Some advice would be much appreciated here ...

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cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
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#41
Have a care there. That's like saying Baptist guys are required to grow beards, just because you know of one Primitive Baptist church where they do.
It's more like if you said you went to a Baptist church and I said you didn't say what kind of baptist but if they are affiliated with Westboro Baptist Church, they are bad news. I know there are some good Pentecostals out there (including our friendly neighborhood Lynx).

But to clarify what I mean by Oneness Pentecostals:

Oneness Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.marketfaith.org/the-hidden-cult-of-oneness-pentecostalism/

And now having read those articles (instead of just remembering that it was a group included in a book of cults I had as a teen). I will be willing to moderate my statement to they are a group that has recognized doctrinal error related to the trinity, but it looks like individual churches are autonomous enough in some branches that it would be unfair to label them all as cults with the associated taking over a person's life that implies.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,662
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#42
That would be a good analogy. And thank you for clarifying. =^.^=


I think the most important question asked in this whole thread was "Are the people at your church happy? Do they have God's joy?" I forget who asked it though. I've seen many churches that define themselves by how they are NOT like other churches, and most of the members of said churches are usually whipping out the measuring stick all the time. They don't seem to be very happy, they're always too busy measuring others to see if they measure up.

I like my church. I like to go to church because the people are usually fairly joyful. It's a nice change from the grumpy people I have to deal with at work. :cool:
 

Nick01

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2013
1,272
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#43
Hey Nick, thank you for your reply! I am glad that you chose to give me a detailed reply. :)

I accept that the culture is a significant factor in this part of the world. But the problem is that my church has let the culture influence the way its leaders interpret the Bible. The restrictions on single men talking to single women, the dress code for church, the dress code for women, etc. are more 'man-interpreted'. So another question is, to what extent can culture affect a church?
If you mean 'can' as a pragmatic 'what is physically possible', then a lot. The church should always, to some extent, adjust to deal without outside cultures. Why did the early church often meet before dawn, or meet on certain days? Because so many people were slaves, and there was no other way to meet without people getting in trouble with their masters.

In terms of 'can' as a biblical form, I would say that any amount of influence is permissible as long as it does not:

a) compromise the truth of the gospel
b) compromise on loving God
c) compromise on loving your neighbour

I would say that some of the things I have heard you say would sound like cultural influences are excessive in your church.


Thank you for asking about my motive, Brother.

My questions are triggered by my search for the truth and my desire for an 'inner' healing. Even if the church is wrong, I do not intend to start a rebellion against the church because I do not want to be a stumbling block for the other members. If they are happy with what they hear, I would rather leave them alone. The questions about the church have been a big block in my spiritual life. I think as long as I am not happy with my environment, I will not be able to grow spiritually.
If your questions come from that place, then I think your motives are fine.


I have had this conversation with my family. But they are bound by the restrictions on the church and by the responsibilities they hold. They are part of the sunday school administration so they are responsible for organizing things, for planning activities, etc. Also, they help out in the other activities like serving food in the church, cleaning the place after the service and leading the small prayer gatherings in the local neighbourhood.

...

But my church says that we must not celebrate birthdays because it is not the will of God. Herod and Pharaoh did that and it ended in death.

(I am not lying or trying to 'falsely accuse' my church. I am just stating facts as they are, so you have the adequate information to give me some advice.)
I'm curious as to whether anyone in your church would be caught dead in today's equivalent of the Areopagus, or Samaria? For the record, I don't think the Bible has anything against celebrating birthdays. Herod or Pharaoh is hardly comparable. Frankly, I'm more worried about your church's exegesis than anything else.


I want to take a break for Christmas to clear my head. But I cannot do that without the permission for the church. And even if I do, I will have to go to a place where we have an assembly and I will have to attend that assembly. So you see, I am kind of 'stuck' in this place. I can go away under the pretext of some work .... in which case the permission is easy to get and I can say that I am working on Sundays also.
That sounds like a good idea. Do that. Make it two weeks, at least, if you can, or at least be away from your church on Sundays for at least two weeks.

