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C
Brother Bowman, one of my favorite verses on this particular topic is John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him.
Reminds me of Genesis 1:26.
One day I'd like to discuss with Scripture only, that picture that you have under your sign-on name. I've appreciated your posts that I've read so far but I find myself sort of cringing at that diagram and verses from His Word are coming to mind that I'd like to share regarding it. Would that be alright with you?
In the meantime, I have a question - two fairly popular pastor/teachers/apologists that are broadcasted on conservative Christian radio stations have said just this year that, 'Christians are not Monotheists'.
Could you say how that statement makes you feel or what you think about that?
I know how I felt, because one of them used it as what makes Christians different from Jews - in that they believe that those that believe in a Triune Godhead are not Monotheists. I was surprised the first time I heard it from one of them - but when hearing it again from a second 'apologist', I wondered what's happening in these days? Is this a part of the falling away from truth that we've been warned of? If the Shema is not monotheistic, what is?
Reminds me of Genesis 1:26.
One day I'd like to discuss with Scripture only, that picture that you have under your sign-on name. I've appreciated your posts that I've read so far but I find myself sort of cringing at that diagram and verses from His Word are coming to mind that I'd like to share regarding it. Would that be alright with you?
In the meantime, I have a question - two fairly popular pastor/teachers/apologists that are broadcasted on conservative Christian radio stations have said just this year that, 'Christians are not Monotheists'.
Could you say how that statement makes you feel or what you think about that?
I know how I felt, because one of them used it as what makes Christians different from Jews - in that they believe that those that believe in a Triune Godhead are not Monotheists. I was surprised the first time I heard it from one of them - but when hearing it again from a second 'apologist', I wondered what's happening in these days? Is this a part of the falling away from truth that we've been warned of? If the Shema is not monotheistic, what is?
C
Thank you Brother for your reply.
About the pastor that made the first comment that we're not monotheists - he was speaking on the differences between Christianity and 'other' religions -- he started with the Jews and said that the difference between them and us is that "they're monotheists and we're trinitarians". The other teacher was teaching on the trinity and said that we [meaning us Christians] are not monotheists. Neither mentioned Unitarians. They just do not believe that conventional Christianity is monotheistic because we're trinitarians.
Truthfully Brother, that broke my heart to hear that from the first pastor/teacher in particular, because he was the only one who's 1/2 hr messages I'd actually wait to come on to hear him. I won't write his name because I still respect him but am praying about this, hoping he will reconsider the whole of the Bible on that.
The second one is a big name as well and I felt that when he said it - that something is happening in the Reformed Camp that I never thought could/would. I appreciate any prayers over this because they both have a huge listening audience.
Bless any prayers added and those praying for His Body!
I'll do a second post on the other topic.
Thank you again!
About the pastor that made the first comment that we're not monotheists - he was speaking on the differences between Christianity and 'other' religions -- he started with the Jews and said that the difference between them and us is that "they're monotheists and we're trinitarians". The other teacher was teaching on the trinity and said that we [meaning us Christians] are not monotheists. Neither mentioned Unitarians. They just do not believe that conventional Christianity is monotheistic because we're trinitarians.
Truthfully Brother, that broke my heart to hear that from the first pastor/teacher in particular, because he was the only one who's 1/2 hr messages I'd actually wait to come on to hear him. I won't write his name because I still respect him but am praying about this, hoping he will reconsider the whole of the Bible on that.
The second one is a big name as well and I felt that when he said it - that something is happening in the Reformed Camp that I never thought could/would. I appreciate any prayers over this because they both have a huge listening audience.
Bless any prayers added and those praying for His Body!
I'll do a second post on the other topic.
Thank you again!
C
Well, it's been a long day but other than that - I do believe that you know the Scriptures well and will know which I am referring to when I mention them regarding 1st "the Holy Spirit" and I'll wait to post on Jesus more another time.
In 1Peter 1:11 - Peter is discussing the O.T. prophets and he states that "the Spirit of Christ within them" helped them to prophesy on the sufferings & the glory afterwards of Christ.
