Some advice would be much appreciated here ...

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MidniteWelder

Guest
#21
Hi Roh_Chris
What a conflicting dilemma eh?
I can see and understand that your church perhaps has good motives at heart in trying to keep evil out of peoples lives
At the same time we need to understand
"the road to heaven isn't paved by best intentions."

We are the temple
The church serves Christ
not the church serves the church.
Therefore YOU serve Christ not the church.

Meaning, you personally serve to Gods calling in your own life, not what others call you to do.
For instance my calling is not another persons calling.
Someone may say I need to serve God in a way that meets their expectations.
While I serve Christ in various other ways which God has called me to be available for.
Being those outside the church.
We need to Hear his voice, seek his face.
While we are told to respect our parents and others.
We cannot put them above Christ.

Christ exemplified this by stating in Luke 14:26 and I quote
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

I don't want to define what Christ means by "hate" in that statement since we all may differ in the definition of hate which could differ from Gods.
But I would like to post an explanation which makes sense to me by Jesus putting in context what he meant with an example.

Jesus relates a metaphor about a man who builds a house without counting the cost and finds that he cannot follow through with what he set out to do. He leaves the house unfinished because he cannot pay what is required. Jesus is showing us the explanation to His difficult statement—that we must count the cost of discipleship.
This is the point of the passage. In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Therefore, if our parents will not follow Jesus, or even if they disown us for being Christians, we must still choose Christ over them. It is in this sense that we are "hating" our family members who reject the Lord or reject us because of the Lord.

Likely because it would actually be them thinking we hate them for not choosing our own flesh and blood over the guiding of the Holy Spirit.
So in a way it's like Jesus is saying, "yeah, let 'em think you hate them, You serve me and you show it"

This seems to line up with my perspective that if anyone requires you do something unbiblical or outside of the conviction Christ puts in your heart....follow your Shepherd over people.
 
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Shouryu

Guest
#22
I have much to say. But no time or strength with which to say it at this moment.

I've a holiday this weekend, I shall endeavour to devote a few hours to respond to you Biblically, my friend.
 
A

arwen-undomiel

Guest
#23
...my spirit grieves for you, Brother; I need to pray for the Lord's mind to guide us.
Makes me wonder if Jesus himself tried to enter the church, would they reject him?

-------------------------

One thing about communion- it is the body and blood of Christ, who are they to deny someone to partake in the sacred spiritual mysteries of communion? It is not only the table of the church, but of Christ. No man has authority over Christ. It is his will that whoever may want to meet him, will meet him there.
 
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May 3, 2013
8,719
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#24
Ufff!

I spent 13 years married to a pentescostal... I knew several things there and we divorced (part of my "religious" background).

I don´t know about you, but I won´t allow the church or people rule about that religious freedom I have gained by learning by attending to several churches I spent sometime... The only thing I miss is the Lord´s supper (not the Lord´s breakfast).

Recently I thought to be part of a keila, a sort of sinagogue, but I quit that idea for being more hermit.

I have a Catholic friend who is so baised now that he is sure "his" perfect church would save him because us, the protestants, chose the wrong places and the wrong churches...

I´m glad you started to walk your own way to where GOD will point you to go.
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
4,728
58
48
#25
I really think I am blessed to have everybody replying here. I strongly feel that there was a reason why I came to this chat and why I have found fellowship in this place. Thank you to each of you who have replied here. Thank you for your concern and thank you for your prayers. I cannot stress enough how important this has been for me and for my future.

I spent all of yesterday evening thinking over some of the questions raised by the brethren here. I am going to respond to some of the posts here in order to give a clearer picture about my situation.


What Grace said. And since I don't have time right now to write a proper lengthy response. Short form is from what you've said your church sounds outright spiritually abusive and manipulative. While some of the ideas you mention do seem to be similar to Indian cultural attitudes (at least as I understand them after spending a few weeks in the Jaipur area once), that they are so authoritarian about it and grasping for any Biblical justification they can find should be setting off the alarm bells. But it was easier to google spiritual abuse and cults and this is one resource that I found that looked short and clear enough to be useful. Is Your Church Free from Cultic Tendencies?

Thank you for replying and for sharing that link Cinder.

I accept that culture could influence a church’s thinking, but I don’t think they can be authoritarian about it and use the Bible to justify it. There are many, many more absurd practices that just disturb my spirit, if you know what I mean.

I read the link and I critically evaluated my church against the points mentioned. Here are some of the red flags that showed up.

1. Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, etc.?
Yes.
My pastor cannot move a finger without the permission from his elder (shall we call it as ‘boss’)? He cannot even visit his own flock without the permission from his ‘boss’. And all this is justified in the name of ‘leading of the church’. As we are called to be humble and obedient, everybody has to submit to the higher authority.

2. Is loyalty to Jesus and to one’s own calling placed before loyalty to pastor and church?
Depends.
If your calling conflicts with the church’s interpretation of how one’s calling must be, then you are in trouble. And whatever be your calling, you are supposed to do it under the ‘authorisation’ of the church. It is because only the pastor of your church can tell you whether the calling is truly from God or not.

3. Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is it approachable?
Depends on the questions.
If they are questions like the ones I have asked here, then I will hear the same arguments again (with Biblical references). Oh and being a member of the church for 26 years, I am expected not to have these questions.

5. Does your pastor readily admit his errors?
Can my pastor make errors?
He is led by the Spirit of God so he cannot make any errors. (Not kidding!)
Last week in the sermon, he made a few errors. And I just sat there shaking my head and thinking ‘How can the Spirit of God make an error like that?’

6. Does your pastor avoid boasting or hinting at a “special anointing”?
No.
He holds the charge over us because he is a pastor. And he is a pastor because he has a “special anointing” from God to lead us. None of us have that, apparently.

7. Is your pastor truly humble?
What do you mean by humble? Yes, he leads a simple lifestyle. But he has a high spiritual standard. And he has a “special anointing”. So in which sense are you referring to as humble?
(Sorry, a lot of these terms have become ‘grey areas’ for me after my conflicts in the church.)

8. Are the sermons based on clear Biblical truths, not on “original revelations” or ax-grinding?
Sometimes.
He has a “special anointing”, which means that he gets “original revelations” that the common members won’t get. And these are called “deeper truths”. The reason why our church is “more special” than the other churches is because we have these “deeper truths”.

9. Does your church interact with other churches?
NO! NO! NO!
We are “called to be separate” and God has blessed us with leaders who have a “special anointing” and who give us such “deeper truths”. So we cannot have a fellowship with other churches.
- We cannot sing the songs of other churches if they are not included in our church hymn book. That is because all other songs may not be spiritually edifying.
- We cannot attend another church fellowship because they may teach a contrary doctrine or they may lead us astray.
- Marriage must only happen within the church. Or else you will have to face the consequences.
Need I say more?

10. Does your church staff avoid secrecy?
Not clear on this question.

11. Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)?
No.
Everything comes down from the “powers above”. We are the sheep and they are the sheperds.

12. Does your church see itself as just one organ of the Body of Christ, and not the main one?
Uhm, correction.
The church sees itself as “THE BRIDE OF CHRIST”. A lot of the members believe that we are the only ones who have the spiritual standard to be raptured when Christ comes.

13. Is your church truly friendly?
Not clear on this question.

14. Does your church emphasize ministry to people rather than church programs?
Not clear on this question.

15. Are especially needy people cared for lovingly in your church?
If they are members of the church who are in the “good books” of the church, then yes.

16. Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave?
If we are leaving to another assembly, then we are encouraged and loved. The new assembly will even support us and help us settle down.
If we are leaving the church, then we are counted as “backsliders”. And other church members are forbidden from having any fellowship with such backsliders.
- No invitations for marriages or other celebrations.
- Don’t even entertain them at your home for a dinner.

17. Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed?
No. (Read my response to 16 above).

18. Do the pastor and congregation avoid attacking and using as object lessons, former members or those who disagree?
No.
They are examples to the church of God’s punishment for the “backsliders”. (Example – look what happened to Korah & Company).

19. Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together?
Not sure how this is done in other churches. Our church encourages family prayer but not much of family time.
For example, there are married men and women who work 24x7 in church without going to their families. One of my church friends drives the pastor around. He got married only less than a year. But he has not been relieved of his work by the church. His wife waits in church until 10 p.m. for him to be done with his work and then drive her home. Now the couple have started fighting because he has hardly spent any time with her. It will most probably end in a divorce.
While some members may criticize my friend, some others may argue that his wife should have supported him. She should have rejoiced that her husband was working in the house of the Lord. Didn’t David crave to spend one day in the house of the Lord?
(I haven’t even opened my mouth to my friend because I know he is not going to accept my advice.)

21. Are you encouraged in your own calling?
(As in point 2), it depends. If it conflicts with the “leading” of the pastor, then it will not be encouraged.
Didn’t Samuel tell Saul “obedience is better than sacrifice”? If your pastor does not let you do it, then obey. God will honour your decision to abide by his leading.

23. Are your children happy to attend church?
When I was a child, I was not happy. Many children who have questions like me do not like to come to church.

24. Are you happy to bring unsaved friends to your church?
No. I brought one and I figured it was not a good idea.

26. Are people encouraged to hear from God for themselves?
Yes, but if it is matters of finance, business, personal calling, or other major decisions then they are also expected to “consult” the pastor and get his guidance. If the pastor’s guidance is contrary to what God told you, then you are expected to obey him.

27. Is there a single behavior standard for all people in the church?
Yes.
Like a “church code”.

29. Is the joy of the Lord present in your church?
Not clear on this question.

30. Are you free from fear in your church?
No.

31. Do you think about God and Jesus than you do about your pastor and your church?
I am torn between what I know God from the Bible and what the church tells me He is. So I cannot answer this question.

32. Does your pastor include himself in any calls for repentance and forgiveness?
Not clear on this question.
The pastor asks members who have gone against the teachings of the church, to repent and ask forgiveness. (I may have to do this in the church for asking these questions here.)

33. Are you clear that the pastors and elders never exaggerate or lie to make themselves look good?
Not sure.

34. Is your group encouraging of each other and free from gossip and rumoring?
Hah, you have to be kidding me.
My aunt who goes to an assembly in Australia has been labeled a “whore” and a “witch”. Apparently somebody told the pastor that she was trying to “bewitch him”. So now the entire church is told to never associate themselves with the “witch”. The church even sends some members to spy on my uncle and his family. And when something evil befalls them the church explains that it is because my aunt is a “witch”.
I have personally suffered from rumours spread about me in the church. This has been a daily experience for me for the past 12 years. So you have to be kidding me if you tell me that a church can be free from gossip and rumoring. I can say I have been traumatised because even my parents believed those rumours at one point in time.

35. Is there a humility of doctrine that points to the grace of God and His mercy for sinners?
Not sure about this question. The church has “deeper truths” which are not revealed to the other churches because our pastors have a “special anointing” from God.

36. Are you encouraged to serve in ministries or missions outside the local body?
Yes, as long as it does not conflict with the church.


So there you have all the red flags as far as I think. I am not sure if I have understood all the questions correctly because some of them are “too fuzzy”. Please let me know if my church is a cult.
 
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Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
4,728
58
48
#26
After all that advice, all I can say is I'm a pentecostal minister (local license) with the United Pentecostal Church International... and some of those things listed in the OP are definitely not a result of your church being a "pentecostal" church.

As for standards: Roh_Chris some of the standards you listed are valid, some are outmoded, some seem to be a result of the church being in your particular country... but some are rather odd, even to me. However, I am not even in your country, much less of your church, so I can't really say whether your church is "controlling" or merely setting standards based on what is needed for their region. What may seem ludicrous in one area may be necessary in another. So I have learned not to judge other churches even in other towns, much less in other countries. I have heard of churches disagreeing sharply with each other about certain standards, but the circumstances in their separate communities were very different.
Yes, I accept that culture plays a significant role in a church’s teachings. But some of the teachings are not cultural because they teach the same thing in the assemblies all over the world. For example, women members of my church throughout the world are not allowed to wear jewels or pants. Courting and dating is not allowed anywhere in the world. I am talking of assemblies in the US, UK, France, Germany, Switzerland, Australia, New Zealand, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. where it is still forbidden. I am not sure if you can understand my dilemma.

The only reason I could see for your church specifying not to go to a doctor for any reason, is if the medical profession is full of witch doctors. In some countries going to the "doctor" is basically going to the devil for help. But then I don't know much about the state of witchcraft in India.

I agree that Divine Healing exists. I know and I have experienced the healing. But I think that there must be a limit to it. If the disease persists despite your prayers then one must see a doctor. If it is a life-threatening disease then one must go to the hospital. Too many lives in my church have been lost because they “waited on God for healing” until their death. (That’s a can of worms, let’s not go there.)

Anyway, doctors in India are not witch doctors. Yes, there is witchcraft and it is widely practiced in India. But doctors in most parts of the country are purely medical by profession. The city I live is one of the top cities in India and I have access to world-class medical facilities.

In the case of worship, I would ask if you have read the whole Bible. And if you have, does your church match what the Bible says? I live in what we call the Bible Belt, there are many churches around here, and I've seen churches that worship God only in the spirit - with a lot of noise and excitement - and churches that worship God only in the truth - rules and doctrine - but the churches where I feel God's presence are those that know the Bible, know what they believe, and know God's joy and peace.
You are confusing me all the more. The church gives Biblical references to each teaching. Nothing is based out of the Bible. And even if there is anything that seems to be out of the Bible, we are told to obey the leaders of the church. I am asking these questions because I am in a dilemma. A part of me has read these verses and found them to be true to what the church teaches. Another part of me wonders if it is really justified. So what do I do?

As for whether you should question the church, that is a bit more problematic to answer... what do you mean by "the church?" Your particular church? The organization of which it is technically a member? If there were something going on in my church that I thought was wrong I would certainly question it. But (and please forgive me if I assume too much here) your question seems to be more about what you should do about what you perceive to be wrong. If there were something going on in my church that I thought was wrong, what I would do about it would depend on many factors.
My question is whether what is taught in my church is right in accordance with what God’s message as through the Bible. My church has hundreds of assemblies all over the world. One particular third-party website estimates us to have over 20 million members worldwide in over 65 countries. The teachings are the same throughout all the assemblies.

And if the church’s teachings are wrong, what can I do about it given my background?


******************************

Chris, first of all thank you for taking the time to type all of that out and let us in on your struggle. Life does get a lot more difficult when you grow up never being assured of your parents' love for you and experiencing the love of a family. I have to say that I am actually really impressed by the way you have handled everything so far with all of the pressure, stress, and legalistic oppression you've faced. I'm sorry you're dealing with so much hard stuff right now, and I do hope that in time you will have a season of peace where you don't need to worry about a lot of this as often.

I wanted to address your questions, and hopefully my answers will be at least somewhat helpful.
No ChandlerFan, thank you for taking the time to read my post. Thank you for being nice and supportive with your advice. Thank you for not brushing this off as an attempt to criticize the church or anything else. Thank you for all the words you put in your post. Thank you because your post really touched me. Thank you! (I would have cried reading your reply if I was not in office.)



This is kind of a big question that would take a thread in itself to answer, but your views on this are right. The way your church does worship again sounds very cultic and not at all godly. Really at a basic level, worship is a response to what God has done for you, so worship should flow out of the heart. So for me, I am most ready to worship when I fully grasp and realize the gravity of what God has done for me in saving me from my sin by dying for me. When I realize just how much grace God shows me, I just want to worship Him however I can. Having someone yell at you to worship God and forming a holy mosh pit does not in any way result in authentic worship. For a pastor to say that true worship and true Christian requires sweating is as stupid and unbiblical as it sounds. Worship is all about the heart.
Thank you ChandlerFan. I have had only limited experience of a true form of worship and that was when I visited Sydney. I enjoyed the worship in the assembly there (same church only). I literally cried during the last Sunday because my soul felt like it was going back to the desert. You don’t know how much I long to be part of a worship where it is just about God, where it is just about losing oneself in God’s presence and being overwhelmed with His love. I long for that kind of a worship. I listen to a lot of worship songs to try and re-create that feel but it can never be the same as a congregation. I wish I can be part of such a worship. I really wish I can find the pasture that my soul really needs.

