What of the dinosaurs?

[JackH]

So yes, if you tried to change my mind about God, you would be talking to a brick wall; for how could I deny the One who has changed me so profoundly?

You can believe in an earth that is 4.5 billion years old (as opposed to believing in an earth that is 6,000 years old) while still believing in God. You can believe T. rex and friends became extinct 65 million years ago (as opposed to being created 6,000 years ago and coexisting with humans) while still believing in God.

The majority of Christian denominations do accept an old earth.

The conflict arises when Young Earth Creationists and organizations like Institute for Creation Research and Answers in Genesis unnecessarily pit science against religion and label those who don't agree with their nonsense as heretics and the like. At the very least, "they" are guilty of intellectual dishonesty in the manner in which scientific information is presented. In my opinion, half of what they say is BS, and the other half they don't even believe themselves.

 

[Straightshot]

The "young earth" theory is a ruse .... a compromise against the Genesis Account

 

[JackH]

I saw this discussion linked to a short item I wrote debunking the Institute for Creation Research claim that dinosaur DNA had been recovered. (It has not).

Thanks for your input on this thread yesterday. Enlightening.

So, DNA of sufficient quality/quantity can be extracted from bones and teeth that are many thousands of years old (far beyond 6,000 years old) such as to tell us much about those fossils. Right?

But not dinosaur fossils because they are just too old at more than 65 million years old. Right?

Do you think being able to extract DNA of sufficient quality/quantity from dinosaur fossils is a reasonable future possibility?

The fact that we can not get "good" DNA from dinosaur fossils as opposed to human-like fossils that are hundreds of thousands of years old, leads me to think that in itself is evidence the dinosaur fossils are millions of years old. Would you agree with that?

One more thing. I would like to see you debate Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind) on these issues. Of course, you would have to go to his place, as in the federal prison in Atlanta where he is incarcerated.

 

[ColinCat]

The "young earth" theory is a ruse .... a compromise against the Genesis Account

Yea as much as we have disagreed in the past I agree with what your saying. The old earth theory fits much more comfortably with science than a 6000 year old earth.

Why make things difficult? Lol

 

[GodIsSalvation]

One of the most interesting episodes of the formation of the Old Earth mythology comes from an episode in real history known as the Bone Wars. Most people, old earthers and realists alike, are not even aware of this very significant event.

Here is a brief article about the Bone Wars. I highly recommend further research into this event:
O.C. Marsh and E.D. Cope: A Rivalry . Dinosaur Wars . WGBH American Experience | PBS

The Bone Wars is significant in many ways. Firstly, it is one of the biggest rushes to find fossils of all time. Secondly, almost everything the old earth mythology dictates about the dinosaurs comes from this episode. In fact many of the most popular dinosaurs known today were found and illustrated in this time and many of the ways the dinos are depicted originates from this time era, despite the fact many of the dinosaurs found by Cope and Marsh were in fact arranged the wrong way or elsewise are the same exact animal with a different name.

Comically, the modern scientists like to still tout this as one of the greatest proofs of evolution and thereby the old earth. There is however a huge flaw in that logic. The funny thing about the Bone Wars is you have two hard-nosed scientists competing against eachother for fame, funding, and bluntly a personal feud. In their mad quest to out do eachother Cope and Marsh rearranged dino skeletons incorrectly, placed the wrong parts on the wrong animals, artificially inflated the number of dinosaur species by simply naming the same animal multiple times, intentionally destroyed fossils, bribed eachothers workers, stole eachother's fossils, spied on eachother, ran smear campaigns discreditting eachother, and manipulated various scientific institutions and even the government. All of which taken together of course discredits themselves and their institutions which are still around today, and of course discredits much of the modern understanding of dinosaurs which is founded upon their works.

The Bone Wars proves indeed that it is no conspiracy, but rather is a well-documented fact that the Old Earth mythology is basically founded upon fraud, error, and arbitrary guesses and that its support mechanisms are moreso political and financial rather than scientific.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

It is actual very difficult to directly date rock art pigments. However, in just the last 2-3 years new technologies have become available which should make this feasible. It was impossible when I published my last paper on rock art (1991 "The Analysis of an Unusual Rock Art Pigment by Neutron Activation Analysis." George E. Miller, G. S. Hurd in Ken Hedges (ed.) Proceedings of the 15th Annual Rock Art Symposia, San Diego: Museum of Man).

There are many examples of faked "dinosaur rock art." We know they are faked because they match illustrations in popular children's books on dinosaurs, and comic book art which used badly reconstructed images. Here is an example;

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

I don't think we will ever be lucky enough to be able to sequence the DNA of any of the hundreds of thousands of dinosaur species that once existed. We might get some fragmented DNA recovery, but we won't really know what it was from originally. Mary Schweitzer thinks she recovered heme, and some globin fragments. But she could not sequence them. You might look at: Dino Blood and the Young Earth

The oldest human DNA recovered was a very short sequence dated from fossils ~700,000 years old. The oldest completely reconstructed human DNA genome was recently published from 430,000 years ago. In that study published this year, the paleoanthropologists had to use samples from 17 individuals, and overlap the results. Different specimens had different sections of DNA that was too degraded to sequence. The oldest entire genome from modern European humans was ~36,000 years old (also published this year). But, the work continues, and the chemical methods are still improving.

