Some advice would be much appreciated here ...

Roh_Chris · Nov 6, 2014

First off, I must say that it has been a wonderful time here. I thank God for bringing me to ChristianChat because I have learnt so much. It has been a blessing to my spiritual life and I thank each of you for the support you have given me (you know who you are).

The last couple of years I have been going through a spiritual struggle. I have been battling with some deep and significant questions - the sort of ones which have come up because of the environment I am in (read, church and family). Lately, these questions have become heavier and heavier and I feel that I am close to a breaking point. This is why I felt that I should ask these questions here in CC Singles for receiving your advice.

Please be informed that this is a long post. There is no compulsion to read this post and give me your advice. Anyway, here goes -

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A brief on my background: I have been born and brought up in a Pentecostal family. My parents and my grandparents are staunch followers of the church we go to. They were also significant people holding important responsibilities in the local assemblies and they have a good name throughout the church. Ever since my miraculous birth, my parents have brought me up in the teachings of the church. I was a bright kid during my early childhood.

I did not have a 'normal' childhood. Having a strict family meant that I just did not get to experience the many joys of childhood. Also, my parents were having a lot of problems between themselves and that affected me a lot. Anyway, so all this meant that -
- I hardly had any friends
- All my friends were from church and only one friend from school
- I was considered a 'weirdo' who could not socialise with anybody
- I could never have a stable relationship with anybody, not even with my friends
- I never had a normal life. I never knew what it is to go on a family vacation, what it is to have a loving family, etc.

I have my share of unpleasant memories, some of which I still carry to this day - that I usually thought my parents hated me, that I usually cried myself to sleep, the imaginary friends I made to whom I would talk to almost every day (I still do, sometimes), the voices in my head, my attention-deficit and attention-seeking behaviour (which I think is a consequence of my upbringing), etc. etc.

This was me until I was 22 years old. This was when I joined a university for my post-grad. In the first year, I was still the same 'weirdo' who had very few friends. But in the second year, things changed. I made a few friends who wanted to change me for the good. They taught me how to socialise, how to meet new people and how to behave in a social setting. In short, I changed from being the guy everybody avoided to being the guy everybody liked. All I did was put on a good mask which held itself until I came back to my room.

A brief on my church: My church is a Pentecostal church. They are one of the largest Pentecostal churches in the world with assemblies in many countries around the world. I will not name them for privacy reasons. Some of the practices vary from assembly to assembly, but the teachings are uniform throughout.

My struggle: This is the most important part, where I need your advice. I will list a few questions that I have but I also include some explanation to give you a better idea of my situation.

1. How influential should a church be, in a Christian's life?

The Church I go to, has strict rules and regulations for its members. And all the rules and regulations are based on the Scriptures. The punishment for breaching these rules and regulations is usually a suspension from partaking of the Lord's table for a period of 6 months. Here are some of them -
- Women are forbidden from wearing any ornaments or going to a beauty parlour even to get their facial hair removed (I Peter 3:3)
- Women cannot wear jeans or any women's clothing that looks like a pair of pants (leggings/jeggings/etc.) (Deuteronomy 22:5)
- TVs are forbidden at home (Proverbs 21:4, where the 'light of the wicked' is the TV)
- Church members are expected not to go to a doctor or resort to medicines when they have an ailment. Even if it is cancer or a fracture, they ought to wait on God for their healing (Exodus 15:26, Matthew 8:17, I Peter 2:24 and many more)
- Every activity has to be done only with the permission of the church (Hebrews 13:17). Doing something without their permission is an act of disobedience and any misfortune may befall us. For example, I cannot go on a vacation without the permission of the church. I cannot plan an event without the permission of the church. I cannot even do a roadtrip to a place 80 miles away without the permission of the church.
- Dating and courtship is forbidden. Parents and the church 'arrange' the groom and the bride. Marriage by attraction is a recipe for failure (E.g. Samson & Delilah). Even Jacob had to toil for 14 years because he loved Rachel. On the other hand, Abraham got a wife for Isaac and it was a blessed marriage.
- Movies, secular music and rock music (even if it is gospel), are of the devil. Even CCM music is a deception of the devil.
- In some assemblies, even using body care items like perfumes, deodorants, skin cream, etc. is forbidden because they belong to the fashions of this world.
- We cannot have fellowship with non-members of the Church even if they are spiritual followers of Christ (e.g. marry non-members, attend another church, etc.). We are called to be 'separate' unto God and to lead a separated life (Numbers 23:9)

2. Is it right that a church preaches only fear and judgement as a consequence of disobeying their teachings?

Like in the points I mentioned above, any act of transgression could be the deception of the devil and it could make me worthy of God's wrath and punishment. This has messed up my head a lot. Sometimes I want to question their rules and regulations but I live in the fear that this question could be of the devil. And the examples they often use is Miriam and Korah.

3. Which is the right way to worship God?

The way they worship in the assemblies in India is just crazy. Even people from other assemblies outside India have criticized it. But the leaders of the churches here defend it as the leading of the Spirit. There is a fast beating of the drums and it almost looks like a frenzy. On the other hand, I like a worship where I am allowed to be moved by the words I am singing and to be moved by the love of God. I don't like to be pushed or hurried into worshipping God simply because the drums beat faster or the preacher is hollering at us to worship God.

One preacher in the church recently said 'You are not a Christian if you don't break into a sweat in the presence of God.' Now you can imagine how people would throw their arms around, bump into each other, scream at the top of their voices and worship God while the drums are beating faster and the preacher is hollering at us to worship God.

So which is the right way to worship God?

4. Am I right in questioning the church?

I do not know if it is right or wrong to 'intellectually' challenge the Word of God. Can I question something if it does not intellectually appeal to me? I am not talking of Creation or the birth of Jesus. No, I firmly believe in them and I hold them to be true. What I am talking about is questioning the rules & regulations imposed by the church. They do not seem to be rational to me. I don't intend to stir a rebellion but I want to know for myself whether these teachings are right.

But I worry if I am right in asking these questions. My biggest fear is - what if after I die (or at the Rapture), i realise that I was the one who was deceived? What if the Church is teaching what God intended us to be, in order to be the Bride of Christ? How would you know if the Church was right or wrong considering that you have not been to the other side?