My overriding piece of advice for you would be, if you do decide to leave your church, don't leave without having another church you can go to immediately, that will look after you and protect you. I can't advise any off the top of my head, but I'm sure the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students would have a branch in India. I don't know whereabouts in India you are, but I have a minister friend who is from Tamil Nadu that I trust who might have suggestions if you're in the south somewhere.

I will read I Corinthians over and over again. I am sure that there are hidden truths in that epistle which will give me the answer to my questions. Thank you Nick. :)
Most of the good stuff isn't really hidden - Paul is a very direct kind of person, and isn't backward in coming forward! I hope you find it useful.
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#44
"Bear" in mind that I am writing this without reading Any of the other responses.
Roh_Chris, it is a pleasure and an honor to be in community with you. The internet has been used as a tool of the devil time and again, but it is through fellowships like this that I feel confidant that the internet is God's tool, too.
I worry anytime I hear of a Christian that either is not going through spiritual struggles or cannot look back and speak of major spiritual struggles they have been brought through by God's hand. It either means that they are about to go through something (and need prayers) or that they are so far off God's path without knowing it that the devil doesn't need to bother them, he's got them in his bushel basket come the harvest. So it is with joy, yes joy, that I read your post, dear friend. Philippians 4:4-9
Thank you for reading and replying to my post, Brother. Thank you for your prayers and for your valuable advice. Despite the difficulties in “connecting” with my parents and my church, I do count a lot of the wonderful folk on CC Singles as family, which is why I have “bared” my problems to y’all. :)


From everybody’s replies I have clearly understood that the church is not supposed to “bridle” its members to this extent. This has always been a red flag to me but I thought that this is necessary in order to lead the church towards perfection. Clearly, that is not the case.

3. I do not believe there is ONE right way to worship God.

As Jesus the Christ Himself said in John 4:24, we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth. Worshiping because a man (or woman) commands it of you seems to be counter to this. Worshiping because you are consumed by a crowd doing so and are moved by the crowd mentality seems counter to this. Attempting to present before God any kind of worship that you do not feel in your heart to be giving Him His due seems to me to be counter to it. It's not a fake it till you make it kind of thing, it's bring God your heart, however it may be - imperfect, stained, troubled or joyfully clean - and sincerely give to God the best you can that day. Your offering of worship may be like the two mites (Luke 21) but if you pray like the tax collector (Luke 18) , that is to say earnestly and sincerely, your worship and your prayers are great indeed. Beyond that, who is to say that you need a harp, a drum, a guitar, a fog machine, or a solemn chapel with an a capella song service.
A lot of the advice have pointed out that worship can be in any way. There is no ONE right way to worship God. It is not only a “checkpoint” for my church but also for me as well. I never “approved” of any worship if it was noisy or chaotic. But as long as the person is not disturbing the fellow worshippers, I now understand that any form of worship is fine.

Grace is Amazing. Remember that 'The New Testament is a Message of Reconciliation Not of Condemnation', and you will go far.
I hope that you find a place and a way to worship God, to be part of his church, and to be loved by Family...for by HIS blood we are family, Brother Bear.


Lastly, and separately, do not neglect your health in any way. If you are bleeding you would bandage the wound. If your heart is bleeding, let Christ heal you, too. If you feel you are suffering from a psychiatric condition, do not rush to self diagnosis too soon (some of what you wrote could point towards PTSD or similar instead), but do not neglect proper treatment either. All healing and all comfort comes from God. He may not always choose what we expect (like prayer healing illness one time, but the same illness healing only through medicine another time).

I love you, Brother.
Thank you for those valuable words on God’s Amazing Grace. It is surprising that you spoke of this when that was exactly the song God put in my heart last week. I was contemplating putting up this post for about two days and it was big struggle within myself. Out of nowhere, God reminded me of the “Amazing Grace” song. I felt so reassured because I knew that these questions were from God because He wants to take me through a deeper spiritual path.