These questions have been within me for so many years. And whenever I ask a question to the pastor or other elders in my church, I always hear the same replies over and over again. This is the first time I have asked these questions on a third-party forum and I am really overwhelmed by the replies. I feel like there is some hope somewhere for me. And that I do not have to carry this turmoil forever.




The way you know whether or not a church's teachings are right is the weigh them against the Bible. I know that your church gives reasons from certain passages of Scripture for some of the things that it says and does, but you have to read each verse or passage of Scripture in light of the whole thing, and your church's practices and teachings do not reflect what the Bible as a whole teaches.
With that said, it is completely okay and even healthy to question your church's teachings and the teachings of the Bible. I have had questions about the Bible before, and what's great about it is it drives you to study things further, and you actually end up learning a lot and growing in your faith. I wouldn't encourage doubting for doubting's sake, but when you have real questions arising in your heart, it is completely okay to own those questions and to seek out the truth. God gave us minds for a reason, after all :) Blindly accepting something as truth is going to weaken the foundations of your faith.
I usually read everything the church says and verifies it with the passage in the Scripture. But since the pastors are supposed to have a “special anointing” (as Cinder’s link put it), is it possible that there is something that God has revealed to them which He has not revealed to me? Furthermore, even if it is wrong, am I not expected to suffer for it? Maybe my reward in Heaven will be greater?


I don’t know where to start and where to think. To be honest, I feel like all that I have believed to be true (from the church) are crumbling right now. And I am completely confused and broken. I didn’t expect to be in such a horrible position after reading all the replies. It seems that I am right in asking these questions. But am I missing a point? Am I overlooking a significant factor (e.g. the pastor’s “special anointing”)? I don’t know! I am confused!


Well, like I said before, I hope that you would not only not be active there, but would break away if you can. I know that's hard, though.
I do believe that families should be actively involved in a church, but not to the detriment of the family's relationships with each other. The church is meant to be a place of community, encouragement, and growth, but not a place that consumes your entire life so that other responsibilities (like being a good parent) are left at the wayside. You said earlier that parenting was the second most important responsibility behind being active in the church, but being good parents to your children is actually the more important responsibility. That may be a bit surprising to read, but it's true. If you had the choice to be a better church-goer or a better parent, you should choose to be a better parent every time, and I'm sorry that wasn't the case for your parents.



I hope that some of what I said helps you out, Chris. Hopefully I did not come across to harshly. I just wanted to be honest with you.
Thanks again for letting us in on this struggle you're going through so that we can be praying for you and encouraging you. If you ever want to talk more or ask more questions, you can always feel free to PM me and I will try to help you out as best as I can. I hope you are able to get away from this church and find a more Christ-centered, freedom-laden community to worship God in. Hang in there :) This will all pass someday.
Not at all, ChandlerFan! On the other hand, your reply felt like the final blow a wrecking ball on all that I have believed in. I really don’t know what to do. I am still holding on to the hope that maybe I overlooked some factor and I am wrong and what the church is teaching was right.


******************************

This situation has been heavy on my heart. I prayed for the Lord to bring someone wise and godly along to address these difficult questions in a careful way. I cried when I read your response ChandlerFan. It's such a powerful thing for God to use one person to speak into the heart of another.

Roh_Chris, it's obvious to me that the Lord is working hard in your life right now. He is present and moving in this situation. He's taking you on a journey that will be difficult and a bit scary. But he hasn't left you to go through it alone.


Advice taken, Grace. Thank you for praying for me and thank you for asking God to bring someone along to address these difficult questions in a careful way. Going from the advice of many wonderful folks here (I cannot thank them enough), it seems that I am not being deceived by the devil in doubting the church. I am still the “cat on the wall”, but maybe there is a teeny-weeny possibility that it was God who put these questions in my heart.

******************************

Chris! :(

I remember when you first joined cc, and briefly mentioned that you didn't feel loved at your church. I recommended trying out a different church, and I thought that you would be able to tell if you were in the right place... because it would feel right, and peaceful, and you would see evidence of the fruits of the Spirit. I didn't realize what repercussions simply trying out a new church might have for you, and I'm sorry if I gave my opinion too hastily or unfairly.

That’s okay Pop. I did not want to disclose too much at the beginning because I was not sure whether doing it would help me or not. It was only after I got to know a lot of people here and I saw the support that people gave to the ones who needed it, I decided to open up. Thank you to each one of you!

My situation is really messy Pop. I don’t even like being told to do anything anymore because they were harsh with me. And it is not the “godly” way of harsh. I can go on and on and on about so many instances when I have been badly disturbed by how the pastor (or the elders) took wrong decision without considering the circumstances. I really think I may need some counseling but I don’t want to go. Firstly I think because today everybody thinks I am a very nice guy to ‘hang around with’. Secondly I don’t know if it will help me in my faith. What if the counselor leads me astray and I lose my walk with God?

I want to pour out so many things here but I am not going to do it because I don’t want to freak out anybody. But I am literally breaking apart that I cannot even control my flow of thoughts. I have spent half a day in office and I have been unable to do any work. It’s just a massive blow and I am still reeling from it. Anyway, I am going to share some more from my personal life here and I don’t care what the ‘naysayers’ think.

I used to be a very good sportsman in school. I was a long jumper and a runner. Plus, I loved football, volleyball and kho-kho. My maternal grandpa wanted to send me for tennis coaching. Eventually nothing happened, partially because they were under a dilemma whether sports is permitted for a child of God. (I think there were other reasons too). So from my 5[SUP]th[/SUP] grade (I was 11 years old then) until the 9[SUP]th[/SUP] grade I did not go for any training. All my sports instructors kept calling me again and again to join the school athletics team because they identified my potential. By the 11[SUP]th[/SUP] grade (17 years old), I went for sports by lying to my parents. I did this for two years.

I play the guitar and I am a musician. Apart from some formal training which my parents arranged for me, I was not allowed to be part of any bands. My church has a dull-and-drab worship service where there is hardly any music. So the only bands I could join were outside the church and most of them were secular. So four years ago I started secretly playing music professionally again. I still do it secretly because the music is secular (and that is forbidden by the church). And by secular, I mean the “feel good” kind of music that is just nice to enjoy.


My church has a teaching that we must give tithes of our time to God. So they preach that we must devote 2 ½ hours everyday for God. Now that’s a good thing to do. But it’s bad when you try to ‘enforce’ it. As a child I remember being told to match that standard. I was advised pray for 30 minutes three times a day, read the Bible for half an hour and then attend the morning & evening family prayers which last for 30 minutes each. Altogether it would add up to 2 ½ hours. Well, guess what? I tried it for a few times on and off. Eventually I hated praying, I hated Bible reading and I hated family prayers. I just hated everything to do with God. Today, I am on the path of recovery. Two years ago I started the “roll over prayer” and only last week I started reading my Bible daily (after Shouryu’s comment of ‘Feed the soul, then feed the body’). I still avoid attending church meetings to the extent possible. I still avoid family prayers to the extent possible. I am in desperate need for my total healing and that is why I am asking these questions here.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,328
2,361
113
#27
1. Is your pastor fully accountable to a board of elders, presbyters, etc.?
Yes.
My pastor cannot move a finger without the permission from his elder (shall we call it as ‘boss’)? He cannot even visit his own flock without the permission from his ‘boss’. And all this is justified in the name of ‘leading of the church’.
My understanding is that the board of elders would be people within your own local congregation. As a for instance, if your pastor goes out to minister to the prostitutes in the area and ends up giving into temptation and using their services instead, who in the congregation has the right to confront him and remove him from his position if he refuses to repent?