4. Should a church be a community or not?

Despite the church's claims that they are preparing the people to be the Bride of Christ, the ground reality is far from it. Most of the assemblies have factions and there is a lot of cold-war in almost every assembly (at least in India). The informal teaching is 'No matter what, please don't have any business relationship with a member of the church. Don't even lease your house to a member of the church.'

I have pointed out the irony that the church members are not even united. And they always defend it by saying that nobody is perfect and that is why God has called us to follow Him.

4. How participative should a family be in the church activities?

Being important members of the church, my family are very active in everything. They follow the church leaders blindly and accept any responsibility that is thrust upon them. We have never had the time to spend together as a family. I am 26 years old and I have spent only one vacation with my parents when they came to visit me in the place I was working. Otherwise, the only travel I have done is in visiting our relatives in our hometown.

We don't go to the movies. We don't go out as a family. When we have a holiday the church organizes a special half-day prayer because they claim it is a good opportunity to bring people together. I can say that most of my church friends have never experienced 'quality family time'.

Personally, I have been very hurt by all the things that are going on around me. Though they have worship on 4 days every week, I go to church only on Sunday and I try to get out of there are quickly as possible. I have reached a point that I am very wary of people who claim to be very active in church. I almost distrust these people because I look at them from the way I have experienced my family. I don't think I would ever be an active member of the church after all that I have been through.

5. Are 'Divine Healing' services legitimate?

The church holds a lot of Divine Healing services for the people in the area. They distribute flyers inviting people to bring the sick for these services. They say 'The sick will be prayed for. Jesus Heals. Jesus saves.'

I have personally seen many people going back the same way they came. And the pain on their face is apparent. Probably they have lost that single hope which they had for their healing. Yes, there is a lot of healing taking place in the church. Sometimes they are miraculous too. But they do not have a '100% record'. So my question is, is it right to organize Divine Healing services when you cannot guarantee healing for all the participants?

6. Can churches ex-communicate members?

If I break any of the rules & regulations, I will not be allowed to partake of the Lord's table for 6 months. If I choose to leave the church, then I am a 'backslider'. If I marry a person who is not a member of the church, then my parents cannot attend my marriage. If they do, then they cannot partake of the Lord's table for 6 months. Even after the wedding, they will have to sever all contact with me. They cannot invite me home for a meal or for fellowship, no matter how spiritual I am. None of the other members can contact me or have any fellowship with me because I am a 'backslider'. They cannot even invite me to their wedding or other celebrations.

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The conclusion: This has been a really, really, long post. I apologize for any inconvenience it caused you. I have tried to keep things as short as possible. But since these are questions in my head I have digressed at times. I hope you understand and forgive me for that.

Two days back I had an argument with my mom about me playing the guitar for my friend's office party. They were singing some secular songs and my mom said that it is not right in God's eyes. I was very upset and I was thinking over this while I was driving to office. Then God put a song in my heart - 'Amazing Grace'. I sang it over and over again all throughout the drive. It seemed to me that God was reassuring me that I was okay, that no matter what I go through, His Grace is there for me.

What I really want to do is to give up on everything. I cannot have fellowship with my parents if I am not a part of this church. But I know my parents would feel hurt and upset. Nothing would shatter them more than me doing this. But I cannot suffer in silence anymore. Had I been 'blind' to everything and simply obeyed whatever the church commanded, things would have been different. Unfortunately, I am what I am.

I know that I need a lot of healing. I am physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually suffering from my childhood. And not everybody knows of it. Though I am undiagnosed, I exhibit the signs of a Bipolar Type A person. I have some ailments that have not been attended to by a physician because I am supposed to be praying about it and not going to a doc. I probably even need a psychiatrist's help but I cannot do that.

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Well, I have typed a lot. Let me know what you guys think. Even if you cannot advice me, I would appreciate some prayer support.

Thank you.

Pipp · Nov 6, 2014

I've definitely been in that stuck kind of feeling before. Most of the time when you feel like you've been blindly following something...you have. I'll be praying for you. I'm on my phone at the moment so I'm not going to type out a big reply. Keep asking God for leadership and guidance. Love ya bro and I'm sorry you're stuck in this difficult place.

Roh_Chris · Nov 6, 2014

Thank you for your reply sis. You can give me your advice when you have the time. Thank you for praying.

Nick01 · Nov 6, 2014

Hi Chris.

I want to preface this with a couple of things. Please do measure what I say against where I'm coming from. And I hope the post length is ok (an eye for an eye, a thesis for a thesis

)

I'm not Indian. I expect very much that there are all sorts of cultural considerations that come from living in Indian culture that are different from living in Australian culture. I have several friends from the sub continent, but most of them have lived most of their lives and are equally at home in subcontinental cultures and Western culture. I never get a sense, I feel, of what their full blown culture is like. My point is that, as I have to be aware in what ways Western values and culture play into the church culture I live in, so do you need to be aware of what ways your non-church culture plays into your church culture. Not everything every church says and does is a biblical imperative - all churches are somewhat syncretic in terms of practice, and in fact NEED TO BE, to be on God's mission. But that doesn't mean that culture should be dogma.

The second thing is that I am a fairly low church Reformed Evangelical. I have issues with a lot of Pentecostal theology (though not all - I have friends who are Reformed Charismatics, and while I don't agree with them on everything, I don't have real 'problems' with them either). I'm going to attempt to be theologically neutral about the Pentecostal movement per se, but just so you know.

Roh_Chris said:

I have to say, almost all of the points you listed below here at 1. I would disagree with on biblical exegetical grounds. I don't agree that the Bible teaches that those specific things are inherently wrong.

Should the church be involved in our regular lives? Yes. Should we live in whole-life devotion to God? Yes. Should we allow our church community life and our regular life to overlap, and for our church community to not just be a Sunday community? Yes. But by the same token, we are not set apart from the world in a physical sense - instead, we are not of the world, but we are in it. And not all that exists in the world today is bad, or wrong, and the Christian life is not fundamentally one of legalism, but of loving and joyful service.