***********************

That I think the most important question asked in this whole thread was "Are the people at your church happy? Do they have God's joy?" I forget who asked it though. I've seen many churches that define themselves by how they are NOT like other churches, and most of the members of said churches are usually whipping out the measuring stick all the time. They don't seem to be very happy, they're always too busy measuring others to see if they measure up.

It also matters on how the people think. If they just blindly follow the words of my church, they are very joyful to come to church. If they ask questions and search for the truth, then they are not joyful and end up like me.
Yesterday while discussing with my parents about a close friend of mine who is going through a period of mental depression and physical ailments, my dad just wrote off the prescription for the problem – “He needs to be more spiritual.” I pointed out that his mom is still a believer and that my friend stopped going to church after all these issues happened. To which my dad replied “Well, then he is not spiritual enough. The devil is deceiving him through these diseases when the only solution is by coming to God.” I did not want to carry the discussion further so I dropped off talking with them.

The problem is that nothing is “spiritual enough” for my church. I am not saying that we must be complacent. What I am saying is that if something goes wrong (like when I was without a job for 3 months), the only answer is that there are some sins which I need to confess, some vows to make and some more spirituality to attain. I always have this feeling that I am a sinner and that no matter what I do, it is simply not enough to make my parents shut up. I really don’t know how I can survive in an atmosphere where the only response I get for ANY problem is “It is of the devil. Confess your sins, turn back from your evil ways and get closer to God.” It just drives me insane!


***********************

In terms of 'can' as a biblical form, I would say that any amount of influence is permissible as long as it does not:

a) compromise the truth of the gospel
b) compromise on loving God
c) compromise on loving your neighbour

I would say that some of the things I have heard you say would sound like cultural influences are excessive in your church
……….
I'm curious as to whether anyone in your church would be caught dead in today's equivalent of the Areopagus, or Samaria? For the record, I don't think the Bible has anything against celebrating birthdays. Herod or Pharaoh is hardly comparable. Frankly, I'm more worried about your church's exegesis than anything else
……….
That sounds like a good idea. Do that. Make it two weeks, at least, if you can, or at least be away from your church on Sundays for at least two weeks.

My overriding piece of advice for you would be, if you do decide to leave your church, don't leave without having another church you can go to immediately, that will look after you and protect you. I can't advise any off the top of my head, but I'm sure the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students would have a branch in India. I don't know whereabouts in India you are, but I have a minister friend who is from Tamil Nadu that I trust who might have suggestions if you're in the south somewhere.
Thank you for the advice Nick. And the point on celebrating birthdays was also interesting. I never thought that the Bible forbade birthdays.

I did take a break from church yesterday. Well, a partial one. I attended worship for about half an hour and I sat at the back and worshipped God. Then I left under the pretext of attending to some work.
I will check out this International Fellowship of Evangelical Students and see if they have a branch near where I live. If I can’t find a church I can call “home” within the next couple of months, then I will get in touch with you to meet your minister friend. :)
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#45
Just an update for you all...

I had mentioned earlier that I was taking a couple of weeks' break from church. Today I was reproved by a senior Sister (i.e. nun) at church for not coming to church on Sunday and going for work instead. She gave the example of Oliver & Wilbur Wright who chose not to work on Sunday. She hinted that I am deviating from my path and that this deviation could take me far, far away from God.

This has left me wondering whether God is trying to tell me something - that I am making a mistake by asking all these questions. Nevertheless, I have decided that this Saturday evening will be my last attempt at connecting with God through this church. If I am still restless after that, I will call it quits. My parents can choose to accept me as a "backslider" or I can move out.

I think I have put up with this mess for far too long and prolonging this will not do me any good.
 
