As the Lord tells us through his prophet Paul, there is none who does good, no not one. Thus the unsaved never obey the truth. Christians sin & when they do they "leave the truth of some commandment" temporarily. "Leave" is a weasel word.

Christians sin.
I give them eternal life, & they shall never perish.
The gifts & calling of God are without repentance.

So my question still remains: can one leave the gospel/quit obeying the truth and still be saved?
If you are asking if a Christian can sin, they answer is yes; in many ways we all stumble. But he who has been washed doesn't need a total bath, just his feet need cleaning.

But until you trust Christ as your Savior, & stop worshipping the water idol & your own works, you are unlikely to get it.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
The fruit of the holy spirit is love.

Abide mean believe, entrust our life to Him.
I don't know why you say that.
Abide means remain means stay.
If you abide in a chair, you don't get out.
Why didn't you capitalize Holy Spirit?

Abide in Christ means to maintain fellowship with Him.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
Cassian could you please restate your argument? I tried to go back and find it but I couldn't. I would like to start from square one.
As a rule, from what I have read of Cassian, he does make Bible arguments quoting scripture; he is wont to just pontificate with no Bible quotes. He just says things, perhaps repeating his denominational line, without Bible proof. I suspect that the reason for this is that He thinks His denomination is the superior to the Bible (the Bible is only to be believed becs the denomination says so & interpreted only as the denomination says so).

Don't expect Bible proof from him, just Him declaring things ex cathedra.
 
B

BradC

Guest
You posted above " By doing so they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them...."

So if they had fallen from the grace that was given to save them, then how could they still be saved but NOT be in the grace that was meant to save them?


My original point was and still is that Paul equated leaving the gospel/quit obeying the truth with falling from grace.

So my question still remains: can one leave the gospel/quit obeying the truth and still be saved?
There is two ways that a person can fall from grace... one can fall away from the grace of being draw by the Holy Spirit to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and and never believe and trust in the cross and blood of Christ. The second way is when a believer who has been saved by grace through faith through the finished work of the cross goes back under the law of the flesh instead of growing in grace and knowledge of Christ. These believers never get their heart established in grace and live as carnal believers through the laws of the flesh. They have a knowledge of the truth that was delivered them but they have difficulty in humbling themselves, taking up a cross, denying their flesh and following Christ by faith. They are saved because they believed in the righteousness of God through Christ but they they have not been converted like Peter illustrated before the cross.

They are believers who live according their impulses of the flesh and have not yet been transformed by the renewing of their mind. They are positionally crucified with Christ but not experientially. They are believers who are not being fed the word on a daily basis and the Holy Spirit is grieved in their life from bringing them into conviction for their daily walk. They regress away from grace and live a life of sublimation. They struggle with morality and those things that are contrary to the law of Christ and the Spirit. Their flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. This is not the life of a spiritual believer or one who walks in the Spirit. God has a plan to bring that believer into the fulness of God which can only be found in the body of Christ. They need to be around Spirit filled believer who walk in the light and live by the grace of God.
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
As a rule, from what I have read of Cassian, he does [NOT] make Bible arguments quoting scripture; he is wont to just pontificate with no Bible quotes. He just says things, perhaps repeating his denominational line, without Bible proof. I suspect that the reason for this is that He thinks His denomination is the superior to the Bible (the Bible is only to be believed becs the denomination says so & interpreted only as the denomination says so).

Don't expect Bible proof from him, just Him declaring things ex cathedra.

LOL -- I left out a word by accident, the word NOT.

It should read, "he does NOT make Bible arguments quoting scripture; . . . ."
 

Atwood

Senior Member
May 1, 2014
4,995
53
48
There is two ways that a person can fall from grace... one can fall away from the grace of being draw by the Holy Spirit to the saving knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ and and never believe and trust in the cross and blood of Christ. The second way is when a believer who has been saved by grace through faith through the finished work of the cross goes back under the law of the flesh instead of growing in grace and knowledge of Christ. These believers never get their heart established in grace and live as carnal believers through the laws of the flesh. They have a knowledge of the truth that was delivered them but they have difficulty in humbling themselves, taking up a cross, denying their flesh and following Christ by faith. They are saved because they believed in the righteousness of God through Christ but they they have not been converted like Peter illustrated before the cross.

They are believers who live according their impulses of the flesh and have not yet been transformed by the renewing of their mind. They are positionally crucified with Christ but not experientially. They are believers who are not being fed the word on a daily basis and the Holy Spirit is grieved in their life from bringing them into conviction for their daily walk. They regress away from grace and live a life of sublimation. They struggle with morality and those things that are contrary to the law of Christ and the Spirit. Their flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. This is not the life of a spiritual believer or one who walks in the Spirit. God has a plan to bring that believer into the fulness of God which can only be found in the body of Christ. They need to be around Spirit filled believer who walk in the light and live by the grace of God.
Basically a good post Brad.

