The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

[newbirth]

Yeah I know.......the bible simply teaches believe and you have everlasting life.....baptism is the public testimony of acceptance and belief into the resurrection of Jesus......

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.


you miss the point as to what it means to believe in Christ....

 

[dcontroversal]

did you miss the part where it says faith without works is dead? and what do they preach...is it the same as Philip and Peter.....?

No, I didn't miss that, but it is obvious you miss a few things such as....

1. Context...James said SHOW ME your faith
2. LIKE A CORPSE

PAUL said a MAN is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH....so go study the word JUSTIFIED as it is a legal term.....maybe you will understand that it is FAITH that justifies us before GOD and BEFORE MEN our FAITH is seen in the works we do which by the way have NO bearing upon our justification before GOD.......

 

[newbirth]

No, I didn't miss that, but it is obvious you miss a few things such as....

1. Context...James said SHOW ME your faith
2. LIKE A CORPSE

PAUL said a MAN is JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH....so go study the word JUSTIFIED as it is a legal term.....maybe you will understand that it is FAITH that justifies us before GOD and BEFORE MEN our FAITH is seen in the works we do which by the way have NO bearing upon our justification before GOD.......

and you cannot show because your faith is void of works...

Titus 1:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

 

[dcontroversal]

I admire your credentials but even the wisest man to ever live had issues being true and righteous with God. It doesn't matter how much or long you study, that doesn't kill all room for error. So let's take that my faith alone saves me idea. I have Beleif (Faith) in God but I do nothing to help others, the church, or anyone. I turn my back against anything God says to do, but I still have faith in Him am I still saved in faith alone? As I murder someone, get caught stealing, lie constantly, but I still believe having faith in God. Am I still saved by faith alone? What about cheating others in deals, gambling, adultery, but I still have faith in God. Does my actions mean nothing if it's only my faith alone that saves me? I can take all scriptures away that could even remotely destroy my view and be blind to them cause I don't want to think that way or it kills what I've been taught growing up. In reality I have challenged everything I've been taught growing up because I want to show 2 Timothy 2:15 and 1 Thes. 5:21 in my response. I don't know you, but I find your claim against my belief. I'm not using advanced/complicated logic, nor do I want to use greek unless I downright have to, but a heart is a heart and a soul is very precious indeed. Answer this question from James, What does it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith and have not works? Can faith save him? Continue reading chapter 2 for the answer!

Go read post 442 and see here I stand on James....

James--->SHOW ME YOUR FAITH...HOW...BY BIBLICAL WORKS
PAUL-->MAN JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT the deeds of the LAW (works)

Not one person who believes saved by faith alone has EVER said that we are not to submit to God a do biblical works as this is a misnomer and a false allegation by those who teach works for salvation.......

How can a MAN (JAMES) see the inward faith of a believer? By what comes out of that man and by what he does.....If a man says he is a BELIEVER and HAS NO biblical fruit (at least one piece) then his FAITH is AS A CORPSE....and a GOOD CHANCE he never really believed.

However...1st Corinthians 3

SAVED FAITHFUL MAN--->WORKS of GOLD, SILVER and PRECIOUS STONES
SAVED UNFAITHFUL MAN-->WORKS OF WOOD, HAY AND STUBBLE

Both shall be tried by fire...faithful man's works will leave purified gold, silver and stones
Unfaithful believer will have works burnt YET WILL BE SAVED SO AS BY FIRE (skin of their teeth) yet still SAVED

In a house are many VESSELS.....SOME to HONOR...some NOT SO HONORABLE

 

[dcontroversal]

and you cannot show because your faith is void of works...

Titus 1:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Now you just crossed the line into ignorance and accusation as YOU have NO IDEA what I do or DONT DO when it comes to serving GOD...again we see your daddy the devil coming out of you as HE IS THE ACCUSER of the brethren and HE ALSO LIED about things HE WAS or IS IGNORANT of.....so keep on flapping your lips out of ignorance.