2. Is loyalty to Jesus and to one’s own calling placed before loyalty to pastor and church?
Depends.
If your calling conflicts with the church’s interpretation of how one’s calling must be, then you are in trouble. It is because only the pastor of your church can tell you whether the calling is truly from God or not.
So in case of a conflict , you are expected to follow the church because you couldn't have heard Jesus right on your own. I would have to ask them why in 26 years in their church you still have so little discernment? (yes this is pretty classic cult right here)

3. Does your pastor encourage questions and suggestions? Is it approachable?
Depends on the questions.
Is there any discussion on the points you disagree on? Are you being listened to or just given the party line? I'm a firm believer that God isn't afraid of our questions, even the ones we feel like we should have settled long ago.

5. Does your pastor readily admit his errors?
Can my pastor make errors?
He is led by the Spirit of God so he cannot make any errors. (Not kidding!)
Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that pastors (or even prophets or God's anointed ones) are infallible. Samson was God's chosen and the spirit of God came on him, but he was sleeping around with different women and didn't live a Godly life. Saul was God's anointed too ( even "prophesied" see 1 Samuel 10:10), but he drastically screwed up. But the leader can do no wrong is a belief almost every cult founder has encouraged and pushed.

6. Does your pastor avoid boasting or hinting at a “special anointing”?
No.
he is a pastor because he has a “special anointing” from God to lead us. None of us have that, apparently.
While I believe there is a special spiritual dynamic to being a pastor, God gives pastors to the church to equip God's people to do ministry (see Ephesians 4- whole thing looks really good and talks about how all of us should become more mature and like Christ and not able to be deceived by lies). Making people dependent on you for guidance is in my mind the exact opposite of equipping people. Having a leader who is the only one who can hear from God for you is another mark of a cult.

7. Is your pastor truly humble?
What do you mean by humble? Yes, he leads a simple lifestyle. But he has a high spiritual standard. And he has a “special anointing”. So in which sense are you referring to as humble?
(Sorry, a lot of these terms have become ‘grey areas’ for me after my conflicts in the church.)
We could have a whole thread about what it means to be humble. But my best definition in this case would be is he aware of his limitations as a human being? Does he try to help people come to their own decisions instead of telling them what to think? Does he receive criticism and opposition well and take into account the valid points people raise?

8. Are the sermons based on clear Biblical truths, not on “original revelations” or ax-grinding?
Sometimes.
The reason why our church is “more special” than the other churches is because we have these “deeper truths”.
Exclusivity and deeper truths are signs of a cult. Especially if these deeper truths are made more important than scripture.

9. Does your church interact with other churches?
NO! NO! NO!
Yep cult warning again. Exactly why do they think that another church reading and teaching the Bible will lead you away from the Bible? There are different interpretations on parts of scripture, but there are ancient creeds and statements of faith out there to help you determine whether a church holds to the essentials of the faith or not.

10. Does your church staff avoid secrecy?
Not clear on this question.
Do you think that when they talk about things that have happened or are happening the church that you are getting a full and accurate story? When someone leaves or is kicked out are the specific reasons for them having to leave talked about or is it just "they wouldn't submit to authority"?

Sadly I can probably explain this best by talking about some of the negative stuff that has happened in my church over the past few years. Pastoral couple and elders went on a leadership retreat. I don't know exactly all that happened, but the result was that the pastor decided to leave. Leaders gave the appearance of being open, but didn't want to discuss many details because it was too much like gossip or dirty laundry. Well my old pastor from a few towns over became the new pastor of that church and I moved overseas. When I came back to visit about 15 months later, the church was down to about 25% of its former membership. Pastor was good about talking to me and summarizing what had gone on: One of the couples who was in leadership had been having marriage problems but the wife didn't want anyone to know. She started developing an inappropriate emotional relationship with another man in the church leadership. Pastor took a stand instead of refusing to stand up to the issues in leadership (which according to him is at least part of the reason the last several pastors had left). In light of what has happened I really have to wonder whether the reserve shown in the name of not airing dirty laundry was a spiritual thing or a pride thing? Hope that story helps.

11. Is power shared in your church (rather than preempted by a hierarchy)?
No.
Everything comes down from the “powers above”. We are the sheep and they are the sheperds.
While I know India has a more hierarchical power structure and I think people are used to feeling like they have little influence on the decisions that leaders make than in the West this answer still bothers me. Ultimately from your perspective though, this is putting a whole lot of trust in someone else to always hear from God correctly and have the wisdom to know what to do. Are the leaders worthy of such trust? Based on what evidence?

12. Does your church see itself as just one organ of the Body of Christ, and not the main one?
A lot of the members believe that we are the only ones who have the spiritual standard to be raptured when Christ comes.
Ok mixed metaphors aside. Your church believes they are the only ones who are true believers and all the other Christians everywhere in the world are headed to hell? Classic cult thinking.

13. Is your church truly friendly?
Not clear on this question.
If a stranger walks into your church looking for God, will they feel welcome? Will someone make the effort to help them find the restrooms, children's classes, etc? Will they come away with the impression that the people there really cared about them and wanted to get to know them? Will they be eager to come back and be among people like that?

14. Does your church emphasize ministry to people rather than church programs?
Not clear on this question.
Is the informal ministry (listening to a hurting friend, helping someone move house, etc.) a person does, valued as much as spending time in church functions and ministries? Is a person's spiritual walk evaluated by more than just how much time they spend doing things the church has organized or planned for them to do?

15. Are especially needy people cared for lovingly in your church?
If they are members of the church who are in the “good books” of the church, then yes.
This is a tricky one, but I don't like the have to be in the "good books" before the church will help. Sounds a lot like another control tactic.

16. Are church members encouraged and loved even when they leave?
If we are leaving the church, then we are counted as “backsliders”. And other church members are forbidden from having any fellowship with such backsliders.
- No invitations for marriages or other celebrations.
- Don’t even entertain them at your home for a dinner.
Addendum to story about my home church above. I was close to the female leader who messed up. She had left the church by the time I came home, but the Pastor he told me where I could find her and had no problem with me connecting with her. That's what it should look like when someone leaves the church. A desire for their restoration and spiritual health and no grudges held towards a person who has been overcome by sin.

17. Are relationships with former members encouraged or allowed?
No. (Read my response to 16 above).
Again, this is very cult like.

18. Do the pastor and congregation avoid attacking and using as object lessons, former members or those who disagree?
No.
They are examples to the church of God’s punishment for the “backsliders”. (Example – look what happened to Korah & Company).
There's nothing Biblical or Godly about gloating over a former member's problems and calling it a justified punishment from God. As for Korah, Moses and Aaron were quick to intercede for the people and ask God to spare them. Shouldn't your leaders be acting like Moses and Aaron then? (Numbers 16 if you want to read the story for yourself)

19. Are families encouraged to stay together and spend time together?
Not sure how this is done in other churches. Our church encourages family prayer but not much of family time.
For example, there are married men and women who work 24x7 in church without going to their families.
Family is a choice and should never be sacrificed for ministry. Period. To quote Richard Foster: "One of the greatest tragedies of our day is the number of Christian leaders who have given themselves unselfishly to the cause of Christ, but have destroyed their marriages and their children in the process. And it was all so unnecessary. Many of them simply needed to understand that their sense of call was incompatible with the responsibilities of marriage and to choose the single life"

21. Are you encouraged in your own calling?
(As in point 2), it depends. If it conflicts with the “leading” of the pastor, then it will not be encouraged.
Didn’t Samuel tell Saul “obedience is better than sacrifice”? If your pastor does not let you do it, then obey. God will honour your decision to abide by his leading.
There's a vast difference between a pastor saying, "No, you can't do that, you heard God wrong." and a pastor who tries to help you think through the challenges and view the calling you may be overly enthusiastic about in a more holistic and practical light (even when that feels discouraging). But again, this level of control by the pastor is a pretty classic trait of a cult.


23. Are your children happy to attend church?
When I was a child, I was not happy. Many children who have questions like me do not like to come to church.

24. Are you happy to bring unsaved friends to your church?
No. I brought one and I figured it was not a good idea.
If it's not a good idea to bring people there, why would you continue going yourself?