Your church is not Moses, and does not speak with the authority of Moses. Miriam and Korah do not apply, unless your church wants to throw the Psalms, Job, Paul, and even the Lord Jesus under the bus as well!

I am wary of people who claim disagreement to be the devil's work - history is littered with abuses of that kind used as an excuse for abuse and for the maintenance of power. However, I think it is healthy to question your own motives - are you acting out of a desire to serve the Lord, out of a desire for truth, or out of purely selfish motives? But the question itself is never worthy of judgement, if you ask earnestly, seeking the Lord, and not merely because you want to rebel against (or for that matter, agree with) a human authority.

I don't want to bash musical worship, I think it can be good, is God given, and can be useful if it does not feel coerced or manipulative.

However:

"Therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God; this is your spiritual worship"

Ultimately your real worship has nothing to do with singing loudly or working yourself into a sweat.

"Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

I doubt your church would want to throw Luther under the bus, either, and he questioned the church in a way far beyond what you are!

If you question, and if you are wrong, but you follow the Lord Jesus and depend on him as the atoning sacrifice for your sin, you can laugh about it all in heaven later. You should never question for the sake of it, nor should you question on the basis of something or on a motivation that is unbiblical. But, again, many of the greatest moral failures in church history (let alone world history!) have come about because people refused to question. If you question in a spirit of love and service and humility, you can never go truly wrong.

Yes. The whole pattern of the early church is that people spent more than just two hours on Sunday together. People had lives, jobs, etc, but they were concerned for each other and loved each other beyond a Sunday service.

It's super easy to get sucked into spending a lot of time involved in 'trellis work', that is, doing all sorts of things involved in running a church, services, etc. I've been there. But the whole pattern, I think, of the church in the NT is that the wider church should be involved, not just a few. If other people are doing things, why not, and could they be? And is doing 'trellis work' ultimately depriving you of 'vine work', which is loving your neighbour as yourself, preaching the gospel, making disciples? Sometimes I fear the maintenance of 'church' and 'church services' and 'culture' is a distraction to mission, not an enhancement.

And certainly, I think family needs to be family not just at church, but outside, and that is something that time should be made for. It sounds like this is a conversation you could have with your family, to see what they think.

Grace-Like-Rain · Nov 6, 2014

Thank you for sharing all of this with us Chris. I'm very concerned about most of what you've shared. There seems to be a lot of control and abuse of power, along with misinterpretation of scripture and legalism. It looks like you already know that though. I would say that you should pray hard about these things, and then trust that the holy spirit is leading you toward truth.

Roh_Chris · Nov 6, 2014

Hey Nick, thank you for your reply! I am glad that you chose to give me a detailed reply.

I accept that the culture is a significant factor in this part of the world. But the problem is that my church has let the culture influence the way its leaders interpret the Bible. The restrictions on single men talking to single women, the dress code for church, the dress code for women, etc. are more 'man-interpreted'. So another question is, to what extent can culture affect a church?

Nick01 said:

Thank you for asking about my motive, Brother.

My questions are triggered by my search for the truth and my desire for an 'inner' healing. Even if the church is wrong, I do not intend to start a rebellion against the church because I do not want to be a stumbling block for the other members. If they are happy with what they hear, I would rather leave them alone. The questions about the church have been a big block in my spiritual life. I think as long as I am not happy with my environment, I will not be able to grow spiritually.

Nick01 said:

I have had this conversation with my family. But they are bound by the restrictions on the church and by the responsibilities they hold. They are part of the sunday school administration so they are responsible for organizing things, for planning activities, etc. Also, they help out in the other activities like serving food in the church, cleaning the place after the service and leading the small prayer gatherings in the local neighbourhood.

I don't resent my parents for being so active. But I am just disappointed that they failed in their second most important duty - of being a parent. It is only today that my mom and dad are trying to reach out to me. But I am unable to accept it because 1) it is too late and the chasm is already created, and 2) they still cannot take a TIME OUT for doing family activities.

Here is an example. My birthday always falls on the most important week for my parents. And always they are busy with the church that we don't even have time after everything is over to go out for a nice dinner. The last time I celebrated my birthday with my parents by cutting a cake was 20 years ago. I did not cut a cake until two years ago, when my friends made me do it. I am not sure if you understand my point, but these little joys matter a lot to me as a person.

The last two birthdays I have purposely gone on trips just to be away from them and not be disappointed. I spent the last two birthdays with my ex and I have very pleasant memories. This year, I did not even bother picking up their calls because I was just upset that I had to be away from them just to take some TIME OUT for my birthday. And this problem is not cultural. It is a church teaching. For the record, everybody celebrates their birthday in India. But my church says that we must not celebrate birthdays because it is not the will of God. Herod and Pharaoh did that and it ended in death.

(I am not lying or trying to 'falsely accuse' my church. I am just stating facts as they are, so you have the adequate information to give me some advice.)

Nick01 said:

I want to take a break for Christmas to clear my head. But I cannot do that without the permission for the church. And even if I do, I will have to go to a place where we have an assembly and I will have to attend that assembly. So you see, I am kind of 'stuck' in this place. I can go away under the pretext of some work .... in which case the permission is easy to get and I can say that I am working on Sundays also.

I will read I Corinthians over and over again. I am sure that there are hidden truths in that epistle which will give me the answer to my questions. Thank you Nick.

gypsygirl · Nov 6, 2014

chris:

even though i don't have a lot to say about this, i do want you to know that i have read everything, and prayed for you to led through this time of searching for answers and guidance you are seeking.

thanks for opening up with us in trust. please keep us updated.

p.s. btw, just because you have bad judgment in wagers, doesn't mean i wil hold it against you. ; p

JesusLives · Nov 6, 2014

Roh_Chris

You are such an upbeat guy in most of your posts one would never know the struggle you are facing without this post....This makes me sad for you and this struggle you are facing.

Advise this is a tough thing to give with the cultural differences....Maybe it would help if I asked you some questions for you to consider and think about.

How is your relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit?
Does your church/family help you feel the love as described in 1 Corinthians chapter 13?
Do you personally stay in touch with God with Bible reading and prayer does your church/family encourage this?
Have you asked God to teach you what He wants you to learn?
Does your church/family bring you into a closer relationship with God?
Does your church/family teach God is Love or are you in constant fear of a vengeful God?