The flesh lusts vs the Spirit & the Spirit vs the flesh. This is stated as a fact; it is not a malady that only some Christians experience. If we say that we have no Sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us. Taking "lust" to mean to have a strong desire to do something that the Lord forbids then, we understand that the flesh is like a disembodied ghost hovering in the background. No one can stop the flesh from exerting its opinions & desires. The Spirit also exerts his strong desires. The Christian cannot stop his flesh from lusting, but he can walk by the Spirit & thus not fulfill the lust of the flesh. This lust of the flesh is not a sin in the Christian, but a temptation to sin. The fact that the flesh wants something sinful to be done does not mean that the Christian wants to do something wrong. There is this distinction between an unavoidable temptation and actually going along with it and lusting.

This is the life of a spiritual believer. He ever has to shun the lust of the flesh and go with the lust of the Spirit.

Spirit-filling comes & goes. Christians at times do utterly selfless loving acts, and at other times they stumble in many things. The transformation comes & goes in expression. The Old Man may be the current clothes or the New Man, the Lord Jesus (put on the Lord Jesus and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill its lusts).

rom 13: 11 And this, knowing the season, that already it is time for you to awake out of sleep: for now is salvation nearer to us than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, and the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk becomingly, as in the day; not in revelling and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

The desires of the flesh will ever be there, but we do not have to fulfill them.

Using your Peter expression, the Christian is like Peter walking on water miraculously while looking at the Lord Jesus. Peter cannot stop the winds & waves; but he does not have to stare at them & start sinking. But if he does sink, the Lord Jesus will not let him drown.


 
E

elf3

Guest
the discourse between myself and dcontroversal begins with post #149 where I quoted a response he made in post #147.
I responded back in post #150 and decontroversal followed up with post 151, then my post of 152 to which you are now responding in post #235.

It should become manifest from his post and my comments as to what I am asking regarding his statement.

You also included a response from notuptome which is of a different context than the above.
You know when I think about it...this answer is kind of an "I'm better than you do it yourself" answer.
Very nice such a humble guy you are.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
You know when I think about it...this answer is kind of an "I'm better than you do it yourself" answer.
Very nice such a humble guy you are.
follow the thread. It is all there, why the need to repeat everything because someone cannot follow along.
 
C

ChristIsGod

Guest
So true. To say that just by believing that Christ paid for our sins, through Christ we can be saved is not saying we are saved.

Matthew 7:13-13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

A road to destruction is made by leaving out one of the mileposts. By either using works to gain salvation, or by using not working for our walk after we are saved. By saying we have faith in what the Lord tells us, but then refusing to use those words for how we live.

It is like following a beam of light as we walk. If we go to the right or left we are out of the light and miss the road.

There are many teachers of the bible who give false directions.
Amen, Sister!

I wonder if anyone that has a concordance would look up the word "works" and see how many times and in what ways that one word is used.

There's "the works of the law", which we are not saved by.
There's "the works of flesh", which are following what our flesh desires instead of what The Spirit requires of us.
There's "the works of the devil", which is self-explanatory.
There's "the works of The Father" - which Jesus displayed and if we are walking after His Spirit and not the flesh, these we will do also - And be judged by - according to His Word from what's written in Matthew - James - Peter - Revelation, etc..

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father......" 1Pet 1:2

God knows who of us will remain faithful until the end. Those are they that are 'chosen/elect' [same word].

To whom it may concern: Please don't throw away the word "works" until you've done a N.T. search for how many times that word is used and how.


Good thread, and timely as well.
Thank you!
 
E

elf3

Guest
follow the thread. It is all there, why the need to repeat everything because someone cannot follow along.
All I can do is laugh at this response. How does that song go? Oh yeah.."I see your true colors shining through".
 
E

elf3

Guest
follow the thread. It is all there, why the need to repeat everything because someone cannot follow along.
As a rule, from what I have read of Cassian, he does make Bible arguments quoting scripture; he is wont to just pontificate with no Bible quotes. He just says things, perhaps repeating his denominational line, without Bible proof. I suspect that the reason for this is that He thinks His denomination is the superior to the Bible (the Bible is only to be believed becs the denomination says so & interpreted only as the denomination says so).

Don't expect Bible proof from him, just Him declaring things ex cathedra.
Now I understand this response from Atwood. You really do think your better. Fine just say it.
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
Still doesn't change that you have Romans and james out of context and depends on your definition of "works play a roll in salvation".
I don't have them out of context, just look at the passages.