 

[Tateej]

The fire in 1 Cor. 3 is the judgement on a persons works in life, this is not obtaining salvation, just the judging part by God. Which brings up a good point in this, why does James say we need works but then Paul says something of the opposite effect? Does that not seem to be a contradiction to you in God's Word? It's to be a source of no contradictions, why would these contradict then? Should anything out of these claims be questioned because there should be harmony in an gospels compared to another unless if I interpret something incorrectly, they should not contradict in any way at all. Why then did Jesus die for our sins if all we need to do is only have faith to be saved? What was the point of having a perfect sacrifice if all we needed to do was have faith ( and from what the biblical works you stated about) and maintain doing good works into others to edify the church? What of writing verse 24 then [TABLE="width: 308"]
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[TD="class: v1Col"]24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.[/TD]
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[dcontroversal]

The fire in 1 Cor. 3 is the judgement on a persons works in life, this is not obtaining salvation, just the judging part by God. Which brings up a good point in this, why does James say we need works but then Paul says something of the opposite effect? Does that not seem to be a contradiction to you in God's Word? It's to be a source of no contradictions, why would these contradict then? Should anything out of these claims be questioned because there should be harmony in an gospels compared to another unless if I interpret something incorrectly, they should not contradict in any way at all. Why then did Jesus die for our sins if all we need to do is only have faith to be saved? What was the point of having a perfect sacrifice if all we needed to do was have faith ( and from what the biblical works you stated about) and maintain doing good works into others to edify the church?

There is no contradiction as one is speaking before God and the other is speaking before men.... and I disagree with you view of our works as it is indicative of our lives and works being judged by God and the result is the same as listed as he is writing to SAVED CHURCH members of the church at CORINTH....

Genuine biblical faith saves and justifies before GOD and at the same genuine biblical faith can be seen by men based upon what we do that is biblical...no contradictions what so ever at all.........

Think about the difference in the disciples...NOT every believer is going to be 100 percent faithful...many VESSELS in the house of GOD...some who are faithful over little WILL RULE over much...not everybody will win the crowns to be won....who and what do the faithful RULE OVER...WHO SERVES who is honorable and who is dishonorable.....The preceding in this paragraph will be determined by the level of faithfulness found in their life....

Belief saves and makes one a child of God... then our faithfulness or lack thereof will determine our positioning in the Kingdom of God...Jesus as the ONLY one to FULLY KEEP THE WORD of GOD gets it all and gets to RULE IT ALL....the 12 around the throne on thrones is based upon HOW faithful they were...the 12 APOSTLES the gates....and so on so forth down the line....the least faithful will SERVE ALL....PAUL said he did not do the things he said he was going to do...did the things he said he wouldn't do and is the NUMBER ONE CHIEF SINNER among men......

 

[Tateej]

The context of Paul in Romans 3 is in regards to the old law compared to the new in regards to circumcision(baptism) to uncircumsision (not baptized). Its having faith and practicing those deeds of the new law (Christ) that are justified. Those that still practiced the old law knowing the new one, their deeds would not be justified to God knowing of the deeds that changed from sacrifices being halted for Christs sacrifice atoning for everything going to the message of circumsicion. That's not specifically addressed to us in obtaining our personal salvation per se.

 

[Tateej]

What of all the other verses that give more than just belief to be saved? Do they have no effect then? As I can't throw it out if it's mentioned in one place and not in another. Then the gospel account might as well be thrown out because the accounts vary in some manners. I don't know how you're getting belief alone saves but there are mentions of other things involved besides belief and those don't matter? I need insight of your interpretation of the verse that give other actions to be done that allow one to be saved

 

[dcontroversal]

The context of Paul in Romans 3 is in regards to the old law compared to the new in regards to circumcision(baptism) to uncircumsision (not baptized). Its having faith and practicing those deeds of the new law (Christ) that are justified. Those that still practiced the old law knowing the new one, their deeds would not be justified to God knowing of the deeds that changed from sacrifices being halted for Christs sacrifice atoning for everything going to the message of circumsicion. That's not specifically addressed to us in obtaining our personal salvation per se.

