Scriptures Cannot be alone... Scripture is clear

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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
Jackson123 Your source is WRONG!!!
All you have is your wishes and nefarious schemes in your fight against Jesus his One, Holy Catholic Apostolic Body!

Waldenses (WALDENSIANS), an heretical sect which appeared in the second half of the twelfth century and, in a considerably modified form, has survived to the present day.
As long as you insist on opening your mouth and inserting your foot, yes, let's elaborate on the Waldenses, and the whoring with Satan performed by your evil, so-called apostolic Roman "church," this one example of many murderous and heinous evils Catholicism has been guilty of down the ages. You clearly have that vitriol against these innocent people, to this day. So, why don't we talk of the Piedmont Easter, then maybe share some jokes about what your Catholicism really has to do with Christ:

Piedmont Easter

In January 1655 the Duke of Savoy commanded the Waldensians to attend Mass or remove to the upper valleys of their homeland, giving them twenty days in which to sell their lands. Being in the midst of winter, the order, of course, was intended to persuade the Vaudois to choose the former; however, the bulk of the populace instead chose the latter, abandoning their homes and lands in the lower valleys and removing to the upper valleys. It was written that these targets of persecution, including old men, women, little children and the sick "waded through the icy waters, climbed the frozen peaks, and at length reached the homes of their impoverished brethren of the upper Valleys, where they were warmly received."

By mid-April, when it became clear that the Duke's efforts to force the Vaudois to conform to Catholicism had failed, he tried another approach. Under the guise of false reports of Vaudois uprisings, the Duke sent troops into the upper valleys to quell the local populace. He required that the local populace quarter the troops in their homes, which the local populace complied with. But the quartering order was a ruse to allow the troops easy access to the populace. On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre.

AnnaCharboniereTortured.jpg

Print illustrating the 1655 massacre in La Torre, from Samuel Morelands "History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont" published in London in 1658.

The Catholic forces did not simply slaughter the inhabitants. They are reported to have unleashed an unprovoked campaign of looting, rape, torture, and murder. According to one report by a Peter Liegé:

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. (The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".) Swiss and Dutch Calvinists set up an 'underground railroad' to bring many of the survivors north to Switzerland and even as far as the Dutch Republic, where the councillors of the city of Amsterdam chartered three ships to take some 167 Waldensians to their City Colony in the New World (Delaware) on Christmas Day 1656. Those that stayed behind in France and the Piedmont formed a guerilla resistance movement led by a farmer, Joshua Janavel, which lasted into the 1660s.
 
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it is evil, it is Satan's way, if he can defeat the authority of scripture, he can get his word out, and no one can do anything about it.

He has done a good job of that through a church that calls itself Gods church, which does not resemble God at all.
I reply:eternally-gratefull. Scriptures give AUTHORITY to the One Church Jesus established!
The only Church Jesus established "Made the bible"! She alone was responsible for weeding out all the phony manuscripts kicking around at the time then she took all the truly INSPIRED manuscripts and put them into one book she named "The Bible"! The Church came before the Bible!!

eternally-gratefull. You have to trust she got it right!
THINK Use your noodle: You might as well toss your bible out your stinking window if you reject the authority of the Holy Catholic Church! You reject the Catholic Church then you HAVE TO reject her Bible HOW.....
How can you be sure she got it right??!

THINK:
If God helped his Holy Church in the deciding of the scriptures as to what manuscripts were inspired and what were not, DON'T YOU THINK...
Don't you think God the Holy Spirit would also not stick around and help her INTERPRET the same scriptures!?

Until Martin Luther sixteen hundred years after Jesus established his one CHURCH; there was no teaching of "Scriptures ALONE"!
Martin Luther was a Catholic Priest!
The Catholic Church and Scriptures came before this man made TRADITION of "Man does not need Church, Scriptures are all man needs"!
The body of Jesus is his >CHURCH<!
eternally-gratefull.
Clearly Satan has had his hand in this teaching, it separate men from Jesus!

The scriptures warn against men like Martin Luther!
Martin Luther the >FIRST< De-Former decided; "Jesus' Church has fallen into error", he said, "Satan was the head of Jesus' Church!"
For Luther to teach this (above) he had to reject Jesus' Words >The Scriptures<!

Scriptures are very clear: Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of Time! You have to REJECT Jesus' words to believe Jesus' Church was overpowered by Satan!

Scriptures are very clear: Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to Guide his Church-FOREVER! You have to believe God ERRS! You have to believe God the Holy Spirit guided Jesus' Holy Body into error! You have to REJECT Jesus' words just as your father Martin Luther did!

Scriptures are very clear: Jesus commissioned his Church with all the AUTHORITY of GOD To TEACH ALL NATIONS! You have to REJECT Jesus' words to say "Jesus' church cannot teach!"