Maybe because I am American I don't know but I bristle when I read anything about a church having so much control over the members that they have a hard time functioning in society..... example something which seems simple to me like going to a Doctor visit for medical help....I cringe.....but I don't live in India either and don't know the culture...maybe this is specific to your church...I just really don't know and like the other poster I don't want to steer you wrong either.

I also feel really bad for you in the fact that if you make a decision to find your own way or maybe select another church that then you loose contact with your family....This kind of thing just breaks my heart with sympathy towards you as it is just not fair to have to make those kind of choices.... Like a person is between a rock and a hard place....

But if you aren't growing spiritually and getting closer to God even Jesus said you must give up mother, father, etc take up your cross and follow me....

I found something that I copied below - think about it and pray about it - you ultimately have to make your own decision, but what you are facing is very hard and not fair.... My heart and prayers go out to you. Darlene/JesusLives
[h=3]What does Jesus mean in Luke 14:26-27?[/h]In luke 14 verse 26 to 27 in the new testament, Jesus said: If anyone comes to me and doesn’t hate his brother mother, father, wife and children and his own life, he cannot be my disciple. What does this mean because i thought you had to love others as much as you love yourself.
- someone

Gidday,

A great question that deserves a longer answer than I can give here. However I am constrained so I’ll keep it short.
Jesus is not teaching a new commandment of hating people. He is teaching about the cost of following Him.
The clue is in Luke 14:33 when Jesus says:
“In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.”
It’s about what we must be prepared to do to follow Jesus. It’s about giving up everything, even our very lives for Him. He doesn’t say, “by doing this you will get into heaven”. Jesus clearly teaches that through faith in Him we have eternal life (John 3:16). Through His death on the cross, we have the forgiveness of sins (Romans 6:23).
However, as His followers, are we willing to place Him in first position and place the most important people in our lives in second place?

Let’s paint the scene. In Luke 14:25, large crowds were travelling with Jesus because they had seen him healing people, feeding people and teaching people at no cost. Why not follow Jesus? You can get something for nothing. However, in this passage we see Jesus turn around to them that following him is not without cost - you have to place him before other important people in your lives. You even have to place him before yourselves.
To get his point across he uses very emotive and challenging language - you must hate everyone else. In so doing he is not saying that you do it literally but you must be prepared to put everything else second. So if your parent forbids you from following him then you must disobey them and so on.

Thankfully many of us have never been put in a situation where we have had to choose between Christ and our loved ones. But imagine if you had been captured by religious terrorists and they demand that you deny Christ or watch one of your friends die what would you choose? Jesus is saying you must choose him.

But it can be more subtle than this. In the stress of working and making ends meet we can be tempted to cut down of church activities, reading the bible or praying because we don’t have time. It may be the things you are working hard for are good things that will allow (say) your kids to have a better education. Jesus is saying don’t pursue these things at my expense - nothing, not even your wife and kids, is more important than following me and obeying me.

Its not easy but Jesus promises that he will provide for all our needs. See Matt 6:25-34 and also Mark 10:17-31. Both these passages talk of God’s rich provision for those who seek to follow Jesus above and beyond everything else.

End of copy....

Your walk and relationship with Jesus is most important and you are an adult now and will have to make decisions that are best for you and that walk...praying that you will continue to grow in the Lord and make choices that are pleasing to Him and your continued spiritual growth.... My heart goes out to your situation....Darlene

Roh_Chris · Nov 6, 2014

gypsygirl said:

Gypsygirl, thank you for your reply. Thank you for praying for me to be led through this time. I will keep you all updated as and when things happen.

P.S. I hope that you would accept the reality sooner than later. Your opponent's odds of winning are triple that of yours.

arwen-undomiel · Nov 6, 2014

I am glad you are questioning these things, many people don't think for themselves. I truly believe and pray that God will remain very close to you during this time and guide you to make decisions that will bring you closer to His truth and will, whatever that may look like. That you will be among those where only truth will be spoken to you, and only truth you will receive.

In terms of being concerned about dying, please be at rest and pray knowingly that God will not abandon you for this journey, is it possible He desires you to take His hand and teach you something? Invite him in closer than before, pray that He guides, moves in your life, opens your eyes, mind and heart.

And God will say to you "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."- Isaiah 43:19

Stay close to God, He will never forsake you. Rest your soul

Roh_Chris · Nov 6, 2014

JesusLives said:

Advise this is a tough thing to give with the cultural differences....Maybe it would help if I asked you some questions for you to consider and think about.

How is your relationship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit?
In my childhood, I blamed God for what I went through. I even went to the point of questioning His existence. It was hard for me to experience the love of Christ when I did not experience the love of my parents. Today, I am on the path to recovery. I know my Saviour, and I love Him with all I have. I have a personal walk with Jesus and I know I am His child. There is a lot of ground to gain between my God and me, and this is why I want to be in the right spiritual environment.

Does your church/family help you feel the love as described in 1 Corinthians chapter 13?
I am not saying that I am not loved, but I can't say whether church/family helps me feel the love as described in I Corinthians 13 because I don't know how that love feels. Sorry. This is why I am sharing these problems on CC Singles and not with my church/family because I have nowhere else to go.

Do you personally stay in touch with God with Bible reading and prayer does your church/family encourage this?
Yes. I personally stay in touch with God through Bible reading and prayer. My church/family have always been particular about this. But their method of compelling me to do it did not work well with me. I have sort of re-learned these things now on my own.

Have you asked God to teach you what He wants you to learn?
I have asked Him and I am still asking Him. I am waiting on Him for a clear guidance on what I must do.

Does your church/family bring you into a closer relationship with God?
Not with the kind of environment that I am in. But there are other members (including my parents) who have immensely benefited from the same environment.

Does your church/family teach God is Love or are you in constant fear of a vengeful God?
I am constantly in fear of a vengeful God. I still don't know if I am right in asking these questions.