C

Charcoal

Guest
#46
wait.... so she was saying that airplanes are evil and that because the Wright brothers worked on Sunday the world trade centers happened? Oh... sorry, thought this was the conspiracy thread.
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#47
wait.... so she was saying that airplanes are evil and that because the Wright brothers worked on Sunday the world trade centers happened? Oh... sorry, thought this was the conspiracy thread.
No, she didn't go that far. She said that the Wright brothers chose to give God the preference over working on their flight on a Sunday. So I need to do the same - not skip Sunday morning worship for any reason whatsoever.

Well, I do give God the preference. At the moment I want to clear things up ...
 
C

Charcoal

Guest
#48
I may be alone in this, but I think that God was behind Man creating the ability to fly, that God is with all kinds of Dr's, cops, firemen, and (hopefully) the people at the restaurants that make some of my Sunday meals. I think that God DOES want us to dedicate time to Him, but that also He wants us to eat. I like Matthew 12 as an example of this.
For those who are full time ministers, does not their vocation have its peak at church services each week? Lets see them stop showing up and say, "Sorry God wants me to not work on the 'Sabbath'."

Sorry...I'm full of vinegar today, so take me with a spoon full of sugar... or baking soda. Your choice. Or we can just make pickles and call it a good day, LOL.
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#49
I may be alone in this, but I think that God was behind Man creating the ability to fly, that God is with all kinds of Dr's, cops, firemen, and (hopefully) the people at the restaurants that make some of my Sunday meals. I think that God DOES want us to dedicate time to Him, but that also He wants us to eat. I like Matthew 12 as an example of this.
For those who are full time ministers, does not their vocation have its peak at church services each week? Lets see them stop showing up and say, "Sorry God wants me to not work on the 'Sabbath'."

Sorry...I'm full of vinegar today, so take me with a spoon full of sugar... or baking soda. Your choice. Or we can just make pickles and call it a good day, LOL.
I am gonna marinate on your post and rest my head for the night. :)
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
4,436
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#50
Today I was reproved by a senior Sister (i.e. nun) at church for not coming to church on Sunday and going for work instead. She gave the example of Oliver & Wilbur Wright who chose not to work on Sunday. She hinted that I am deviating from my path and that this deviation could take me far, far away from God.

This has left me wondering whether God is trying to tell me something - that I am making a mistake by asking all these questions. Nevertheless, I have decided that this Saturday evening will be my last attempt at connecting with God through this church. If I am still restless after that, I will call it quits. My parents can choose to accept me as a "backslider" or I can move out.

I think I have put up with this mess for far too long and prolonging this will not do me any good.
Glad you've come to at least some sort of preliminary decision. As far as the sister reproving you, I make it a rule to not listen too closely to people who have not yet earned my respect and good opinion. If you have no relationship with this woman or reason to put more weight on her words than those of any random stranger then don't let the fact that a church you are questioning has given her a title sway your opinion of her advice. While I can't dictate to God, I would say and think that if God wants to get your attention and let you know that your questioning is wrong, the most effective way would be to have people outside the church, or even strangers bring you that message (and yes God can speak through anyone, not just the members of your church) not people who are enmeshed in a system whose credibility you are questioning.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
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#51
Roh_Chris: I would caution you not to throw out everything that the church doesn't give you a good explanation for, just because their explanation is wrong. Some of the things you listed in your first few posts are good ideas to follow, just not for the reasons given. It seems your church has twisted scripture in an effort to justify them in a modern world that doesn't want to go along with it. But they are good things to follow anyway.

Remember, when the pharisees castigated Jesus and his disciples for picking corn to eat on the sabbath day, Jesus said the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath... but the sabbath was still made for man, and for a good reason. (And no, I didn't pull that one out just because you skipped church... it's the only one I could think of right now.)

Please don't think I'm saying all the rules of your church are good and right. Some, like the arranged marriages for example, are definitely a product of local culture. But please be careful not to throw out a rule just because that church's justification for it is flawed.
 