The person believing in "Scriptures ALONE" has rejected Jesus and scriptures, having placed the salvation of their soul in the teachings of men! I point at you!

eternally-gratefull. The teaching of "Scriptures ALONE" cannot be found in the scriptures! You are wrong or the scriptures are wrong you both cannot be right!
 
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As long as you insist on opening your mouth and inserting your foot, yes, let's elaborate on the Waldenses, and the whoring with Satan performed by your evil, so-called apostolic Roman "church," this one example of many murderous and heinous evils Catholicism has been guilty of down the ages. You clearly have that vitriol against these innocent people, to this day. So, why don't we talk of the Piedmont Easter, then maybe share some jokes about what your Catholicism really has to do with Christ:

Piedmont Easter

In January 1655 the Duke of Savoy commanded the Waldensians to attend Mass or remove to the upper valleys of their homeland, giving them twenty days in which to sell their lands. Being in the midst of winter, the order, of course, was intended to persuade the Vaudois to choose the former; however, the bulk of the populace instead chose the latter, abandoning their homes and lands in the lower valleys and removing to the upper valleys. It was written that these targets of persecution, including old men, women, little children and the sick "waded through the icy waters, climbed the frozen peaks, and at length reached the homes of their impoverished brethren of the upper Valleys, where they were warmly received."

By mid-April, when it became clear that the Duke's efforts to force the Vaudois to conform to Catholicism had failed, he tried another approach. Under the guise of false reports of Vaudois uprisings, the Duke sent troops into the upper valleys to quell the local populace. He required that the local populace quarter the troops in their homes, which the local populace complied with. But the quartering order was a ruse to allow the troops easy access to the populace. On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre.

View attachment 91213

Print illustrating the 1655 massacre in La Torre, from Samuel Morelands "History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont" published in London in 1658.

The Catholic forces did not simply slaughter the inhabitants. They are reported to have unleashed an unprovoked campaign of looting, rape, torture, and murder. According to one report by a Peter Liegé:

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. (The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".) Swiss and Dutch Calvinists set up an 'underground railroad' to bring many of the survivors north to Switzerland and even as far as the Dutch Republic, where the councillors of the city of Amsterdam chartered three ships to take some 167 Waldensians to their City Colony in the New World (Delaware) on Christmas Day 1656. Those that stayed behind in France and the Piedmont formed a guerilla resistance movement led by a farmer, Joshua Janavel, which lasted into the 1660s.
I reply:
AND WHAT?? I see this (above) PROVES you lie!! The Waldensians did not come before the Catholic Church!
I point out: King Henry a PROTESTANT Killed thousands of Catholics! FACT: The Waldensians are all SINNERS also!

JesusIsAll . What you prove is; "Men are sinners!!!" SO WHAT!!!?
Jesus did not come to save you, clearly you are without sin! Clearly you point fingers because you CANNOT point to scriptures!

Jesus established his Holy Catholic Church Two Thousand years ago!! DOCUMENTED HISTORY says so!!!!
The Church Jesus established is still here today, it continually grows, over 1.2 Billion people around the whole world in every country! Satan did not, he CANNOT overpower Jesus' holy body.. No matter how you want it so!

FACT: Jesus did NOT form your Waldensians church, no matter how much you want it to be so!

Jesus established only ONE CHURCH because God is ONE!
Jesus established; A Universal, Holy church because God is Universal and Holy!
Jesus made Peter the Key Holder, he made Peter his Shepherd, Shepherd >The man in Charge< he Gave his One Holy Catholic Church the AUTHORITY to TEACH all nations and the AUTHORITY to forgive or retain sins!

JesusIsAll . Jesus is ALWAYS with his Holy Catholic body to the end of Time!
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to his ONE Holy Catholic Church to guide it FOREVER!
To say different you MUST reject the scriptures!!!!
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
JesusIsAll . What you prove is; "Men are sinners!!!" SO WHAT!!!?
Jesus did not come to save you, clearly you are without sin! Clearly you point fingers because you CANNOT point to scriptures!
Oh! So you want scripture? Okay,

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

JesusIsAll . What you prove is; "Men are sinners!!!" SO WHAT!!!?
Herein is the problem, this is just a "SO WHAT!!!?" to you (your shouting, emotional vitriol preserved),

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

Sure. Nothing to see here. And this is so Catholic, just a Papal "whoops" was it? I rest my case.