Maybe because I am American I don't know but I bristle when I read anything about a church having so much control over the members that they have a hard time functioning in society..... example something which seems simple to me like going to a Doctor visit for medical help....I cringe.....but I don't live in India either and don't know the culture...maybe this is specific to your church...I just really don't know and like the other poster I don't want to steer you wrong either.
It is not a cultural problem to not seek medical help. It is a church teaching. We are supposed to pray to God for healing even if it is a cancer or a heart attack. Plus they say that we must not rely on the wisdom of a man who can make mistakes but on the wisdom of God who can never make a mistake. My own friend had a bad fracture in his left arm and he had to get it operated. He was punished for that. I know that every 'sane person' in India goes to a doctor for medical help.

(My comments are in green above... )

Thank you for sharing that passage with me. Although I am afraid to break my parents' hearts (I shudder to think what it would do to my mom), I am more insecure of my questions. What if I am wrong?

cinder · Nov 6, 2014

Grace-Like-Rain said:

What Grace said. And since I don't have time right now to write a proper lengthy response. Short form is from what you've said your church sounds outright spiritually abusive and manipulative. While some of the ideas you mention do seem to be similar to Indian cultural attitudes (at least as I understand them after spending a few weeks in the Jaipur area once), that they are so authoritarian about it and grasping for any Biblical justification they can find should be setting off the alarm bells. But it was easier to google spiritual abuse and cults and this is one resource that I found that looked short and clear enough to be useful. Is Your Church Free from Cultic Tendencies?

Lynx · Nov 6, 2014

After all that advice, all I can say is I'm a pentecostal minister (local license) with the United Pentecostal Church International... and some of those things listed in the OP are definitely not a result of your church being a "pentecostal" church.

As for standards: Roh_Chris some of the standards you listed are valid, some are outmoded, some seem to be a result of the church being in your particular country... but some are rather odd, even to me. However, I am not even in your country, much less of your church, so I can't really say whether your church is "controlling" or merely setting standards based on what is needed for their region. What may seem ludicrous in one area may be necessary in another. So I have learned not to judge other churches even in other towns, much less in other countries. I have heard of churches disagreeing sharply with each other about certain standards, but the circumstances in their separate communities were very different.

For example, in one town the bowling alley (do you have bowling alleys there? A big place where people go to bowl a few games, basically) is a seedy place, basically a bar with bowling lanes, and the church there has a standard against bowling. In another town the bowling alley is a family-friendly place and the church there has no such standard. The first church can't say the second is too lax and morally corrupt for not having such a standard and the second church cannot claim the first church is too legalistic for having such a standard. They each have standards to protect their congregations in the regions where they live.

The basic fall-back question I use when determining whether I will follow a standard is this: Is this standard harming me? "Is it helping me" is invalid, as sometimes I cannot see the danger from which the standard is preventing me. But I can evaluate whether this standard is doing me harm. If it does not harm me then I will follow it.

Of course I cannot say whether your church's standards are harming you as I am not familiar with the society where you are. Some seem rather restrictive and controlling to me - especially the arranged marriages and having to okay with the church things like vacations. And "no dating or courtship" would seem to be directly against what I understand as right. But the decisions are ultimately yours to make. Nobody here can make them for you, as we are not where you are.

As for divine healings: They are a fact. God does heal, and nobody in the whole Bible Discussions forum will ever be able to argue me out of that because I've seen it for myself. However, God also gave us brains to use, and the medical practice is a good use for them. I would always pray about a problem FIRST... some only turn to God when everything else has failed, but God should be the first resort... but going to a doctor is not an abrogation of basic christianity. The doctors around here are happy to see a pastor come in to pray for a patient before surgery - doctors want to SAVE lives, and the good ones don't care if the credit goes to them or to God.

The only reason I could see for your church specifying not to go to a doctor for any reason, is if the medical profession is full of witch doctors. In some countries going to the "doctor" is basically going to the devil for help. But then I don't know much about the state of witchcraft in India.

As for the "right" way to worship God: Well, we have all kinds at my church. Some are quiet, some weep, some shout, some dance, etc. Sister Carol, when the Spirit hits her she laughs. Go figure. I refer to John chapter 4. When the woman at the well realized Jesus was (at least) a prophet she immediately asked the one thing that was most important to her: how are we supposed to worship God? Jesus answered that the important thing was that we worship God in spirit and in truth. If all your worship is active, without solid foundation in the truth, it is unstable and can be blown down by anyone who comes preaching another doctrine and calling your worship false. If all your worship is doctrine, rules and regulations, it can be knocked down by anyone who has the joy that your worship is lacking. Only in spirit AND in truth is your worship sound and endurable.

In the case of worship, I would ask if you have read the whole Bible. And if you have, does your church match what the Bible says? I live in what we call the Bible Belt, there are many churches around here, and I've seen churches that worship God only in the spirit - with a lot of noise and excitement - and churches that worship God only in the truth - rules and doctrine - but the churches where I feel God's presence are those that know the Bible, know what they believe, and know God's joy and peace.

As for whether you should question the church, that is a bit more problematic to answer... what do you mean by "the church?" Your particular church? The organization of which it is technically a member? If there were something going on in my church that I thought was wrong I would certainly question it. But (and please forgive me if I assume too much here) your question seems to be more about what you should do about what you perceive to be wrong. If there were something going on in my church that I thought was wrong, what I would do about it would depend on many factors.

As for the church being a community, my church certainly is. My best friends are there, because they're the ones I find most enjoyable to be around. But we don't exclude participation in other community events hosted by people not in our church. But there again... I'm not where you are and I don't know your community. I know my community and it's a fairly good one. What I DO know is I've seen communities that I wouldn't want anyone I care about to be a part of. So I can't really say whether your church is wrong or right.

Hmm... with all the words other people have put in this thread you might not even get down to my post. And I can't say I've given you any definite help anyway. :-/ But what I have written is what I know to be true. Go with God brother, and may you find your way.

Charcoal · Nov 6, 2014

I'm gonna marinate on this one a while before I answer. and wait to write when I feel I have time to put into it.
I want to give it the respect it deserves, so there will be some praying about it.

I think you may already know some of what I will say.

I think you already know what the real answers are to may of the questions that you have (asked and unasked).

I think we all sometimes need someone to affirm the truths we know that are not perfectly comfortable to accept.

I think I am very proud of you for not only questioning things, but for having a commitment to finding answers.