Did not Abraham have faith before he had circumcision?

Abraham believed God and it was put to his account for righteousness....

Did not David describe righteousness being put to our account without the deeds of the law?

Galatians chapter one...notice the word another used twice in verse 6 and 7

vs 6. Heteros=different kind
vs 7. Allos=Same kind

Chapter 3:1-3 They were teaching saved by faith and then kept by works...Paul calls it a gospel of HETEROS (of a different kind) and that it has no power to save but is double cursed.....verse 8 chapter 1......

See, what most miss is the fact that it is the PERFECT faith OF Jesus that saves us, justifies us and that is why it cannot be worked for, or gained by works as the work has already been done by Christ...Galatians 2:16-21 and pay attention to the word OF after the word FAITH...OF can be translated of or from and both indicate source.....

Faith is a Spiritual GIFT
Salvation is a gift John 3:16
Not of works Titus 3:5, Ephesians 2:8-10 and the words NOT OF YOURSELVES is directed at FAITH...it is the gift of GOD not of works lest any man should boast......

So....you have two options...either the verses that seem to indicate works alleviate the above or it is by faith dia grace and the scriptures that seem to indicate works are taken out of context, mistranslated and or do not point to works for salvation as BOTH cannot be right.....

 

[newbirth]

Now you just crossed the line into ignorance and accusation as YOU have NO IDEA what I do or DONT DO when it comes to serving GOD...again we see your daddy the devil coming out of you as HE IS THE ACCUSER of the brethren and HE ALSO LIED about things HE WAS or IS IGNORANT of.....so keep on flapping your lips out of ignorance.

these are your words...

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Faith saves void of works, baptism, church membership, back flipping down the isle, speaking mumbo jumbo....I have intently studied for the last 25 years and my bible teaches me clearly....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE those that believe and not to be removed from the SIMPLICITY that is found in Christ......

The first thing I always do besides pray is to do a complete word study on every verse that I am considering.....!

 

[newbirth]

Go read post 442 and see here I stand on James....

James--->SHOW ME YOUR FAITH...HOW...BY BIBLICAL WORKS
PAUL-->MAN JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY FAITH WITHOUT the deeds of the LAW (works)

Not one person who believes saved by faith alone has EVER said that we are not to submit to God a do biblical works as this is a misnomer and a false allegation by those who teach works for salvation.......

How can a MAN (JAMES) see the inward faith of a believer? By what comes out of that man and by what he does.....If a man says he is a BELIEVER and HAS NO biblical fruit (at least one piece) then his FAITH is AS A CORPSE....and a GOOD CHANCE he never really believed.

However...1st Corinthians 3

SAVED FAITHFUL MAN--->WORKS of GOLD, SILVER and PRECIOUS STONES
SAVED UNFAITHFUL MAN-->WORKS OF WOOD, HAY AND STUBBLE

Both shall be tried by fire...faithful man's works will leave purified gold, silver and stones
Unfaithful believer will have works burnt YET WILL BE SAVED SO AS BY FIRE (skin of their teeth) yet still SAVED

In a house are many VESSELS.....SOME to HONOR...some NOT SO HONORABLE

but who is talking about Law????we are talking faith...you teach faith without works..... James says faith without works is dead...I believe James....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Faith saves void of works, baptism, church membership, back flipping down the isle, speaking mumbo jumbo....I have intently studied for the last 25 years and my bible teaches me clearly....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE those that believe and not to be removed from the SIMPLICITY that is found in Christ......

The first thing I always do besides pray is to do a complete word study on every verse that I am considering.....!

can faith without works save??[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


that is the big question.....dcontroversal says yes.....

 

[wattie]

There is a big difference between being saved in the first place and then having your life 'saved' or salvaged after salvation.