Here's some more scripture,

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
 
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And no modern Protestant is descended spiritually from the Waldensians. The Waldensians were the pre-cursors of the Cathars, heretics that denied the Holy Trinity and denied the divinity of Christ.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
And no modern Protestant is descended spiritually from the Waldensians. The Waldensians were the pre-cursors of the Cathars, heretics that denied the Holy Trinity and denied the divinity of Christ.
So, this is your apologetic for this Catholic Satanic torture-murder rampage that would gag a maggot? By the way, as usual, you're deceptively redacting history, the Waldensians believing in Bible truth. I guess you have to resort to lies, to try and smooth over such painfully obvious, most heinous acts of Satan Catholicism is guilty of:

Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. Some of these were:


  1. The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ
  2. The Godhead
  3. The fall of man
  4. The incarnation of the Son
  5. They denied purgatory and said it was the 'invention of the Antichrist'.
  6. Valued voluntary poverty

They held that ... temporal offices and dignities were not meant for preachers of the Gospel; that relics were simply rotten bones which had belonged to one knew not whom; that to go on pilgrimage served no end, save to empty one's purse; that flesh might be eaten any day if one's appetite served him; that holy water was not a whit more efficacious than rain water; and that prayer in a barn was just as effectual as if offered in a church. They were accused, moreover, of having scoffed at the doctrine of transubstantiation, and of having spoken blasphemously of the Roman Catholic Church as the harlot of the apocalypse.
 
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Oh! So you want scripture? Okay,

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Herein is the problem, this is just a "SO WHAT!!!?" to you (your shouting, emotional vitriol preserved),

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

Sure. Nothing to see here. And this is so Catholic, just a Papal "whoops" was it? I rest my case.

Here's some more scripture,

Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
JesusIsAll .. What do you prove?! NOTHING!!! You JUDGE!!!!
"Judge NOT least you be JUDGED!"

FACT: There are fewer Waldensians today then ever; Jesus' Church is UNIVERSAL, GROWING in number each year TRULY the Holy Spirit is guiding the Catholic Church; Over One BILLION Catholics!!!!
To say: (as you do) "Jesus' Church is WRONG is to say God is WRONG!!!"

Scriptures tell you: Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of the world! There were NO Waldensians when Jesus promised he would "ALWAYS be with his TEACHING CHURCH to the end of time!" You fight against Jesus you REJECT His holy words the Scriptures!!!!
You CONDEMN your self!!!

JesusIsAll The Waldensians were heretics; Satan is the Father of heretics! You cannot deny the TRUTH!

Fact: Jesus did not start the Waldensians they were started by a MAN, well after Jesus established his Holy Catholic Church!

Jesus established ONE CHURCH! The ONLY Church established by Jesus can only be the Catholic Church>> NONE OTHER<<!
Scriptures and Documented HISTORY proves me right!

You complain about the deaths caused by >> soldiers <<!!!!
 
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oh people will give an account for shunning scripture as the sole authority of Gods word.
eternally-gratefull
To say what you say you MUST reject the scriptures!!
1) You reject Jesus established a Church with his AUTHORITY to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
2) You reject the words of Jesus to say "Jesus left his body for the thousands of man made bodies, You reject Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of time!!

The words of God>>> “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given tome. 19 There fore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

God cannot lead into error!! Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to guide his church FOREVER!
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

eternally-gratefull Rejecting the words of Jesus condemns you!!!
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
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If it hasn't been already said before, RRC has tried to usurp the Church since it began (Constantine), and has been ever at war with the Church of Jesus Christ ever since. God has always kept a remnant, even when the official religion was a blasphemous to His Name! (the massacre of Constantinople during the Crusades).

The Church that Christ instituted was never popular, and was never dominant,
but it was always present and growing.

I feel compassion for those of you who are lost in mysticism and idolatry,
and I will ever ever be in prayer that the Lord will pull you from the chains of religion, and into the open arms of grace:
I was born into your religion, but only by God's grace was I freed from it, and brought into His marvelous Light.

His Kingdom Cometh! Submit to the King, and put aside all else.
Turn from the selfishness of trying to save yourself through ceremony, and turn to your neighbors, and show them the love that you have been given through the shed Blood of Christ and the anointing by His Spirit!
 

SolidGround

Senior Member
Jan 15, 2014
904
17
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eternally-gratefull
To say what you say you MUST reject the scriptures!!
1) You reject Jesus established a Church with his AUTHORITY to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
2) You reject the words of Jesus to say "Jesus left his body for the thousands of man made bodies, You reject Jesus is ALWAYS with his Church to the end of time!!

The words of God>>> “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given tome. 19 There fore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

God cannot lead into error!! Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to guide his church FOREVER!
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

eternally-gratefull Rejecting the words of Jesus condemns you!!!
As in all of your posts, your primary false assumption is that the RCC was ever the same as the Church of Christ.