C

Charcoal

Guest
#52
I make it a rule to not listen too closely to people who have not yet earned my respect and good opinion.
And this is why cinder likes me... she doesn't listen to a word I say ;)

If you have no relationship with this woman or reason to put more weight on her words than those of any random stranger then don't let the fact that a church you are questioning has given her a title sway your opinion of her advice. While I can't dictate to God, I would say and think that if God wants to get your attention and let you know that your questioning is wrong, the most effective way would be to have people outside the church, or even strangers bring you that message (and yes God can speak through anyone, not just the members of your church) not people who are enmeshed in a system whose credibility you are questioning.
I, however, am listening to cinder's advice here... she's got an interesting point.
I actually am not of the camp that holds out for messages from God. I like it when they come, and try to be open, listening for them. I think sometimes He seems quiet on things because He's all, "I done told you, silly Charcoal... go back and read it again!"
Whatever church you choose needs to be in line with the scriptures. If you're not sure what that will look like... best study up, Bro.

Keep fighting the good fight. It will be tiresome, but he will give you endurance. Be it here, or wherever you can find them, surround yourself with your own Aaron and Hurr. We all need someone. Some of us need many.
 
May 3, 2013
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#53
I wonder if you could find a small church... even a "home" church. These are the sorts of churches that might have a better chance of having real fellowship and authentic spiritual growth. Not always, but often. They are harder to find though, since they don't have large advertising budgets. Dig around though. There may be something near you that you never knew existed until now. :)
To Roh-Chris:

That is one of the better ideas I read here. In fact, I believe that was the desire of Jesus, not mega or tera churches and you yourself have the chance to start it.

By 1994 I was engaged in that! I left Caracas and moved to a town where there is not much to pick and, now, I'm planning to help an Adventist Church very near my house (just for Saturdays service)
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#54
While I can't dictate to God, I would say and think that if God wants to get your attention and let you know that your questioning is wrong, the most effective way would be to have people outside the church, or even strangers bring you that message (and yes God can speak through anyone, not just the members of your church) not people who are enmeshed in a system whose credibility you are questioning.

This was very sensible. Thank you. I did not realize that God could speak through others if He wanted to. That being said, the most important thing for me is to keep an open mind in pursuit of the truth.


Roh_Chris: I would caution you not to throw out everything that the church doesn't give you a good explanation for, just because their explanation is wrong. Some of the things you listed in your first few posts are good ideas to follow, just not for the reasons given. It seems your church has twisted scripture in an effort to justify them in a modern world that doesn't want to go along with it. But they are good things to follow anyway.
……
Please don't think I'm saying all the rules of your church are good and right. Some, like the arranged marriages for example, are definitely a product of local culture. But please be careful not to throw out a rule just because that church's justification for it is flawed.

I know what you mean. And I also believe that the good intention behind these rules is to avoid “excessiveness”. For example, they ban wearing of gold ornaments in order to prevent situations like the ones below –

(This man has made a gold shirt worth 14,000 GBP to attract women.)

article-2257209-16C051F1000005DC-920_634x822.jpg


(The bride is ‘covered’ in gold and all the ornaments could be worth around USD 200,000.)



The same applies for TV or medicines. But moderation is different from blind prohibition. So I will not throw out the intention behind the rule. Thank you for pointing that out to me, Lynx. :)


Keep fighting the good fight. It will be tiresome, but he will give you endurance. Be it here, or wherever you can find them, surround yourself with your own Aaron and Hurr. We all need someone. Some of us need many.
Of course, of course, I will. ;)


To Roh-Chris:

That is one of the better ideas I read here. In fact, I believe that was the desire of Jesus, not mega or tera churches and you yourself have the chance to start it.
I don’t think I would start a church, mate. But Grace said a very valuable point and I am praying over it. :)
 
1

1cubed

Guest
#55
Hi, As I read this thread, I am thankful for you Chris, I am sure that many others have the same questions and may have fear to express them. I am hopeful that clarity will come for you and others. There are many answers to your questions in the bible. Romans 8 has been huge for me as I have faced questions about God and His love for me. Starting with No Condemnation and ending with nothing can separate us from His Love.