26. Are people encouraged to hear from God for themselves?
Yes, but they are also expected to “consult” the pastor and get his guidance. If the pastor’s guidance is contrary to what God told you, then you are expected to obey him.
This is doublespeak. In effect you are supposed to trust the pastor to hear from God for you since if there is a difference of opinion about what God said you are supposed to believe automatically that your pastor has it right. Again it is very controlling and control is the hallmark of a cult.

27. Is there a single behavior standard for all people in the church?
Yes.
Like a “church code”.

29. Is the joy of the Lord present in your church?
Not clear on this question.
Do the people seem generally joyful and free in church? Does going to church nourish a faith that believes no matter what my current circumstances God loves me and he is in control and he is good? Do people comment about how they came in down or oppressed but now after church they are doing much better?

30. Are you free from fear in your church?
No.

31. Do you think about God and Jesus than you do about your pastor and your church?
I am torn between what I know God from the Bible and what the church tells me He is. So I cannot answer this question.
If the Bible and what your church teaches conflict, which image of God will you embrace and follow? If your church tells you God is other than the bible says he is, what does that say about how well your church knows God?

32. Does your pastor include himself in any calls for repentance and forgiveness?
Not clear on this question.
Have you ever heard your pastor admit to any sin or struggle in his life or repent of anything? When the pastor addresses issues in the church does he make it sound like it is an issue he struggles with too, or only those of you who aren't as holy as he is would struggle with this?


33. Are you clear that the pastors and elders never exaggerate or lie to make themselves look good?
Not sure.

34. Is your group encouraging of each other and free from gossip and rumoring?
Hah, you have to be kidding me.
My aunt who goes to an assembly in Australia has been labeled a “whore” and a “witch”. Apparently somebody told the pastor that she was trying to “bewitch him”. So now the entire church is told to never associate themselves with the “witch”. The church even sends some members to spy on my uncle and his family. And when something evil befalls them the church explains that it is because my aunt is a “witch”.
I have personally suffered from rumours spread about me in the church. This has been a daily experience for me for the past 12 years. So you have to be kidding me if you tell me that a church can be free from gossip and rumoring. I can say I have been traumatised because even my parents believed those rumours at one point in time.

35. Is there a humility of doctrine that points to the grace of God and His mercy for sinners?
Not sure about this question. The church has “deeper truths” which are not revealed to the other churches because our pastors have a “special anointing” from God.
Grace and mercy. i.e. even though you sometimes give into temptation, you aren't thrown out and irredeemable and God will still do you good even though you don't deserve it. That God is for you and wants you to be his and will do everything in his power to keep you close and make you holy.

36. Are you encouraged to serve in ministries or missions outside the local body?
Yes, as long as it does not conflict with the church.
But being you aren't allowed to have anything to do with other believers I bet all of these missions are still organized by your church, yes?



So there you have all the red flags as far as I think. I am not sure if I have understood all the questions correctly because some of them are “too fuzzy”. Please let me know if my church is a cult.
You haven't clarified what kind of pentecostal you are but Oneness (Jesus Only) Pentecostals are a recognized cult.

But seriously, you hate going there. You have been traumatized . You are under a load of fear and shame, and what would seem to most people as an excessive level of control. You sound like you don't even have the freedom to ask the questions you need to and they say don't talk to anyone else or we'll kick you out.

Everything in me would urge you to get out and get out fast, but I understand that it will be difficult with the whole honor your parents thing as they are still part of it. There's not going to be an easy and painless way to get out or to stay in that environment. Pain seems inevitable but you do have our prayers and support as you journey on this road.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,328
2,361
113
#28
Video clip that this discussion reminds me of. Martin Luther at his famous trial in Worms (the quote I really wanted starts at 2:20)
[video=youtube_share;9IkqniF8AA8]http://youtu.be/9IkqniF8AA8?t=2m20s[/video]
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#29
My understanding is that the board of elders would be people within your own local congregation. As a for instance, if your pastor goes out to minister to the prostitutes in the area and ends up giving into temptation and using their services instead, who in the congregation has the right to confront him and remove him from his position if he refuses to repent?
No, the only people who can confront an erring pastor are the superiors. But we can report him to his superiors. If they are convinced that he was indeed wrong, then they would remove him. As a congregation, we cannot confront and remove a pastor. We can only report him, that too only if it is a serious matter. Like sexual misconduct, sexual harassment, theft, etc.


Is there any discussion on the points you disagree on? Are you being listened to or just given the party line? I'm a firm believer that God isn't afraid of our questions, even the ones we feel like we should have settled long ago.
They do listen to the questions. But the answers are always along the same lines.


While I believe there is a special spiritual dynamic to being a pastor, God gives pastors to the church to equip God's people to do ministry (see Ephesians 4- whole thing looks really good and talks about how all of us should become more mature and like Christ and not able to be deceived by lies). Making people dependent on you for guidance is in my mind the exact opposite of equipping people. Having a leader who is the only one who can hear from God for you is another mark of a cult.
My church practices celibacy, which means that to be a pastor, they have to be unmarried first and foremost. The whole process for being a pastor is strict and not open to everybody. Firstly, you will have to renounce your family and your possessions and join the church (more like a monk). You have to undergo a two-year training program at the training centre and after that you get deputed at any assembly. With experience and good conduct, you grow up to become an elder when you may be given charge of an assembly. After at least 20 years of ministry from your date of ordainment you get ordained to be a pastor (subject to your good conduct).

Since the kind of consecration that the church requires of church elders/pastors is huge, we are taught that they are “more closer” to God than us. Their words are binding and even if they may be wrong, God will honour their words for the sheer “special anointing” that they possess. And we ought to be humble enough to accept their words because God honours obedience.


We could have a whole thread about what it means to be humble. But my best definition in this case would be is he aware of his limitations as a human being? Does he try to help people come to their own decisions instead of telling them what to think? Does he receive criticism and opposition well and take into account the valid points people raise?
I am not sure if I am answering your question clearly, but here is what I think is going on. He is not aware of his limitation because with the Spirit of God with him and the “special anointing” on him, they can command knowledge over any subject they chose to say/do. None of the pastors have any theological background. Their only training happens in the church and then after that they are told to lead an assembly.

Furthermore, education is not even a pre-requisite to be a pastor. As long as you can read/write in your native tongue, that is enough. The church teaches that once the “special anointing” is upon the pastor, it is God who is speaking through him. And a person chosen by God does not need educational backgrounds or theological qualifications to lead His flock. And whatever advice they give could work out good/bad for a person. There have been numerous occasions when their decisions which seemed foolish/wrong at first later turned out to be good. Even I have personally experienced the blessing in implicitly obeying their words.

So all this adds to the dilemma of whether I am right in questioning the church.


Exclusivity and deeper truths are signs of a cult. Especially if these deeper truths are made more important than scripture.
These deeper truths are to prepare us to be the Bride of Christ. And as a church we are told to follow the revelations given by the pastors without questioning them because they are spiritually deep. And all that proceeds from their mouth will be honoured by God whether it is right or wrong.


Do you think that when they talk about things that have happened or are happening the church that you are getting a full and accurate story? When someone leaves or is kicked out are the specific reasons for them having to leave talked about or is it just "they wouldn't submit to authority"?
There will not be any official reports about such a decision. Like the pastor won’t disclose why a certain member has left or is kicked out. You can hear it “from the grapevine” or if you are really buddies with the pastor, he may tell you. But there is no official report as such. It is usually something like “it is the leadership decision taken by the pastor after much prayer and deliberation”.


While I know India has a more hierarchical power structure and I think people are used to feeling like they have little influence on the decisions that leaders make than in the West this answer still bothers me. Ultimately from your perspective though, this is putting a whole lot of trust in someone else to always hear from God correctly and have the wisdom to know what to do. Are the leaders worthy of such trust? Based on what evidence?
Though this is a cultural problem in India, the same practice is followed all over the world even in our assemblies in the US, Canada and other countries. I can’t say the leaders are completely unworthy of our trust considering that sometimes their decisions have worked out to be right. People have been blessed by the decisions they took because that was the will of God concerning the particular person’s life. Some other times their decisions have ended in disasters.