NKJ Romans 3:1 What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.
3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?
4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged1."
5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.)
6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?
7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
8 And why not say, "Let us do evil that good may come "?-- as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just.
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one1."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit1"; "The poison of asps is under their lips2";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness1."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known1."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes1."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all1 who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also,
30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.


NKJ Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh1?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness1."
(Rom 3:1-3 NKJ)

Paul's argument is that no one is justified by the deeds of the Law, but rather by faith. He not talking about helping old ladies cross the street, he's talking about being circumcised and observing the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, such as the ritual washings and the dietary laws etc.

On the other hand, James is talking good deeds that one does.

NKJ James 2:1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool,"
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts?
7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery1," also said, "Do not murder2." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your1 works, and I will show you my faith by my2 works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe-- and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead1?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness1." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
(Jam 2:1-26 NKJ)

Paul is addressing the keeping of the Mosaic Law as a means of justification and says that it is by faith and not the works of the Law. James on the other hand is addressing how believers should conduct themselves with their fellow man. These are not the same works.
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
Works follow salvation and are an evidence of salvation. Eph 2:10

Works always flow out of salvation they never flow into salvation. As branches we bear the fruit that is produced by the Holy Spirit in us.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, if you read James he said his faith comes out of his works. If his faith comes out of his works then the works must be there before faith can come out of them
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
Dunno if you hold to some form of extreme dispensationalism. Of course all of God's words applies to all christians, regardless if they are of israelitish or pagan origins (see 1Cor.10:1-11).
What I hold to is a proper reading of the Scriptures. The Scriptures were written to different people through the Bible. While Christians can read the Scriptures and derive concepts from them, they cannot just randomly apply passages of Scripture however they see fit. Isaiah was a prophet who was sent to the Jews, in Isaiah 64 he is interceding on to on behalf of Israel, he’s not making a universal statement about mankind.

[SUP]5[/SUP] Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
[SUP]6[/SUP] But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
[SUP]7[/SUP] And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. {consumed: Heb. melted} {because: Heb. by the hand}
[SUP]8[/SUP] But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
[SUP]9[/SUP] Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
[SUP]10[/SUP] Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
[SUP]11[/SUP] Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
[SUP]12[/SUP] Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore? (Isa 64:5-12 KJV)


There is much in scripture of us seeking the righteousness of God, and while having it having full assurance of our right standing with Him. If you do want to trust this and instead establish your own righteousness, and strive to become the righteousness of God of your own, then you are bound to keep the entire law of God, every jot and tittle of it, and not fail, transgress or sin in any one single point. Meaning, you must live exactly as Jesus did. The problem is that you are not doing that and you can never do that. That is why you need to be convicted of your sinful state and begin to trust the only remedy for it.
As I said, there’s nothing in the Scriptures about people possessing God’s righteousness. Jesus told His disciples that “their” righteousness needed to surpass that of the Pharisees. He didn’t say anything about His own righteousness.

As far as one’s own righteousness, it is obtained through faith. The Law was for the Jews so it’s not really relevant to the discussion. If you look at Romans 4 you’ll see that it was Abraham’s faith that was counted as righteousness, he was justified and considered righteous because of his faith, not because he had God righteousness.


So can you tell us what you are doing to be more righteous than the Pharisees? In practice, how does that work out for you? You may now enlighten us all as to how you want to work out your own salvation through establishing a righteousness of your own.
It’s through faith, but you didn’t address Jesus’ words. How do you reconcile Christ’s statement with yours?


The context of the entirety of scripture about the matter is that good works are a fruit of salvation. They are not any condition for same. For regenerate believers good works are motivated by the peace they have with God, by the gratitude they have for being redeemed and quickened while being yet dead in their sins. They are not motivated by: do this and you will get that. They are motivated by: I do this because I already have that. Huge difference.
You might want to check again. Jesus said anyone who is in Him and does not bear fruit will be cut off and gathered for burning. He also told the disciples to strive to enter into salvation.

[SUP]23[/SUP] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[SUP]24[/SUP] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
(Luk 13:23-24 KJV)
You can also look at Deuteronomy 28 where the Lord promised the blessings and curses, blessings if they kept His Law and curses if they didn’t.

If our good works are not motivated by thankfulness for being saved by the Savior but instead are motivated by a self righteous effort to merit salvation, then they are dead works, not pleasing to God, bearing fruit unto death.
This is a straw man argument. No one is suggesting meriting salvation.

Christians reject false gospels of salvation conditioned on the sinner, as opposed to the true gospel of salvation conditioned solely on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ.
What you’ve just stated here is a false gospel. Show me a single passage of Scripture that says Christ’s righteousness is imputed to anyone. You won’t find one because that idea is not in the Scriptures.
 
May 2, 2014
1,060
12
0
The passage doesn't say that hope is a means of salvation, but that our final salvation is incomplete & hoped for (expected). Passage is irrelevant to the means of salvation.