I think I am complimented to be included as a brother to you.

Proceed carefully and prayerfully, but Boldly.
-Cole

Lynx · Nov 6, 2014

About the arranged marriages in particular, I could counter with David alone. His arranged marriage to King Saul's daughter didn't turn out so well. Nabal's widow, however, was a keeper.

JesusLives · Nov 6, 2014

Roh_Chris

Let me type to you a bit about the love of God. Bible tells us that While we were yet sinners that God sent His Son to die for us, before we ever knew we needed a Savior God had a plan for us to save us.

I could possibly believe that God were vengeful if He had destroyed Lucifer/satan when he became prideful in heaven wanting to be equal to or above God. God could have just zapped Lucifer out of existence at that time, but chose not to do so. Meaning that if there were no satan then Adam and Eve would have never fallen into sin as there would have been no one to tempt their loyalty toward God in the Garden of Eden.

But God did not want His created beings to fear Him and serve Him as robots. God wants our responsive love toward Him.... He wants us to want to love Him freely.

Unfortunately for us on earth the plan of salvation has to totally play out and the reason being in the Bible it says sin will not rise up a second time. Once this earth is over and the rest of God's created beings along with us see the results of what sin has done and can do.... no one else would ever want to repeat this horrible process of sin and the death and destruction that results from it and most costly in the death of God's Son Jesus for our reconciliation. Sin separates us from God the worst effect of sin.

God does not sit up on His throne in heaven and wait for us mere mortals to screw up so that He can zap us with some kind of punishment or throw us in hell for being bad/sinning. Instead He came up with a plan to save us and reconcile us to Himself at the cost of the death of Jesus. Yes, there will be a punishment with eternal consequences in the very end for the wicked, but they will have had a chance to choose to accept Jesus as their Savior and because we have free will God will not force this choice on any of us.

The wicked would never be happy in heaven as sin separates us from God and they would be miserable in the same place as God. I know when I was choosing to do things my own way God was the last being I wanted to be around my choice not God's. So God in mercy will destroy the wicked and it says death will also be done away with.

When I think about God's plan of salvation for us I see nothing but love and Him trying to woo us back to Himself. He gave Jesus to die in our place for sins that we committed as Jesus lived a perfect life never sinning, but Jesus took our sins on Himself and died in our place that is nothing but love in the purest form. So God could never be vengeful toward us when He has gone to such great lengths to save us. Sometimes when we sin bad things do happen to us but usually it is a result of the consequences of the sin we committed not that God was zapping us in punishment.

I hope this has helped a little for you to see more that the Bible verse God is love it true and sure. I can provide Bible texts if you need them or google some of the phrases I used and find them yourself. You may have already read them at some point anyway as you are a very smart guy. Blessings to you as you continue to walk with Jesus... Darlene JesusLives

ChandlerFan · Nov 6, 2014

Chris, first of all thank you for taking the time to type all of that out and let us in on your struggle. Life does get a lot more difficult when you grow up never being assured of your parents' love for you and experiencing the love of a family. I have to say that I am actually really impressed by the way you have handled everything so far with all of the pressure, stress, and legalistic oppression you've faced. I'm sorry you're dealing with so much hard stuff right now, and I do hope that in time you will have a season of peace where you don't need to worry about a lot of this as often.

I wanted to address your questions, and hopefully my answers will be at least somewhat helpful.

Roh_Chris said:

Chris, I want to be frank with you. Your church is grossly legalistic. It is not even close to what a church should be. The only one of these that I could see any spiritual benefit to would be going without a TV, but not being allowed to have one via the authority of the church is not right.
In all of these cases, your church has taken a Scripture and instead of honoring the heart of the law, they are only worried about living by the letter of it. By restricting its members' behavior in all of these ways, the heart behind the Scripture is completely lost. In these different areas that you talked about, the majority of people do those things with no sinful intent or consequence whatsoever. There is nothing sinful about a woman wanting to look good and practice hygiene or even wear pants. There is nothing sinful about watching television (although it can very easily become a waste of time). There is nothing sinful about dating or courtship.
And I waited to address these last two: It is utter insanity for your church to suggest that its members not see a doctor when they have ailments. The fact that we have doctors is actually a gift of God and an act of grace toward us. It actually makes me frustrated and almost angry that any church would teach that. It is utter insanity.
It's also unbelievably controlling that you need to have your church's approval to do things like take a vacation, and it's completely unbiblical that you not be allowed to fellowship with believers of other denominations. The Bible promotes the unity of believers over and over again.

Just by this information alone, Chris, I would strongly advise you to take that step towards leaving this church. It really is a cult. It is no surprise to me that this is killing you spiritually. The gospel gives us freedom to live and enjoy all of the good things God has given us, and to walk away from those things that might turn our hearts away from God. I hate that this will have so much consequence as far as your family goes, but Chris, for your own well-being you really need to leave this church.
The church's role is not to control the behavior of its members to keep them from sinning. The church's role is to serve as a means of fellowship for believers and as an extension of Jesus Christ to those who don't believe. The church should be all about loving and serving rather than controlling and manipulating.

Roh_Chris said:

That's not the gospel at all whatsoever. The gospel says that our sin separates us from God, and that Jesus came to die for us so that He could impart His righteousness to us, that we might be able to break free from sin and live in an intimate, personal relationship with God. God is all about destroying sin, and that's why one day all sin will be destroyed. But for those who choose to follow God, their sin is forgiven. Chris, all of your past, present, and future sin is forgiven. I know your church might have confused you about what is sin and what isn't--I don't know where you're at with that--but it is forgiven. God loves you deeply, and when He looks at you He looks at you with a smile, not with disappointment. God is not waiting to strike down those who sin against Him, and He is not waiting for the first opportunity He gets to cast someone into hell. He wants a relationship with you, and He extends mercy upon mercy to you so that you might experience joy and He would get the glory. God does not get glory from begrudging or fearful submission, He gets glory from joyful obedience that flows out of a person powerfully experiencing His grace.
The only way a person will ever experience the wrath of God against their sin is if they choose to reject God completely. But for believers, all of God's wrath toward sin was poured out on Jesus on the cross.