It was always nothing but a deviation from the Church. Pretending to be the head of the Body, but never even apart of it.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
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As long as you insist on opening your mouth and inserting your foot, yes, let's elaborate on the Waldenses, and the whoring with Satan performed by your evil, so-called apostolic Roman "church," this one example of many murderous and heinous evils Catholicism has been guilty of down the ages. You clearly have that vitriol against these innocent people, to this day. So, why don't we talk of the Piedmont Easter, then maybe share some jokes about what your Catholicism really has to do with Christ:

Piedmont Easter

In January 1655 the Duke of Savoy commanded the Waldensians to attend Mass or remove to the upper valleys of their homeland, giving them twenty days in which to sell their lands. Being in the midst of winter, the order, of course, was intended to persuade the Vaudois to choose the former; however, the bulk of the populace instead chose the latter, abandoning their homes and lands in the lower valleys and removing to the upper valleys. It was written that these targets of persecution, including old men, women, little children and the sick "waded through the icy waters, climbed the frozen peaks, and at length reached the homes of their impoverished brethren of the upper Valleys, where they were warmly received."

By mid-April, when it became clear that the Duke's efforts to force the Vaudois to conform to Catholicism had failed, he tried another approach. Under the guise of false reports of Vaudois uprisings, the Duke sent troops into the upper valleys to quell the local populace. He required that the local populace quarter the troops in their homes, which the local populace complied with. But the quartering order was a ruse to allow the troops easy access to the populace. On 24 April 1655, at 4 a.m., the signal was given for a general massacre.

View attachment 91213

Print illustrating the 1655 massacre in La Torre, from Samuel Morelands "History of the Evangelical Churches of the Valleys of Piemont" published in London in 1658.

The Catholic forces did not simply slaughter the inhabitants. They are reported to have unleashed an unprovoked campaign of looting, rape, torture, and murder. According to one report by a Peter Liegé:

Little children were torn from the arms of their mothers, clasped by their tiny feet, and their heads dashed against the rocks; or were held between two soldiers and their quivering limbs torn up by main force. Their mangled bodies were then thrown on the highways or fields, to be devoured by beasts. The sick and the aged were burned alive in their dwellings. Some had their hands and arms and legs lopped off, and fire applied to the severed parts to staunch the bleeding and prolong their suffering. Some were flayed alive, some were roasted alive, some disemboweled; or tied to trees in their own orchards, and their hearts cut out. Some were horribly mutilated, and of others the brains were boiled and eaten by these cannibals. Some were fastened down into the furrows of their own fields, and ploughed into the soil as men plough manure into it. Others were buried alive. Fathers were marched to death with the heads of their sons suspended round their necks. Parents were compelled to look on while their children were first outraged [raped], then massacred, before being themselves permitted to die.

This massacre became known as the Piedmont Easter. An estimate of some 1,700 Waldensians were slaughtered; the massacre was so brutal it aroused indignation throughout Europe. Protestant rulers in northern Europe offered sanctuary to the remaining Waldensians. Oliver Cromwell, then ruler in England, began petitioning on behalf of the Waldensians; writing letters, raising contributions, calling a general fast in England and threatening to send military forces to the rescue. (The massacre prompted John Milton's famous poem on the Waldenses, "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont".) Swiss and Dutch Calvinists set up an 'underground railroad' to bring many of the survivors north to Switzerland and even as far as the Dutch Republic, where the councillors of the city of Amsterdam chartered three ships to take some 167 Waldensians to their City Colony in the New World (Delaware) on Christmas Day 1656. Those that stayed behind in France and the Piedmont formed a guerilla resistance movement led by a farmer, Joshua Janavel, which lasted into the 1660s.
Brother Dogknox.

1. There are 2 Waldensian. The old Waldensian is the first century Waldensian. Than there is another group call them self Waldensian and claim as the same as first century Waldensian.

2 Read Brother I love Jesus posting, and please give me honest assessment Which is fit to be call as heretical sect. Lovely Waldensian,
were willing to sacrifice they wealth and live to Jesus or the butcher that slaughter woman and children.

Which is the fruit of the Holy spirit? Butcher or lovely sacrifice.
 