So here we have His Spirit called "the Spirit of Christ".
In Phil 1:19, Paul calls Him "the Spirit of Jesus Christ".
Of course you know He is also called "the Spirit of God".
So to say that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus nor God doesn't ring true to me - looking at every verse from Genesis on, regarding the names given to The Spirit.
As we both agree on John 14:23 ".... and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him." - I believe that we are seeing that this "compound unity" of the Three in One are Absolutely Co-Equal. Though I do fully believe that GOD is tripartite - I do believe that we don't realize just how "One" He is. I compare it to "let us make man in Our image" as us being tripartite as well - body, soul and spirit make up one person.
In His case, the three in One is One God. I do not believe these are just different manifestations of God as some do - but through-out the O.T. - "Who" is "speaking"? Who is called The LORD of Hosts? and so forth through-out His Word. All the Names for God are interchangable from O.T. to New for The LORD. Jesus calling Himself "I AM", etc.. Jesus saying, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father" [Is 9:6] I don't believe the Oneness/Jesus Only belief neither. I believe in 'God Only' Who is Three in One but so much more co-equally that we with our small minds compared to His, just have problems seeing how One He is, but the Scriptures bare witness that The Lord our God is one Lord, as Jesus said.
I can't say that One is not the Other.
God bless you!
In 1Peter 1:11 - Peter is discussing the O.T. prophets and he states that "the Spirit of Christ within them" helped them to prophesy on the sufferings & the glory afterwards of Christ.
So here we have His Spirit called "the Spirit of Christ".
In Phil 1:19, Paul calls Him "the Spirit of Jesus Christ".
Of course you know He is also called "the Spirit of God".
So to say that the Holy Spirit is not Jesus nor God doesn't ring true to me - looking at every verse from Genesis on, regarding the names given to The Spirit.
As we both agree on John 14:23 ".... and We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him." - I believe that we are seeing that this "compound unity" of the Three in One are Absolutely Co-Equal. Though I do fully believe that GOD is tripartite - I do believe that we don't realize just how "One" He is. I compare it to "let us make man in Our image" as us being tripartite as well - body, soul and spirit make up one person.
In His case, the three in One is One God. I do not believe these are just different manifestations of God as some do - but through-out the O.T. - "Who" is "speaking"? Who is called The LORD of Hosts? and so forth through-out His Word. All the Names for God are interchangable from O.T. to New for The LORD. Jesus calling Himself "I AM", etc.. Jesus saying, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father" [Is 9:6] I don't believe the Oneness/Jesus Only belief neither. I believe in 'God Only' Who is Three in One but so much more co-equally that we with our small minds compared to His, just have problems seeing how One He is, but the Scriptures bare witness that The Lord our God is one Lord, as Jesus said.
I can't say that One is not the Other.
God bless you!
Thanks for sharing....
I would have to agree that, when compared to Judaism, true Christians need to be referred to as Trinitarian....as Jews are Unitarian.
Huge difference, obviously, and distinction is justified.
The old moniker of the 'Big Three Monotheistic ' religions is somewhat of a misnomer, as true Christians then become lumped with islam and jews - who are both Unitarian.
While the Holy Spirit IS God....He is NOT Jesus...
And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I am coming to you. Yet a little while and the world no longer sees Me, but you see Me. Because I live, you also shall live. In that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. He that has My commandments and keeps them, it is that one who loves Me; and the one that loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I shall love him and will reveal Myself to him. Judas said to Him, not the Iscariot, Lord, what has happened that You are about to reveal Yourself to us and not at all to the world? Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father shall love him. And We will come to him and will make a dwelling place with him. The one who does not love Me does not keep My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father who sent Me. I have spoken these things to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and shall remind you of all things that I said to you. I leave peace to you; My peace I give to you. Not as the world gives I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, nor let it be timid. You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I. And now I have told you before it occurs, that when it shall occur you may believe. I shall no longer speak many things with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. But that the world may know that I love the Father, even as the Father commanded Me, so I do. Rise up, let us go from here.(John 14.16 – 31)
As context reveals, that while The Comforter is sent in Jesus’ name, He is most definitely NOT Jesus.