James is mainly about what happens after someone is saved in the first place. So 'faith without works is dead' is akin to saying.. not doing good works after salvation is making your daily faith useless. 'Save' doesn't always mean deliver eternally.. depends on surrounding verses.

 

[Billyd]

Jesus said that He came to save those who would believe in Him. He also said those who do not believe in Him are condemned already. There are those who believe and those who don't. We have three groups here. We have those who claim that it is work that saves (condemned already), those who claim that it is belief that saves (condemned), and finally, there are those that it is works plus belief that saves (maybe condemned, maybe not). The first two are simple and direct facts and there is no debate there. John 3:17. Now the problem arises by the interpretation of the remaining scriptures and the apparent contradiction brought by the interpretation. When this occurs, we have a problem because the scriptures never contract themselves. If we take a step back and apply a little math, we find that the third belief is an intersection of the set of the first and the set of the second. In it we are condemned and not condemned at the same time. That is an impossibility. The question becomes how does the verses that refer to works and salvation fit together.

The only way that this happens is we belief brings salvation and salvation brings works. If we begin with works, we are never saved, and if we reverse salvation and works, we replace will be with maybe, and that is a violation of John 3:16. These are the direct words of Jesus relating to salvation. Belief is best understood by Matthew 7:21-23. Here He explains that belief is not works in the name of Jesus.

 

[dcontroversal]

but who is talking about Law????we are talking faith...you teach faith without works..... James says faith without works is dead...I believe James....


can faith without works save??[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


that is the big question.....dcontroversal says yes.....

I suggest you go re-read all that I that I have written....and then put your glasses on and re-read it again and then open your blind eyes to the truth about biblical salvation....and quit attributing things to me by cherry picking a few statements out to accuse me of something that I don't teach and or promote....while your at it...keep twisting the word of James to your own demise and see where you end up when you take your last breath!

Galatians 1 and chapter 3..faith plus works for salvation equals a gospel of a different kind that is double cursed, has no power to save and will take you to hell!

 

[dcontroversal]

There is a big difference between being saved in the first place and then having your life 'saved' or salvaged after salvation.

James is mainly about what happens after someone is saved in the first place. So 'faith without works is dead' is akin to saying.. not doing good works after salvation is making your daily faith useless. 'Save' doesn't always mean deliver eternally.. depends on surrounding verses.

No doubt and I agree for sure......faith saves and once saved faith produces the works...at the end of the day it is Jesus that is doing the works dia the Holy Spirit in us and through us....To God be the glory

Faith and works to gain salvation = a gospel of a different kind, double cursed and no power to save...Galatians 1:1-7 and chapter 3:1-3

 

[newbirth]

There is a big difference between being saved in the first place and then having your life 'saved' or salvaged after salvation.

James is mainly about what happens after someone is saved in the first place. So 'faith without works is dead' is akin to saying.. not doing good works after salvation is making your daily faith useless. 'Save' doesn't always mean deliver eternally.. depends on surrounding verses.

we are saved by grace through faith.....and that is throughout our salvation what is the difference? through faith from beginning to end...and faith without works cannot save..

 

[dcontroversal]

we are saved by grace through faith.....and that is throughout our salvation what is the difference? through faith from beginning to end...and faith without works cannot save..

So you trust your works....no matter how you twist and squirm you still trust into your ability to save yourself dia your own works...I suggest a study on Cain who offered his works and how he was rejected and made the book of Jude as a false teacher who gets the mists of darkness for ever....!

 

[Tateej]

What about the other verses that give more than belief to be saved? Why aren't those being addressed?

 

[newbirth]

So you trust your works....no matter how you twist and squirm you still trust into your ability to save yourself dia your own works...I suggest a study on Cain who offered his works and how he was rejected and made the book of Jude as a false teacher who gets the mists of darkness for ever....!

don't just say it prove it with scripture...that faith without works save....