Sep 21, 2014
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So, this is your apologetic for this Catholic Satanic torture-murder rampage that would gag a maggot? By the way, as usual, you're deceptively redacting history, the Waldensians believing in Bible truth. I guess you have to resort to lies, to try and smooth over such painfully obvious, most heinous acts of Satan Catholicism is guilty of:

Waldensians held and preached a number of truths as they read from the Bible. Some of these were:


  1. The atoning death and justifying righteousness of Christ
  2. The Godhead
  3. The fall of man
  4. The incarnation of the Son
  5. They denied purgatory and said it was the 'invention of the Antichrist'.
  6. Valued voluntary poverty

They held that ... temporal offices and dignities were not meant for preachers of the Gospel; that relics were simply rotten bones which had belonged to one knew not whom; that to go on pilgrimage served no end, save to empty one's purse; that flesh might be eaten any day if one's appetite served him; that holy water was not a whit more efficacious than rain water; and that prayer in a barn was just as effectual as if offered in a church. They were accused, moreover, of having scoffed at the doctrine of transubstantiation, and of having spoken blasphemously of the Roman Catholic Church as the harlot of the apocalypse.
The Waldenses practiced an extreme form of celibacy, you didn't mention that. And their day of worship was Saturday, not Sunday, hardly a Baptist practice. I found your wikipedia source btw. It states: "...In 1487 Pope Innocent VIII issued a bull for the extermination of the Vaudois. Alberto de' Capitanei,.."
NO SUCH DOCUMENT EXISTS.
There is no historical record of the Duke of Savoy acting under any papal directive to persecute the Walsenses, he acted out of political reasons, probably because the heretics were causing social disorder, or guilty of treason. The charge that the Pope ordered the massacre to the Duke (or anybody else) is simply false. The Church has never ordered the death of anyone because she does not have that authority. If you disagree, show me the documents. (not the fake ones found on "Bible-Christian" hate sites)

The claim of its Constantinian origin was for a long time credulously accepted as valid by Protestant historians. In the nineteenth century, however, it became evident to critics that the Waldensian documents had been tampered with. As a result the pretentious claims of the Waldenses to high antiquity were relegated to the realm of fable . . .

Some points in this teaching so strikingly resemble the Cathari that the borrowing of the Waldenses from them may be looked upon as a certainty. Both sects also had a similar organization, being divided into two classes, the Perfect (perfecti) and the Friends or Believers (amici or credentes).

Married persons who desired to join them were permitted to dissolve their union without the consent of their consort.


  • The friends remained in union with the Catholic Church and continued to receive its sacraments with the exception of penance, for which they sought out, whenever possible, one of their own ministers.
[editorial / polemical comment: I thought they were opposed to the Catholic Church? Baptists "in union with" Catholics? Hmmmmmm . . . ]


  • The name Waldenses was at first exclusively reserved to the perfect; but in the course of the thirteenth century the friends were also included in the designation.The perfect were divided into the three classes of bishops, priests, and deacons. The bishop, called "major" or "majoralis", preached and administered the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and order.
[editorial / polemical comment: Priests? Bishops? Sacraments? Penance? Sacrament of the Eucharist? Is this Baptist?]


  • The celebration of the Eucharist, frequent perhaps in the early period, soon took place only on Holy Thursday. The priest preached and enjoyed limited faculties for the hearing of confessions . . . .
[editorial / polemical comment: what???!!!! "Confessions?!!!" Don't they go straight to God, or to an offending party?]


  • Holding that the validity of the sacraments depends on the worthiness of the minister
[editorial / polemical comment: since when do Baptists have sacraments? Why would the validity of the minister be a question at all, since sacraments are supposedly unbiblical and instruments of "works-salvation" to begin with?]


  • and viewing the Catholic Church as the community of Satan, they rejected its entire organization in so far as it was not based on the Scriptures.
[editorial / polemical comment: ah! Now this sounds more like an anti-Catholic type of Baptist - too bad those other thorny "Catholic" details have to be worked out . . . ]
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Clearly the
Bereans did NOT believe in the scriptures ALONE!!!
They listened to Paul >>
AND<< they checked their "Old Testament scriptures"!
Paul was TEACHING "Christ Resurrected"! Christ Resurrected is NOT found in the "Old Testament"!
QUOTE]

Really......Hmm...what about.....

Psalm 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine HOLY ONE to see corruption

Mark 13:34-35 And as concerning he that raised him up from the DEAD, now no more to return unto corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another Psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption
 
Oct 9, 2014
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dcontroversal . Good to meet you..
I reply: Documented HISTORY tells you Jesus established a TEACHING CHURCH with AUTHORITY to teach!
The Catholic Church TAUGHT salvation and Jesus to the world for the first seventeen hundred years... There were very few bibles! Until the printing press all bibles were made by hand.. They very very costly works of art.. Only the very rich could own a bible.. BESIDES..
Besides MOST people could not ever read!!

Thinking scriptures save it not logical and not biblical!

Jesus established his CHURCH, giving his CHURCH all the authority of God to "Teach All Nations"!

Jesus commissioned his CHURCH!
18
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Scriptures tell you: "Jesus is ALWAYS WITH his church to the very end of the world!!"
QUESTION: Is your church teaching; Jesus left his Church? Do they teach; Jesus' church needs to be restored?