I was raised in a controlling verbally and physically abusive home, church was not a part of it. I was married to a controlling abusive man for 20 years. I have been a Christian for 30 years and in Ministry with my husband for 10 years. As I learned more and more about Jesus, and God's love for me. I finally started to stand against the abuse, in complete love for my family, my husband, and my children. Today I have lost relationships with all of my family, my husband and my children, and most of my Christian friends It has been devastating to say the least. Control, legalism, and abuse are not God's way. Love is Gods way! 1 Cor 13. (I could go on and on with verses on Love and grace, but as I read the posts you are receiving plenty already)

I would not wish the condemnation, confusion, pain, or loneliness on my worst enemy. I also would not go back!
I did not leave any of them, I just stood on truth, the more I stood the more I was attacked. Until there was just me and God. In pain and barely left with breath, God called me to forgive them, and Love them still. This was the best blessing that God could ever give me! Being free from resentment, and bitterness, allows God's Love to fill me! I have so desired the love of my parents all of my life, and the love from others. Yet nothing compares to the Love of God!

The things you are facing have a cost. To stand on God's Truth, has cost me. The cost has no comparison to the cost that Christ paid for me, and the Freedom that He gave me!

Truth will set you Free. I encourage you to continue seeking and living in Truth.

You are LOVED! You are VALUABLE! God has His PERFECT plan for you!
 

Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#56
Thank you for your reply 1cubed. I suppose that you have made the right decision to stand up against the abuse.

And welcome to CC! :)
 
H

HLR

Guest
#57
I don't know how to reply to some of this due to not being in the same country you're in; maybe some of it is more acceptable there. To be frank with you though, some of the things in the original post here seem almost cult-like to me. I understand the issue you're facing due to your parents. If not for that the easy answer would be for me to say: "RUN. Run far away." I'm kinduva sensing though, you can't.

I can't give you a clear answer; but do know I will be in prayer for you. I hope you find peace in all of this turmoil.
 
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Roh_Chris

Senior Member
Jun 15, 2014
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#58
So I did attend church today evening. It was a communion. I sat there feeling very disconnected but I kept praying and hoping for God to touch me. There were a couple of prophecies but they didn't seem to be for me. Then the pastor preached and it went over my head because I was in a muddle of emotions.

Tomorrow is Sunday. To be honest, it is a huge mental/physical/social/emotional struggle to move out of this church. I just wish I could float along like a dead-weight. My only fear is that I am only deceiving myself by living like this. But I really don't have the strength to take the next step.
 
Sep 6, 2013
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#59
So I did attend church today evening. It was a communion. I sat there feeling very disconnected but I kept praying and hoping for God to touch me. There were a couple of prophecies but they didn't seem to be for me. Then the pastor preached and it went over my head because I was in a muddle of emotions.

Tomorrow is Sunday. To be honest, it is a huge mental/physical/social/emotional struggle to move out of this church. I just wish I could float along like a dead-weight. My only fear is that I am only deceiving myself by living like this. But I really don't have the strength to take the next step.
I can understand that Chris. It will be exhausting, difficult, bold and partially crazy to leave a church like this. I do pray that you can do it though. Your spirit needs nourishment, and it doesn't sound like there is much to be had in your present situation.

I wonder if you could find a mid-week Bible study or small group from another church to go to? It might be a nice way to gradually move toward the door of your own church, test your feelings on the differences between church groups, be fed spiritually, gain friends outside of your church, and store up courage.

You could hopefully avoid detection at your present church at least until you figure out what you want to do, if there's a Wednesday evening group you could meet with while still formally attending your church.
 
B

BananaPie

Guest
#60
...My only fear is that I am only deceiving myself by living like this. But I really don't have the strength to take the next step.
It is precisely when we are weak that the strength of God is made known, for God has promised,

He gives strength to the weary, and increases power to the weak (Isaiah 40:29);
My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness (2 Corinthians 12:9);
So that your faith may not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God
(2 Corinthians 2:5).