Ok mixed metaphors aside. Your church believes they are the only ones who are true believers and all the other Christians everywhere in the world are headed to hell? Classic cult thinking.
Not hell. Maybe a “lower” part of heaven. We have the “deeper truths” to take us to the highest places in heaven. And our pastors will inhabit the highest place in heaven because of their consecration and their close communion with God. This is another reason why nobody dares to speak out against the church because we don’t want to be opposing the servants of the Most High God.


If a stranger walks into your church looking for God, will they feel welcome? Will someone make the effort to help them find the restrooms, children's classes, etc? Will they come away with the impression that the people there really cared about them and wanted to get to know them? Will they be eager to come back and be among people like that?
Yes. But it depends on the mentality of the stranger. If he is looking for a church that can intellectually challenge him, then he is in for a shock. If he wants an emotional church where he can blindly follow the crowd, then he will be mighty pleased here.


Is the informal ministry (listening to a hurting friend, helping someone move house, etc.) a person does, valued as much as spending time in church functions and ministries? Is a person's spiritual walk evaluated by more than just how much time they spend doing things the church has organized or planned for them to do?
Yeah. We are encouraged to serve the community. But it does not happen much because there is a lot of politics, factionalism and infighting.


This is a tricky one, but I don't like the have to be in the "good books" before the church will help. Sounds a lot like another control tactic.
The church may totally turn a blind eye to a member who is seriously ill if they are not happy with him. And many times their judgments are based on hear-say and rumours that they hear from other members of the church.


There's nothing Biblical or Godly about gloating over a former member's problems and calling it a justified punishment from God. As for Korah, Moses and Aaron were quick to intercede for the people and ask God to spare them. Shouldn't your leaders be acting like Moses and Aaron then? (Numbers 16 if you want to read the story for yourself)
Like I said earlier, we cannot oppose them because they are to our church what Moses was to the Israelites. We are told that God will not tolerate any rebellion or defiance. But the pastors usually intercede for God to forgive the erring members.


Family is a choice and should never be sacrificed for ministry. Period. To quote Richard Foster: "One of the greatest tragedies of our day is the number of Christian leaders who have given themselves unselfishly to the cause of Christ, but have destroyed their marriages and their children in the process. And it was all so unnecessary. Many of them simply needed to understand that their sense of call was incompatible with the responsibilities of marriage and to choose the single life"
My church practices celibacy. So pastors are unmarried with strictly limited contact with the opposite gender. So yes, we comply with what you quoted about Richard Foster. But the members who assist the pastors can either be married or unmarried.


If it's not a good idea to bring people there, why would you continue going yourself?
That is because my family was blessed by it. My dad and mom were saved in their early days. At the time of their salvation, their parents were doing very badly. But after they were saved and they came to this church, God started blessing them. My parents would never even dream of leaving the church because they have been so blessed by it. Even I have experienced many blessings in the church. But it has not been all hunky-dory for me.

So I don’t even know whether this is just a test of my faith or God wants me to leave. Yes, so many of you have told me that my church is not on the right track. But I think I am not ready to take a decision yet. I am still unsure whether my decision is right.


Do the people seem generally joyful and free in church? Does going to church nourish a faith that believes no matter what my current circumstances God loves me and he is in control and he is good? Do people comment about how they came in down or oppressed but now after church they are doing much better?
Those who don’t have these questions are happy going to church. Every week we hear of so many miracles that the Lord has done in the church. People testify how the Lord healed them of fever, body pain, stomach pain, etc. because the pastor prayed for them (mind you, nobody takes a medicine). The Lord speaks to us through prophecies. The gifts of the Spirit are working mighty fine in the church. There are “deeper truths” revealed in every sermon.

But the love and fellowship is not very evident in the church. As long as you are in the “good books” of the pastor you get treated well. You experience the warmth and the love of the church community. If you ask questions like what I am doing right now, then you will be judged by the church for it.


If the Bible and what your church teaches conflict, which image of God will you embrace and follow? If your church tells you God is other than the bible says he is, what does that say about how well your church knows God?
But the church is teaching about God from the Bible. It is just that every verse is like two sides of a coin. I interpret it from one side and the church interprets it from the other side. Isn’t that a plausible explanation?


Have you ever heard your pastor admit to any sin or struggle in his life or repent of anything? When the pastor addresses issues in the church does he make it sound like it is an issue he struggles with too, or only those of you who aren't as holy as he is would struggle with this?
Generally they don’t. They sometimes share that they face certain problems but those are the usual ones (like sickness, anger, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc.) and not something more personal. Is this what you meant?


But being you aren't allowed to have anything to do with other believers I bet all of these missions are still organized by your church, yes?
Yes. Oui. Ja. Sí.
The only exception is Gideons International, but even this is not “officially” supported by the church. Some church members are part of this network secretly.


You haven't clarified what kind of pentecostal you are but Oneness (Jesus Only) Pentecostals are a recognized cult.
Sorry, I missed that. But we believe in the Trinity. The church baptizes by immersion baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. We believe in the anointing of the Holy Spirit through the sign of speaking in tongues.


But seriously, you hate going there. You have been traumatized . You are under a load of fear and shame, and what would seem to most people as an excessive level of control. You sound like you don't even have the freedom to ask the questions you need to and they say don't talk to anyone else or we'll kick you out.

Everything in me would urge you to get out and get out fast, but I understand that it will be difficult with the whole honor your parents thing as they are still part of it. There's not going to be an easy and painless way to get out or to stay in that environment. Pain seems inevitable but you do have our prayers and support as you journey on this road.
All that you said about me is true. I avoid church to the extent possible. I am not even sure I will be active in any church ever again because I think I have been scarred for ever. But I hope that God has a healing in store for me. And I am yearning for that healing touch from God.

Did I answer all your questions? Once again, thank you so much for taking the time to write me a long reply. It is really edifying to read your comments. God bless you for your patience. :)
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#30
...my spirit grieves for you, Brother; I need to pray for the Lord's mind to guide us.
Thank you for your kind words of advice and for your prayers, Sister BananaPie. :)


Hi Roh_Chris
We are the temple
The church serves Christ
not the church serves the church.
Therefore YOU serve Christ not the church.

In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Therefore, if our parents will not follow Jesus, or even if they disown us for being Christians, we must still choose Christ over them. It is in this sense that we are "hating" our family members who reject the Lord or reject us because of the Lord.

Likely because it would actually be them thinking we hate them for not choosing our own flesh and blood over the guiding of the Holy Spirit.
So in a way it's like Jesus is saying, "yeah, let 'em think you hate them, You serve me and you show it"

This seems to line up with my perspective that if anyone requires you do something unbiblical or outside of the conviction Christ puts in your heart....follow your Shepherd over people.
Thank you, MidnightWelder. I am asking all these questions because I want to clearly understand whether my church is right or wrong. I am searching for the truth and the truth only. If the majority of you agree with the teachings of my church, then I will gladly submit myself to the church. But so far that doesn't seem to be the case... :(


I have much to say. But no time or strength with which to say it at this moment.

I've a holiday this weekend, I shall endeavour to devote a few hours to respond to you Biblically, my friend.
Please do, Brother. I would like to hear your opinion as well. It would be nice if you could read my replies to others' posts because it may give you a clearer picture. :)


One thing about communion- it is the body and blood of Christ, who are they to deny someone to partake in the sacred spiritual mysteries of communion? It is not only the table of the church, but of Christ. No man has authority over Christ. It is his will that whoever may want to meet him, will meet him there.
My church would not give communion to an outsider. Even if you belong to another assembly of the same church, you need the permission of the pastor of the assembly which is giving the communion. And usually, that pastor will ask a report about you from the pastor of your assembly. Until today I used to think that this is the only way a communion must be organized. But now I am not sure anymore ....
 