John14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever

dcontroversal . Question: Does your Church teach; "The Church Jesus established fell into error?!"
You do realize to TEACH "Jesus left his church" to TEACH "Jesus established church fell into error it to say "God' the Holy Spirit lead his own body into error"!!

Please reply!!
 
Oct 9, 2014
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Brother Dogknox.

1. There are 2 Waldensian. The old Waldensian is the first century Waldensian. Than there is another group call them self Waldensian and claim as the same as first century Waldensian.

2 Read Brother I love Jesus posting, and please give me honest assessment Which is fit to be call as heretical sect. Lovely Waldensian,
were willing to sacrifice they wealth and live to Jesus or the butcher that slaughter woman and children.

Which is the fruit of the Holy spirit? Butcher or lovely sacrifice.
Jackson123 I hope all is well..

I reply: SCRIPTURES tell you Jesus established his CHURCH on the Apostles, Peter being the Chief Apostle, he was handed the Keys of heaven! Peter was made SHEPHERD of God' flock, by Jesus himself>> In person!

The AUTHORITY of Jesus has passed on for the past Two Thousand years directly by the "laying on of hands" >>In Person!
FACT: Historical documented FACT..Over 265 popes in an unbroken chain going back two thousand years to Peter and thus Jesus!

FACT: The Apostles were given the authority of GOD to remove or retain sins!
They were COMMISSIONED by Jesus himself, with all of God' AUTHORITY to Make Disciples BAPTIZING >> Baptizing All the WORLD<<!
They were also COMMISSIONED by Jesus himself to TEACH all the world with God' authority to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
They were PROMISED by Jesus, that he would never abandon them! Promised by Jesus himself: Satan would NEVER take Jesus' Church from Jesus!
Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to them to guide them >> FOREVER <<! The Holy Spirit GUIDES the ONLY CHURCH Jesus established FOREVER: The Holy Catholic Church!

FACT: All the early Church fathers were Catholics.. Most were CATHOLIC BISHOPS!! NOT..
Not even one Waldensian in the group!!!

These Apostolic Church Fathers heard confessions, they forgave sins, they baptized with water for salvation, they baptized infants, they Ate the Flesh of Jesus in the form of bread, they accepted the AUTHORITY of the Bishop of Rome! They also made the Bible, The Pope closed the canon, you HAVE to accept the Bible is a Catholic Book made by CATHOLICS!! They also held Church councils with the AUTHORITY to decide TRUTHS!

Jackson123 The early Church was the Catholic Church>> NONE OTHER!!!

You toss up slaughter woman and children, as PROOF text to the existence of your church!??? What can I say.. except "They were slaughtered!!" So what now?? WHAT???
Back to the FACTS>> your church was made by a MAN! Jesus established ONLY ONE CHURCH and it was NOT yours!!!!!!

FACT: The Inquisition was started to protect the truth from error! It was ALSO ABUSED by men, killing their rivals in the name of the Church! MEN SIN it is a FACT!!!

Jackson123 Does not mean Jesus SINNED! Does NOT mean the TRUTHS found in the ONLY Church Jesus established are now Not true!!! THINK! Truth does not change it cannot change, thus the True Church cannot make NONE TRUTHS! God the Holy Spirit keeps the Church from error FOREVER!!

You admit your church split!!! It is obvious because of the errors found in your church! There are today THOUSANDS of man made churches; ALL like yours claim to have the ONLY TRUTH but not even two can be found to believe the same things!
Jackson123 Your church does not eat the flesh of Jesus WHY? The thousands of Protesting man made churches (yours is just one of the many) reject the ONLY CHURCH Jesus established. They have to reject Jesus' church to JUSTIFY the existence of their man made church, all the man made churches have to teach: "Jesus' Church fell into error"! Yours is just one of the pack, lumped in with the rest!!!!

Why did your church reject the words of Jesus?? Can only be because, they have to, otherwise they would be Catholics! They; These thousands and thousands of man made churches (last count over 35,000) are NOT guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit cannot lead into error!!
 
P

phil112

Guest
Jackson123 I hope all is well..

I reply: SCRIPTURES tell you (a)Jesus established his CHURCH on the Apostles, (b)Peter being the Chief Apostle, he was handed the Keys of heaven!(c)Peter was made SHEPHERD of God' flock, by Jesus himself>> In person!..........................
List 3 scriptures for a,b, and c.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
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Jackson123 I hope all is well..

I reply: SCRIPTURES tell you Jesus established his CHURCH on the Apostles, Peter being the Chief Apostle, he was handed the Keys of heaven! Peter was made SHEPHERD of God' flock, by Jesus himself>> In person!