Context shows that Father, Son and Spirit are present with the believers.
This is The Trinity!
And when the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who proceeds from the Father, that One will witness concerning Me.(John 15.26)
Each is the One God...but each is not the other...
Take a look at the OT example from the Burning Bush...
Exodus 3.1 - 6
And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up!And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me.And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face,for he feared to look upon The Gods.
These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.
Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.
Who occupied the burning bush?
Take a look at the OT example from the Burning Bush...
Exodus 3.1 - 6
And Moses was feeding the flock of his father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock behind the wilderness and came to the mountain of The Gods, to Horeb. And Malek Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire from the middle of a thorn bush. And he looked, and behold, the thorn bush was burning with fire, and the thorn bush was not burned up!And Moses said, I will turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thorn bush is not burned up. And Yahweh saw that he turned aside to see, and Elohim called to him from the midst of the thorn bush, and said, Moses! Moses! And he said, Behold me.And He said, Do not come near here. Pull off your sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.And He said, I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face,for he feared to look upon The Gods.
These verses tell us plainly that Moses both saw and spoke with Malek Yahweh (i.e. God the Son) in the midst of the fire.
Observe that the Triune God occupies the Mount (Moses came to the mountain of all The Gods ‘Ha- Elohim’), as the terms Yahweh, Elohim, Malek Yahweh & Ha- Elohim (literally all The Gods!) are used interchangeably.
Who occupied the burning bush?
- Malek Yahweh
- Yahweh
- Elohim
- The Gods (Ha Elohim)
C
I don't believe that seeing Elohim as plural should be interpreted as 3 seperate gods. That and other portions of your replies imply that Christians are polytheistic. I'm not a unitarian, but I suppose that I'm seeing this through a Christian Jew's perspective and believe that the main clincher in the Shema is that God is tripartite but One [echâd] - not three gods - and mainly because of how much He has said of Himself in His Word.
The Theophanies that we find in the O.T. are also called Christophanies - and both are the case.
I do believe that we see the plurality of Elohim differently. There are more uses for H430 than just 'gods' - actually used 13 different ways - looking at a Hebrew concordance. There's a difference between tripartite and 3 gods but both are plural.
And I cannot see how the Holy Spirit is called "the Spirit of Christ/Jesus" and yet not be 'equal' to Him. Co-equality does not take away from the plurality, yet I fear that many have lessened the co-equality with the plurality ... even to having Jesus as a 'lesser god' then GOD and the Spirit as an "it".
For now, I'd like to just leave a very few verses that emphasize the "echad" that Jesus even stressed by quoting Deut 6:4.
Thank you again for sharing your view!
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
1Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
Isaiah 43:10 You are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant [Israel] whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.
:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me, there is no Saviour.
Isaiah 45:5,6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:21 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me.
2Corth 6:18 And I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Rev 21:6,7 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.
The Theophanies that we find in the O.T. are also called Christophanies - and both are the case.
I do believe that we see the plurality of Elohim differently. There are more uses for H430 than just 'gods' - actually used 13 different ways - looking at a Hebrew concordance. There's a difference between tripartite and 3 gods but both are plural.
And I cannot see how the Holy Spirit is called "the Spirit of Christ/Jesus" and yet not be 'equal' to Him. Co-equality does not take away from the plurality, yet I fear that many have lessened the co-equality with the plurality ... even to having Jesus as a 'lesser god' then GOD and the Spirit as an "it".
For now, I'd like to just leave a very few verses that emphasize the "echad" that Jesus even stressed by quoting Deut 6:4.
Thank you again for sharing your view!
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
Deut. 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.
Deut. 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD He is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.
1Kings 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
Isaiah 43:10 You are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant [Israel] whom I have chosen: that you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me.
:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside Me, there is no Saviour.
Isaiah 45:5,6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: that they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isaiah 45:21 Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like Me.
2Corth 6:18 And I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Rev 21:6,7 And He said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be My son.