Roh_Chris said:

This is kind of a big question that would take a thread in itself to answer, but your views on this are right. The way your church does worship again sounds very cultic and not at all godly. Really at a basic level, worship is a response to what God has done for you, so worship should flow out of the heart. So for me, I am most ready to worship when I fully grasp and realize the gravity of what God has done for me in saving me from my sin by dying for me. When I realize just how much grace God shows me, I just want to worship Him however I can. Having someone yell at you to worship God and forming a holy mosh pit does not in any way result in authentic worship. For a pastor to say that true worship and true Christian requires sweating is as stupid and unbiblical as it sounds. Worship is all about the heart.

Roh_Chris said:

The way you know whether or not a church's teachings are right is the weigh them against the Bible. I know that your church gives reasons from certain passages of Scripture for some of the things that it says and does, but you have to read each verse or passage of Scripture in light of the whole thing, and your church's practices and teachings do not reflect what the Bible as a whole teaches.
With that said, it is completely okay and even healthy to question your church's teachings and the teachings of the Bible. I have had questions about the Bible before, and what's great about it is it drives you to study things further, and you actually end up learning a lot and growing in your faith. I wouldn't encourage doubting for doubting's sake, but when you have real questions arising in your heart, it is completely okay to own those questions and to seek out the truth. God gave us minds for a reason, after all

Blindly accepting something as truth is going to weaken the foundations of your faith.

Roh_Chris said:

A church should be a community! Acts 2 provides a cool picture of what a church community should look like. It should be a place where believers can go to worship God together, and a safe place where non-believers can go to seek the truth and find freedom from their sin. It should be a place where the people are actively loving and serving each other, and together serving those outside of the church. It should be a place where deep friendships are formed and spiritual growth and discipleship is constantly taking place.

Roh_Chris said:

Well, like I said before, I hope that you would not only not be active there, but would break away if you can. I know that's hard, though.
I do believe that families should be actively involved in a church, but not to the detriment of the family's relationships with each other. The church is meant to be a place of community, encouragement, and growth, but not a place that consumes your entire life so that other responsibilities (like being a good parent) are left at the wayside. You said earlier that parenting was the second most important responsibility behind being active in the church, but being good parents to your children is actually the more important responsibility. That may be a bit surprising to read, but it's true. If you had the choice to be a better church-goer or a better parent, you should choose to be a better parent every time, and I'm sorry that wasn't the case for your parents.

Roh_Chris said:

In a general sense, I believe that they are because God has healed people in that context, but with your church specifically it's hard to say. I don't think your church is wrong in organizing such services, and the idea of praying over someone with an ailment is great. I think along with that, though, there needs to be biblical, theologically solid teaching regarding ailments and healing, whether it be at these services or others. The reality is that God does not heal everyone, and while that's hard to process sometimes and difficult to understand, we also know that we can trust that God is good and that He understands our suffering because He endured it Himself. We also know that one day there will be no more sickness, pain, or ailment, and that is something we can rejoice in. That reality and those truths should be regularly taught if these services are regularly held.

Roh_Chris said:

The short answer to your question is yes, church's are able to excommunicate members. I would qualify that, though, by saying that the church needs to have biblical grounds for excommunicating someone. Disobedience to your church's legalistic teachings is not biblical grounds for excommunication because its teachings do not reflect what is actually sinful and what isn't. Even the restriction against taking the Lord's supper is a really silly, legalistic rule and isn't at all biblical.

Choosing to leave a church isn't even biblical grounds for excommunication. If I chose to leave my church now, I would be getting phone calls from people telling me they missed me and asking me how I was doing and what was going on in my life. They would want to know why I wasn't showing up anymore out of spiritual concern for me. They would hope that I came back. They wouldn't be out to label me a backslider and excommunicate me. That's how a healthy church should function, and how its members should view those who stop coming.
Biblical grounds for excommunication is found mainly in Matthew 18. It says that if you see a person living in sin, to go to them and lovingly confront them about it. If they refuse to repent and continue living in that sin, then you are to go back to him later with one or two others and again try to call him away from his sin and into repentance. If at that point he still refuses, then you are to bring the matter before the church. After all of that, if he still continues to live rebelliously in his sin, then he is to be looked at as if he were not a believer and he would have to be excommunicated. But this process is not supposed to be a quick or easy one. Someone being excommunicated is a heartbreaking thing, and that process should be carried out over an extended period of time with much prayer for that person and for wisdom about how to handle the situation, and with a great deal of pleading with this person to turn away from their sin. Thankfully I have never been a part of a church that has had to practice such discipline on one of its members, but it does happen. In the end, though, the grounds need to be biblical--they can't be based on the unbiblical teachings of the church--and the process should not be handled lightly.

I hope that some of what I said helps you out, Chris. Hopefully I did not come across to harshly. I just wanted to be honest with you.
Thanks again for letting us in on this struggle you're going through so that we can be praying for you and encouraging you. If you ever want to talk more or ask more questions, you can always feel free to PM me and I will try to help you out as best as I can. I hope you are able to get away from this church and find a more Christ-centered, freedom-laden community to worship God in. Hang in there

This will all pass someday.

Grace-Like-Rain · Nov 6, 2014

ChandlerFan said:

This situation has been heavy on my heart. I prayed for the Lord to bring someone wise and godly along to address these difficult questions in a careful way. I cried when I read your response ChandlerFan. It's such a powerful thing for God to use one person to speak into the heart of another.

Roh_Chris, it's obvious to me that the Lord is working hard in your life right now. He is present and moving in this situation. He's taking you on a journey that will be difficult and a bit scary. But he hasn't left you to go through it alone.

I have never been a "trust your feelings" sort of person. But the holy spirit is in us, and convicts and guides us, and we have to consider that. You may be wondering if your feelings are truly from God or from darkness or just from your own human nature. I think you should trust that God IS speaking to you. Your questions came from somewhere, and they are good questions that need to be asked.

PopClick · Nov 6, 2014

Chris!

I remember when you first joined cc, and briefly mentioned that you didn't feel loved at your church. I recommended trying out a different church, and I thought that you would be able to tell if you were in the right place... because it would feel right, and peaceful, and you would see evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. I didn't realize what repercussions simply trying out a new church might have for you, and I'm sorry if I gave my opinion too hastily or unfairly.