The passage doesn't say what saved Zacc. If it said that restitution saved, then you might have an argument. But since the passage does not offer salvation for anything, but just records that it happened, you have no argument.

Faith is not argued from silence, but from scripture presented over & over; too much for one post. It is no fallacious conclusion to believe God's Word. God is not a false-advertiser.

The fact that faith alone is the responsibility man has for salvation, but no water is mentioned, proves that water is not essential to salvation.

Heb 11:7

By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

1 Pet 1:3ff

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. 5 And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Whosoever believeth rules out any addition as essential to salvation.

The only MUST I DO for salvation is to believe in the Son of God:

Sirs what MUST I DO to be saved?
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, & you shall be saved.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

I think you missed my point, your argument is fallacious. You take passages of Scripture that deal with a certain issue and post them while ignoring other passages that deal with the issue. The proper way to come to the truth of Scripture is to take all of the passages that deal with a subject and harmonize them.

Would you say one of these passages was wrong, and if so which one?

55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid.
56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.


NKJ Luke 24:1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them1, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared.
2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. (Luk 23:55-2 NKJ)




NKJ Mark 16:1 Now when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
2 Very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3 And they said among themselves, "Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?" (Mar 16:1-3 NKJ)
 
E

elf3

Guest
Actually, if you read James he said his faith comes out of his works. If his faith comes out of his works then the works must be there before faith can come out of them
Faith doesn't come out of works. Works comes out of faith. You are just reading and not studying. For if we are justified by our works then there would be a couple of verses that contradict your understanding. Verses like Ephesians 2:8,9 Romans 4:1-12 Romans 3:27-31

And citing Eph 2:8 where does God tell us, through the writing of Paul, our faith comes from? "...through faith and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God."
 
E

elf3

Guest
What's tragic is how pride keeps so many Christians from learning the truth of Scripture
Well you said it "pride". You could also add wanting to be in control. Adding our work to any part of God's work is a way of putting us in control which is what you are doing.
 
E

elf3

Guest
What's tragic is how pride keeps so many Christians from learning the truth of Scripture
If you happen to notice many of the most heated debates on this line all have one major underlying theme. Who is in control? We add a condition to grace. We add works to almost every major theme...salvation, justification and sactification. We want to be in control! God is Sovereign we are not. We still have, as Christians, a moral obligation to God, but that obligation does not save, justify or make us righteous before God. Only Christ can fill that role. Personally I am perfectly fine with God being in control. He created us he can destroy us. If it wasn't for His grace and mercy we would all be in hell.

I have complete faith and trust in God! Because of my faith I will glorify Him and I will do the good works he has in store for me. Not because my works will save me but because God deserves all I can give for Him because He gave Himself willingly for me!
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
If you happen to notice many of the most heated debates on this line all have one major underlying theme. Who is in control? We add a condition to grace. We add works to almost every major theme...salvation, justification and sactification. We want to be in control! God is Sovereign we are not. We still have, as Christians, a moral obligation to God, but that obligation does not save, justify or make us righteous before God. Only Christ can fill that role. Personally I am perfectly fine with God being in control. He created us he can destroy us. If it wasn't for His grace and mercy we would all be in hell.

I have complete faith and trust in God! Because of my faith I will glorify Him and I will do the good works he has in store for me. Not because my works will save me but because God deserves all I can give for Him because He gave Himself willingly for me!
You wanted me to do your homework earlier and I will now use your comments to do so, because you are making the same claim howbeit, different words.

First it has nothing to do with who is Sovereign. God is sovereign but He specifically created man to be free and be able to choose Him, to love Him or not to follow, love or obey.

We still have, as Christians, a moral obligation to God, but that obligation does not save, justify or make us righteous before God. Only Christ can fill that role.
It does. That is the whole purpose of our existence and a moral obligation is part of being transformed into His likeness. It certainly does make us righteous. We are as righteous as we do righteousness, I John 3:7.

Personally I am perfectly fine with God being in control. He created us he can destroy us.
He is always in control, but He also gave man freedom to act as moral agents. We can choose to abide by His rules or just ignore them and go our way. Passivity is hell.

If it wasn't for His grace and mercy we would all be in hell.
actually your phrase is misplaced. If not for His grace and mercy mankind would still be under the dominion of Satan and would simply dissolve into dust, Gen 3:19.

Christ saved the world from death and sin, which is the great gift of His mercy, love and grace. This aspect of our salvation man plays no part. However, Christ's purpose was to enable man to again be able to freely choose to be united with Him If we desire to be united with Him, He requires that we are to work with Him toward perfection, towards being transformed. That is not done simply by believing passively. One is required to grow, to mature, to be perfected in order to attain eternal life.