A

arwen-undomiel

Guest
#31
My church would not give communion to an outsider. Even if you belong to another assembly of the same church, you need the permission of the pastor of the assembly which is giving the communion. And usually, that pastor will ask a report about you from the pastor of your assembly. Until today I used to think that this is the only way a communion must be organized. But now I am not sure anymore ....
Different churches have their own stance on this. Some won't allow unless you belong to that specific congregation, some it only matters if you belong to the same denomination and of course you must be baptized first. The church I attend takes the stance as I described above. It's open to all. It makes the most sense to me.
 
J

Jullianna

Guest
#32
I needed some time to mull this over before posting. It's too important to type some random, canned answer.

The bottom line for me is that we are to serve the LORD and follow CHRIST, not a denomination, the tenants of man, or even our parents...however well meaning they may be...they can still be wrong.

I grew up in a denomination that I did not fully agree with and eventually left. If we do or don't do something because the Holy Spirit guides us/quickens our spirit to see it, that's one thing, but some denominations are simply abusive. That's not the freedom in Christ I've seen in scripture.

One thing is certain: We are to worship in spirit and in truth. We worship as the Spirit leads us. It's personal, not the way other people DEMAND us to do. It's intimate. It can vary from person to person, but as long as it is from the heart, who can say what we should or shouldn't do?

David danced and sang when he worshipped. It's not everyone's thing, but look what happened to the wife who criticized him for doing so? I'm more of a quiet worshipper, but I love to see other people rejoicing in their love for the Lord in a PERSONAL, from the heart way.

Worship should never be mocked or staged/demanded by others. That's strange fire. Pure worship is your heart communicating with the Lord's...sharing your love with Him. He is not a pillar of stone. He is THE living God. It is the Holy Spirit within us that lights the holy fire of worship. THAT is PURE fire. THAT is what He wants from us. He doesn't want any phony stuff anymore than we do from anyone. We need to remember what happened to the sons of Aaron and Cain for thinking any secondhand or scripted offering will do.

Attempting to serve and worship the way other people, rather than scripture and the Holy Spirit lead YOU, is clearly tearing you apart mentally and physically. That can't be God's will for your life, can it?

People who truly love the Lord, people who are led by the Spirit, people who truly love YOU should be able to understand that you need time and liberty to prayerfully study scripture and find whatever it is that God is leading you to. He is clearly leading you away from this mess you are in or you wouldn't be writing this.

You have people who genuinely care and want you to find healing, peace and growth in Christ here. Please feel free to use this place for that. We're here. We're praying. We're listening....even if we don't answer right away. :)
 
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Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#33
Attempting to serve and worship the way other people, rather than scripture and the Holy Spirit lead YOU, is clearly tearing you apart mentally and physically. That can't be God's will for your life, can it?

People who truly love the Lord, people who are led by the Spirit, people who truly love YOU should be able to understand that you need time and liberty to prayerfully study scripture and find whatever it is that God is leading you to. He is clearly leading you away from this mess you are in or you wouldn't be writing this.

You have people who genuinely care and want you to find healing, peace and growth in Christ here. Please feel free to use this place for that. We're here. We're praying. We're listening....even if we don't answer right away. :)

Thank you Jullianna. Please also pray that God leads me to where He wants me to go. It is hard to find a church that my soul can call 'home'.

I went to one church in December last year. This church was run like a company. They even had annual targets. If I remember correctly, their posters read 'Let us target 50,000 members next year.' Well, apart from the lively banners announcing their targets, the worship was dead to me.

There is an assembly of a prominent church, near my neighbourhood. But I have heard that in many of the rural places where this church has the majority of Christians, they have even opposed the creation of other churches. In some extreme cases, they have even resorted to violence. So I don't think I will ever step into that church.

Which leaves me with only one - Assemblies of God. I don't know if I should go there ...

I think it is safer for me to just go, attend a worship and not be an active member of any church. I don't think there is any 'good' church near where I live.
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#34
Thank you Jullianna. Please also pray that God leads me to where He wants me to go. It is hard to find a church that my soul can call 'home'.

I went to one church in December last year. This church was run like a company. They even had annual targets. If I remember correctly, their posters read 'Let us target 50,000 members next year.' Well, apart from the lively banners announcing their targets, the worship was dead to me.

There is an assembly of a prominent church, near my neighbourhood. But I have heard that in many of the rural places where this church has the majority of Christians, they have even opposed the creation of other churches. In some extreme cases, they have even resorted to violence. So I don't think I will ever step into that church.

Which leaves me with only one - Assemblies of God. I don't know if I should go there ...

I think it is safer for me to just go, attend a worship and not be an active member of any church. I don't think there is any 'good' church near where I live.
I wonder if you could find a small church... even a "home" church. These are the sorts of churches that might have a better chance of having real fellowship and authentic spiritual growth. Not always, but often. They are harder to find though, since they don't have large advertising budgets. Dig around though. There may be something near you that you never knew existed until now. :)
 
Aug 13, 2013
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#35
I have been looking for small faith community or a home church as well. Good luck. tell us if you find one. :)
 
B

biscuit

Guest
#36
roh_chris,

You were born to serve Jesus and not the church. It sound as though your church and many Christian churches around the world, are playing God and not serving God.

If you read Jesus' interpretations of the 7 churches, you will see that many of the problems Jesus complained about still exist in churches today. I can back this up with many scriptures in the Bible.

Your church is basically telling you that it is the "telephone line" to Jesus and it will shut you out from Jesus if you don't play its game. It is this type of practice that sparked a breakaway from major Catholic & Protestant churches.

Just remember, we Christians are priests in the eye of Jesus and the salt of the earth. While churches are a necessary component in the spreading of the gospel, it can also a major obstacle in establishing a personal belief with Jesus.

I serve Jesus Christ and not any church. You need to decide whom you wish to serve directly, Jesus or your church.

I hope I have helped.
 
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Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
4,728
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#37
I wonder if you could find a small church... even a "home" church. These are the sorts of churches that might have a better chance of having real fellowship and authentic spiritual growth. Not always, but often. They are harder to find though, since they don't have large advertising budgets. Dig around though. There may be something near you that you never knew existed until now. :)
I will. My assembly has at least a 1,000 members for the Sunday worship. Also the problem is with the language. I am more comfortable in English, but there are not many genuinely English churches in India. I will try hard to find a small little church that I can call my soul's home. :)


I have been looking for small faith community or a home church as well. Good luck. tell us if you find one. :)
It may be a good idea to get in touch with people who hail from your area. You could get in touch with regulars like Ugly or Shouryu to find out CC members from your area.


roh_chris,

I serve Jesus Christ and not any church. You need to decide whom you wish to serve directly, Jesus or your church.

I hope I have helped.
Thank you Biscuit. Yes, this helped me. :)
 
C

Charcoal

Guest
#38
"Bear" in mind that I am writing this without reading Any of the other responses.
Roh_Chris, it is a pleasure and an honor to be in community with you. The internet has been used as a tool of the devil time and again, but it is through fellowships like this that I feel confidant that the internet is God's tool, too.
I worry anytime I hear of a Christian that either is not going through spiritual struggles or cannot look back and speak of major spiritual struggles they have been brought through by God's hand. It either means that they are about to go through something (and need prayers) or that they are so far off God's path without knowing it that the devil doesn't need to bother them, he's got them in his bushel basket come the harvest. So it is with joy, yes joy, that I read your post, dear friend. Philippians 4:4-9

I know that in some countries, some regions, some cities, some churches...it is easier to get trapped in a silo. To have only one kind of thing and no other access to differing opinions, differing denominations, differing sources of teaching on The Way can leave you with a faith that needs to ask questions. I myself went through years of rebellion against Christ and his church as a result of life experiences. I believe that a faith tested is a faith made your own. It is my hope that my children Are tested, and that they hold true to the roots I now nurture for them in the church. If they end up in another sort of church someday, as long as they hold true to what I feel are the core salvation issues, I will not care overly much what name is on the door. I am complimented to be, as a member of this CC community, part of your questioning process. I am not a great Biblical scholar, and do not wish to present myself as such. I may try to quote scripture along the way. If anyone feels I am misquoting scripture or questions something that I say unsupported, please PM me about it first, and let us see if we can work out that difference. It is the Matthew 18 way, and should be applied to something as serious as me attempting to advise another in his time of significant faith questions.