I remember a time when I was much younger, when I loved praying and did it all the time. I heard some grownup saying that everybody should spend such and such amount of time praying every day. It sounded good to me... so I set a timer to make sure that I was meeting that arbitrary goal. Well, I couldn't pray with that stupid timer there. I was too stressed out about trying to pray for this exact amount of time, that I couldn't pray at all. It had turned from something I wanted to do out of love, to something I had to do for fear of sinning, or not meeting someone's expectations, or failing in some other way.

It's the same thing I think of when I'm reading your thread. Not having a television can be a good thing that you do because you think it is right and God-honoring to be without one. Or it can be something that you do in order to brag to other people to make yourself sound spiritual. Or it can be something that you do because your church told you that you couldn't have one or else you would be punished. But it's the motive behind the action here that makes it good or bad, because not having a television is not necessarily good or bad. Televisions are lawful, but not necessarily profitable.

I'm going to recommend reading Romans chapter 14, because I think it would be helpful. Particularly the part where Paul says that nothing is unclean in itself, but if someone thinks it is unclean, then for them it is unclean. It might be hard at this point to tell the difference between God prompting you not to do something, and unnecessary feelings of condemnation from your church saying that this thing is sinful. But I will definitely pray that you know the difference and only listen to what is proper. It might help to realize why you feel unsettled about doing something. Let's say that you were thinking of taking a trip, and you feel unsettled like it isn't the right thing to do. Was your first thought, "my church will not approve"? Or, "I should pray first and see if perhaps I need to do something else"? If you find yourself more concerned about what your church will think, then just take a moment to realize that your hesitation is likely not coming from God.

Ultimately, you are responsible to God. Your church may share His opinions on certain matters, but the bottom line is that any given thing is only wrong if God says it is. And I do think that your church is going WAY overboard with its laws.

Galatians 5 says some cool things about the freedom that we have in Christ, particularly this part: For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. That says a lot about what we are to use our freedom for, and I don't think that you are asking any of these questions in order to find excuses to sin. I think that you legitimately want to please God and grow in Christ. If you were saying, "well, I can get away with doing this and this because the bible doesn't SPECIFICALLY call it sin..." Then I might have a different answer for you. But you want to know the truth about these things, and I, like a lot of others who have responded here, think that you already know a lot of the answers that you're seeking. You just need to realize and accept it.

As far as whether it's right to question these things... Yes! Question everything, and check it against God's word. Humans can mess up anything, whether it be through ignorance, or an attempt to control their congregation, or good motives but bad understanding. Question the heck out of those teachings. A lot of them won't stand up under your questions.

Hugs and prayers for you, to have peace, guidance, truth, and everything else you need. You already know that I think you're a cool bear.

BananaPie · Nov 6, 2014

Roh_Chris said:

I have my share of unpleasant memories, some of which I still carry to this day -
that I usually thought my parents hated me,
Your parents don't hate you. If they did, they would have tortured you out of their life long ago, but that never happened.

that I usually cried myself to sleep,
You need to forgive any grievance you believe your parents did to you. Learn from your parents' mistakes, and do better than they should the Lord grant you to become a parent.

the imaginary friends I made to whom I would talk to almost every day (I still do, sometimes), the voices in my head,
my attention-deficit and attention-seeking behavior...
You may want to seek medical advice for these symptoms. Don't take it lightly, for this kind of stuff can be treated with meds.

...All I did was put on a good mask which held itself until I came back to my room.
Practicing sincerity with who you are may bring you much relief.

A brief on my church: My church is a Pentecostal church. ...
May sure that Church does not teach Oneness, but are Trinitarian.

My struggle: ...
1. How influential should a church be, in a Christian's life?
Christ is the Head of the Church, and He should always be the only influence in our life.

The Church I go to, has strict rules and regulations for its members. And all the rules and regulations are based on the Scriptures. The punishment for breaching these rules and regulations is usually a suspension from partaking of the Lord's table for a period of 6 months.
This in itself is a major RED FLAG because nowhere in the entire Bible in any version ever does it say to suspend anybody "for a period of 6 months." That policy is entirely Pastor 1:1

Here are some of them -
- Women are forbidden from wearing any ornaments or going to a beauty parlour even to get their facial hair removed (I Peter 3:3). What do married women do for a wedding band?

- Women cannot wear jeans or any women's clothing that looks like a pair of pants (Deuteronomy 22:5). Legalism. Men are to wear blue-color tzitzi (fringes) made of wool on the 4 corners of their shirts "throughout their generations" as a reminder of the commandments God is giving them (Numbers 15:38-39). Why are the women subject to Deuteronomy, but the men are not subject to Numbers?

- TVs are forbidden at home (Proverbs 21:4, where the 'light of the wicked' is the TV)
We don't watch TV either, and my parents and grandparents had TV restrictions when I was growing up as well.

- Church members are expected not to go to a doctor or resort to medicines when they have an ailment. Even if it is cancer or a fracture, they ought to wait on God for their healing (Exodus 15:26, Matthew 8:17, I Peter 2:24 and many more)
This is classic cult-control behavior.

- Every activity has to be done only with the permission of the church (Hebrews 13:17).
This is classic cult-control behavior also. The RCC has this kind of grip on its subjects to this day.

- Dating and courtship is forbidden. Dating has always been forbidden in conservative congregations, but courtship is the healthy way for saints to befriend on exclusive terms.

Parents and the church 'arrange' the groom and the bride.
There is no Bible verse to justify this practice. This is a Hindu cultural arrangement, not of Judaic origin.

- Movies, secular music and rock music (even if it is gospel), are of the devil.
Well, you may not go to University either because the Devil himself teaches Evolution & Atheism there.

- In some assemblies, even using body care items like perfumes, deodorants, skin cream, etc. is forbidden because they belong to the fashions of this world.
There is no Bible verse for this practice either.

- We cannot have fellowship with non-members of the Church even if they are spiritual followers of Christ
Classic Cult big time! JW & Mormon teach this stuff.

...my spirit grieves for you, Brother; I need to pray for the Lord's mind to guide us.

Some advice would be much appreciated here ...

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