The AUTHORITY of Jesus has passed on for the past Two Thousand years directly by the "laying on of hands" >>In Person!
FACT: Historical documented FACT..Over 265 popes in an unbroken chain going back two thousand years to Peter and thus Jesus!

FACT: The Apostles were given the authority of GOD to remove or retain sins!
They were COMMISSIONED by Jesus himself, with all of God' AUTHORITY to Make Disciples BAPTIZING >> Baptizing All the WORLD<<!
They were also COMMISSIONED by Jesus himself to TEACH all the world with God' authority to TEACH ALL NATIONS!
They were PROMISED by Jesus, that he would never abandon them! Promised by Jesus himself: Satan would NEVER take Jesus' Church from Jesus!
Jesus also sent the Holy Spirit to them to guide them >> FOREVER <<! The Holy Spirit GUIDES the ONLY CHURCH Jesus established FOREVER: The Holy Catholic Church!

FACT: All the early Church fathers were Catholics.. Most were CATHOLIC BISHOPS!! NOT..
Not even one Waldensian in the group!!!

These Apostolic Church Fathers heard confessions, they forgave sins, they baptized with water for salvation, they baptized infants, they Ate the Flesh of Jesus in the form of bread, they accepted the AUTHORITY of the Bishop of Rome! They also made the Bible, The Pope closed the canon, you HAVE to accept the Bible is a Catholic Book made by CATHOLICS!! They also held Church councils with the AUTHORITY to decide TRUTHS!

Jackson123 The early Church was the Catholic Church>> NONE OTHER!!!

You toss up slaughter woman and children, as PROOF text to the existence of your church!??? What can I say.. except "They were slaughtered!!" So what now?? WHAT???
Back to the FACTS>> your church was made by a MAN! Jesus established ONLY ONE CHURCH and it was NOT yours!!!!!!

FACT: The Inquisition was started to protect the truth from error! It was ALSO ABUSED by men, killing their rivals in the name of the Church! MEN SIN it is a FACT!!!

Jackson123 Does not mean Jesus SINNED! Does NOT mean the TRUTHS found in the ONLY Church Jesus established are now Not true!!! THINK! Truth does not change it cannot change, thus the True Church cannot make NONE TRUTHS! God the Holy Spirit keeps the Church from error FOREVER!!

You admit your church split!!! It is obvious because of the errors found in your church! There are today THOUSANDS of man made churches; ALL like yours claim to have the ONLY TRUTH but not even two can be found to believe the same things!
Jackson123 Your church does not eat the flesh of Jesus WHY? The thousands of Protesting man made churches (yours is just one of the many) reject the ONLY CHURCH Jesus established. They have to reject Jesus' church to JUSTIFY the existence of their man made church, all the man made churches have to teach: "Jesus' Church fell into error"! Yours is just one of the pack, lumped in with the rest!!!!

Why did your church reject the words of Jesus?? Can only be because, they have to, otherwise they would be Catholics! They; These thousands and thousands of man made churches (last count over 35,000) are NOT guided by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit cannot lead into error!!
Brother Dogknox, I hope all is well.

1. Jesus not establish church on apostle Peter. You have to read that verse again and again. Jesus said He establish church on Petra not Petros. Petra is the foundation, not Petros.

That is why catholic fit to be call heretical sect. Because always cheat you brother. She twist the scripture again and again.

2. You said to protect the truth catholic slaughter woman and children.

Slaughter woman and children = violate the truth.

Is that mean to protect the truth must violate the truth?

This is another prove that catholic is heretical sect.

Did you read Avro manhattan book? 3 best seller catholic author.

Jesuit orchestra WWI, WWII, and vietnam war

Brother Dogknox, this is satanic relegion, blood thirsty religion.

Have you know the old religion doing sacrifice human? Only one human was kill in every ritual. And it is satanic religion.

Now, there is another sophisticated human sacrifice, not in the altar but in war, not only one human was sacrifice, but millions.

Not openly but secretly. I understand why, Because the devil is always killing, destroy and rob.

By the fruit you know the tree.

I hope they not able to cheat you anymore brother.
 
Sep 21, 2014
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Originally Posted by Dogknox

Jackson123 I hope all is well..


I reply: SCRIPTURES tell you (a)Jesus established his CHURCH on the Apostles, (b)Peter being the Chief Apostle, he was handed the Keys of heaven!(c)Peter was made SHEPHERD of God' flock, by Jesus himself>> In person!..........................
List 3 scriptures for a,b, and c.
A) Eph. 2:20
B) Matt. 16:18
C) John 21:15-17
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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Nick01You ask... So would you agree then that the teaching of the church is to be measured against the Scriptures, not the other way around?

I reply: NO that would be HERESY! Jesus gave the world a CHURCH with all of his AUTHORITY to TEACH the WORLD!!
Nick01Believing what you believe you are forced to REJECT Jesus' words!