I hope that you count some us us hear as Family, Brother Bear. In my five years of being ministered to and ministering to others at the Christ-centered 12-step program I attend, I have come to learn that family is occasionally related to us by genetic blood relations, but more often is related to us by Christ's blood.
It does sound to me that you are saying that your family of origin, while still holding whatever level of love in your heart, is not necessarily a safe place for you, and that you are acknowledging need to grow from that experience while away from their influence. I hear you say that you have made forays into this, but that it is not something that has developed itself out. I encourage you to continue this process, and to find a place in your life where you can fellowship with others, with your mask(s) off...even if you must put them back on to go back out into the world...or to go home to your family. Having other believers in your life with whom you can be genuine will keep your walk with Christ well rooted. The blessing of honesty in a Christian community, even if it is just a subgroup of a church, like a Bible study group or a men's breakfast group or...whatever, is a blessing that is worth pursuing. The "sharpening of your iron" (Proverbs 27:17) in such a circle, the opportunity to be vulnerable about your faith and receive encouragement, the chance to Hug a Brother In Christ and pray together through a tough time...that plus Grace is what will get me to Heaven some day.
If you don't have that place, take the time...and the prayer...and if necessary, the years, to find that for yourself.

1. I have come to read that the Old Testament laws did not free the Jews, and that this was part of the necessity of Christ. I read the New Testament (NT) and hear in it the whole of law, replaced by Love, Grace, & Forgiveness. I do see in the NT that there are a select few direct commands - one of which seems to have been more emphasized is the directive to care for the widows and orphans...and I look at that with Modern eyes which defines these two classes as something other than just women whose husband died or children who lack two biological parents. I see orphans regularly who live with two parents who have abandoned their child to the world in pursuit of their own sinfulness. My definition of widows is similarly broad.
I do not see a NT example of that the church should rule over its members dictating their every breath, and I consider such legalism as a red flag that may indicate a misrepresentation of Christ's message. It seems to me that this church takes this past the extremes, and could breed a corruptive sense of unworthiness.
2. No, it is not right. We are to be spreading the good news, seeking to save the lost; not here to be the church of Galatia. It seems that this is preached so heavily that I might even fear dissenting without fleeing this church's reach, for I have seen some who claim the name of Christ but teach other than His message do things that are against His will and do so "in His name" (or so they thought).
3. I do not believe there is ONE right way to worship God.
Here locally, there is a collection of churches under one name that is known throughout the community to have "really rocking worship service" with lasers and fog machines and.... and people leave with a buzz, but it is sometimes less of a mountain top communing with God, and more that the echos of the amplifiers are ringing in there ears. And some later question openly if they were moved by The Spirit or if it was just all the subwoofers. I call it Worshiptainment.
America was founded to provide opportunity to Christian diversity. We are now, to a great extent, a pagan nation. I am skiddish about anything that claims to be of Christ, but that closely resembles local pagan traditions...examples are the Celtic Cross was developed to allow the Celts to still mark their graves with Thor's Hammer without it being pulled down by those that came claiming God's name, the regional saints adopted and festival-ized in Central & South America (+ others, I'm sure) that mimic the local pagan practaces which eased the transition from tribal to "christian" religion, and in America I see it today in the blurring of the lines between the secular and the sacred. I see value in reaching the lost with a language they understand, but not at the expense of the message.
As Jesus the Christ Himself said in John 4:24, we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. Worshiping because a man (or woman) commands it of you seems to be counter to this. Worshiping because you are consumed by a crowd doing so and are moved by the crowd mentality seems counter to this. Attempting to present before God any kind of worship that you do not feel in your heart to be giving Him His due seems to me to be counter to it. It's not a fake it till you make it kind of thing, it's bring God your heart, however it may be - imperfect, stained, troubled or joyfully clean - and sincerely give to God the best you can that day. Your offering of worship may be like the two mites (Luke 21) but if you pray like the tax collector (Luke 18) , that is to say earnestly and sincerely, your worship and your prayers are great indeed. Beyond that, who is to say that you need a harp, a drum, a guitar, a fog machine, or a solemn chapel with an a capella song service.
4,a) Yes. 1 John 4:1
4,b) The church should be a church first and a community second, but reaching out to the community around it. We are not to be a country club of exclusivity. We are to lift up one another and being others to Christ. We should attend to our own and to others. We should fellowship with one another to keep ourselves on the righteous path (Hebrews 3:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:11), but we should actively include those outside of the church in our lives so that we may not "hide it under a bushel" (Matthew 5:15)
4,c) Part of being a good Christian is being a good father or mother to your children.
You seem to be doing a good job of drawing your own conclusions, so I will not elaborate unnecessarily. If you want me to further elaborate on this or anything else, please ask me to do so.
5)I believe that God can heal anyone from anything. I accept that it is not always HIS plan to do so, even when the devout fervently ask it. I shy away from (ok, flee is the better word here) anyone holding a "Divine Healing Service" or who refutes modern medicine. I believe modern medicine (even psychiatric medicine... and this is coming from someone who does believe in demonic possession) is a gift from God. I also see that such services could result in faith crushing disappointments for some, driving them from the church, and that they could potentially result in a person seeing themself or being seen by others as more important than that person should be seen. I do not believe Christianity to be a hierarchical religion, but a flat structure with Christ our Savior, God the Father, and their Divine Comforting Spirit above us...and us equally trying to mature in the faith while attempting to spread the good news. I pray for the sick and the hurting, sometimes even with the laying on of hands. But I put it in God's hands to heal whom He chooses, and look (without condemnation) for how He is at work when He chooses to not heal.
6)I will say it this way: my church is an "Open Communion" fellowship. Anyone who wishes to partake may. It is our intention that communion should be for baptized believers, and that is what we teach. But as 1 Corinthians 11:27-29 indicates, each must must examine their own self. I have known of instances where one's sinfulness has become cause to dis-fellowship someone who once claimed to be a believer (as in the Matthew 18 model), but not without first attempting to follow the rest of that model for resolving conflict and doing so in a manner of Christian Love.
We do offer communion each Sunday morning, at both morning services, and it is offered again at the evening service for those who were unable to attend for whatever reason.
We seek to be a church open with Love to the individual, ready to condemn sin, but not in a way that drives anyone from the Lord.

Grace is Amazing. Remember that 'The New Testament is a Message of Reconciliation Not of Condemnation', and you will go far.
I hope that you find a place and a way to worship God, to be part of his church, and to be loved by Family...for by HIS blood we are family, Brother Bear.


Lastly, and separately, do not neglect your health in any way. If you are bleeding you would bandage the wound. If your heart is bleeding, let Christ heal you, too. If you feel you are suffering from a psychiatric condition, do not rush to self diagnosis too soon (some of what you wrote could point towards PTSD or similar instead), but do not neglect proper treatment either. All healing and all comfort comes from God. He may not always choose what we expect (like prayer healing illness one time, but the same illness healing only through medicine another time).

I love you, Brother.


I often think of this movie when posting to you.
 
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Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,915
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#39
You haven't clarified what kind of pentecostal you are but Oneness (Jesus Only) Pentecostals are a recognized cult.
Have a care there. That's like saying Baptist guys are required to grow beards, just because you know of one Primitive Baptist church where they do.


However... from what Roh_Chris has related, they do seem to be in fact more intent on controlling their congregation. I was hesitant to judge anything in my initial post in this thread because I'm not there and I just don't know, but there are so many things wrong with this picture I can't even begin to address them all. Like one fella said, there's more red flags here than a chinese parade.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#40
Serving the Lord is not about the size of the denomination you belong to but the depths of your heart. I believe that the various rules and practices of your church will hinder your spiritual development in your personal relationship with the Lord and robs the joy out life. In the bible it says that there are times that you must leave your family to serve God. Your family drags you down and you are lost in all of the chaos and confusion. My advice is to find a new church and to keep your life separate from your family until they can accept you for the spiritual man that you are in your service to God. My own personal policy is that I would rather be happy than right. You need your own personal policy too.