Well then, we obviously disagree. The whole reason the gospels in particular were written (e.g Mark containing much of Peter's testimony, for instance), was because the apostles and the rest of the the first generation of disciples were dying out. Thus, there witness was committed to writing so that said witnesses and authority would outlive themselves. Read the first view verses of Luke, for instance - he clearly sees himself as continuing the work of passing on the work of the apostolic deposit, but does not do so in some abstracted sense of authority or apostolic succession - instead, he sees himself continuing that work insofar as he has constructed a written account of those first accounts.

It's simply a nonsense argument to talk about the authority of the church to teach as if it were somehow separate from the written records - the clearest authority and the clearest certainty of the events of the gospel subsist in those words written down by and from the the apostles and the first generation. Everything else is, by definition, a secondary witness.

Catholics believe the words of Jesus, believing the words of Jesus: IS BELIEVING IN JESUS! We are Christians because we believe the words of Jesus!


Yep.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 and teaching
them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.


Teach on the basis of what? Words that Jesus said, or words that Jesus did not say? I think we agree on the answer.

Do you see it??? “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore GO!!!" Jesus has the AUTHORITY to send his CHURCH OUT to all nations!!!


I agree.

Do you see it???
"Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing!!"
Nick01Baptizing makes DISCIPLES of ALL NATIONS with the AUTHORITY of God speaking FOR GOD with all of God' AUTHORITY make Disciples!!


I agree

Disciples are Jesus' brothers and sisters, Baptism makes God' family!

The AUTHORITY does not stop at the making of DISCIPLES it continues to
TEACHING ALL NATIONS!
All of God' authority is given to Jesus Church to TEACH!!!!!!!!! ALL Nations!!!
Nick01
Church TEACHES she uses BOOKS, Preaching, Icons, Sacraments etc!!!


I agree. Maybe not so much with icons, but otherwise, yes.

Church is the AUTHORITY not a BOOK!
The Scriptures are not just a book. They is a living set of documents that are God-breathed, and are the authoritative deposit of the apostles. What other direct witness of the apostles exists today?
 
Sep 21, 2014
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Well then, we obviously disagree. The whole reason the gospels in particular were written (e.g Mark containing much of Peter's testimony, for instance), was because the apostles and the rest of the the first generation of disciples were dying out. Thus, there witness was committed to writing so that said witnesses and authority would outlive themselves. Read the first view verses of Luke, for instance - he clearly sees himself as continuing the work of passing on the work of the apostolic deposit, but does not do so in some abstracted sense of authority or apostolic succession - instead, he sees himself continuing that work insofar as he has constructed a written account of those first accounts.

It's simply a nonsense argument to talk about the authority of the church to teach as if it were somehow separate from the written records - the clearest authority and the clearest certainty of the events of the gospel subsist in those words written down by and from the the apostles and the first generation. Everything else is, by definition, a secondary witness.
With this logic, you are saying the Bible produced the Church. That doesn't make any sense. I think we can agree that the Gospels were written between 30-60 years after the crucifixion, but that does not mean there was no Church, no Christians, and no teaching authority. Only 3 of the original Apostles wrote the Gospels, what the other 9 preached had to be preserved from error. And they didn't read from the New Testament. What all the Apostles preached is just as sacred as what they wrote. It's called Oral Tradition, and God did not withdraw it's sacredness 30-60 years after the crucifixion. It was passed on by those qualified to posses it.

"... it was necessary for human church councils to decide on the specific books that were to be included in the biblical canon. This doesn't imply in the least that the councils (let alone the Church) are above Scripture. Both the Bible and theological truth remain what they are at all times. But God is able to (and indeed does) protect human beings from error insofar as they make binding claims about the biblical canon. Catholics believe that God (the Holy Spirit: John 14-16) willed to protect the Church from error, and that He is certainly capable of doing so, because He can do anything.
http://socrates58.blogspot.ca/2006/09/does-catholic-church-think-it-is.html
The Church makes no claim to be "above" scripture.

Matthew 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
Jesus gave no commandment to write anything here.


Your version:
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them.17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted.18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 but instead make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 write down to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I will be with you in 1517.

Mark 13:31 - heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. (it doesn't mean they don't sin)http://scripturecatholic.com/oral_tradition.html

[/SIZE]Col 1:25 - Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder’s death.


1 Tim. 3:1 - Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.
http://scripturecatholic.com/apostolic_succession.html

Teach on the basis of what? Words that Jesus said, or words that Jesus did not say? I think we agree on the answer.
20 teaching themto observe all that I have commanded you.

John 20:30; 21:25, not ALL Jesus taught is in Scripture.
 
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