"Neandertal roots: Cranial and chronological evidence from Sima de los Huesos" Science 20 June 2014: Vol. 344 no. 6190 pp. 1358-1363

"Genomic structure in Europeans dating back at least 36,200 years" Published Online November 6 2014 Science DOI: 10.1126/science.aaa0114

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

The rush to fill their respective museums with new fossils led Marsh (Yale University), and Cope (Academy of Natural Sciences, Philadelphia) to all sorts of shenanigans. They even accused each other of blowing up the other's field sites. Eventually they could not agree with each other about anything. Cope even rejected Darwinian evolution. (The Wikipedia article is quite good:
Bone Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this was between 1877 to 1892, over 120 years ago. While scientists have learned orders of magnitude more about dinosaur anatomy, and taxonomy since then, creationists have repeatedly used those false reconstructions as part of their silly "Humans and Dinos together on the ark stories." Since the development of rapid, and inexpensive DNA sequencing, paleontology has taken the backseat in evolutionary theory testing.

The fact of an ancient Earth is demonstrated by geology, and radioisotope geochemistry.

 

[JackH]

One of the most interesting episodes of the formation of the Old Earth mythology comes from an episode in real history known as the Bone Wars. Most people, old earthers and realists alike, are not even aware of this very significant event.

Here is a brief article about the Bone Wars. I highly recommend further research into this event:
O.C. Marsh and E.D. Cope: A Rivalry . Dinosaur Wars . WGBH American Experience | PBS

The Bone Wars is significant in many ways. Firstly, it is one of the biggest rushes to find fossils of all time. Secondly, almost everything the old earth mythology dictates about the dinosaurs comes from this episode. In fact many of the most popular dinosaurs known today were found and illustrated in this time and many of the ways the dinos are depicted originates from this time era, despite the fact many of the dinosaurs found by Cope and Marsh were in fact arranged the wrong way or elsewise are the same exact animal with a different name.

Comically, the modern scientists like to still tout this as one of the greatest proofs of evolution and thereby the old earth. There is however a huge flaw in that logic. The funny thing about the Bone Wars is you have two hard-nosed scientists competing against eachother for fame, funding, and bluntly a personal feud. In their mad quest to out do eachother Cope and Marsh rearranged dino skeletons incorrectly, placed the wrong parts on the wrong animals, artificially inflated the number of dinosaur species by simply naming the same animal multiple times, intentionally destroyed fossils, bribed eachothers workers, stole eachother's fossils, spied on eachother, ran smear campaigns discreditting eachother, and manipulated various scientific institutions and even the government. All of which taken together of course discredits themselves and their institutions which are still around today, and of course discredits much of the modern understanding of dinosaurs which is founded upon their works.

The Bone Wars proves indeed that it is no conspiracy, but rather is a well-documented fact that the Old Earth mythology is basically founded upon fraud, error, and arbitrary guesses and that its support mechanisms are moreso political and financial rather than scientific.

Actually, I am quite familiar with and interested in the Bones War. Thank you for bringing it up.

What you say in this post, however, is typical of YEC mindless drivel. I like to refer to it as the Hovindian Syndrome, named after Dr. Dino. Victims of the Hovindian Syndrome exhibit the signs of having undergone a frontal lobotomy, without actually having had the operation.

Hey, at least Cope and Marsh weren't convicts were they? Like Dr. Dino, the patron saint of many Young Earth Creationists.

 

[JackH]

I don't think we will ever be lucky enough to be able to sequence the DNA of any of the hundreds of thousands of dinosaur species that once existed. We might get some fragmented DNA recovery, but we won't really know what it was from originally. Mary Schweitzer thinks she recovered heme, and some globin fragments. But she could not sequence them. You might look at: Dino Blood and the Young Earth

The oldest human DNA recovered was a very short sequence dated from fossils ~700,000 years old. The oldest completely reconstructed human DNA genome was recently published from 430,000 years ago. In that study published this year, the paleoanthropologists had to use samples from 17 individuals, and overlap the results. Different specimens had different sections of DNA that was too degraded to sequence. The oldest entire genome from modern European humans was ~36,000 years old (also published this year). But, the work continues, and the chemical methods are still improving.

"Neandertal roots: Cranial and chronological evidence from Sima de los Huesos" Science 20 June 2014: Vol. 344 no. 6190 pp. 1358-1363

"Genomic structure in Europeans dating back at least 36,200 years" Published Online November 6 2014 Science DOI: 10.1126/science.aaa0114

Dino Blood and the Young Earth is an outstanding article, Dr. Hurd. Thank you for writing it.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

I suppose Kent "dr. dino" Hovind is a fair topic. It seems he is in even more legal trouble.

'Dr. Dino' facing new legal woes

Government Coming Down Harder On Kent Hovind - Forbes

The second article is a bit more friendly toward Hovind.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Dino Blood and the Young Earth is an outstanding article, Dr. Hurd. Thank you for writing it.

I am glad you liked it.

 

[JackH]

Research the claims of scoffers yourself. Look at the ICR evidence of yet organic remains of blood components in dinosaur bones. It is unimanageable that over millions of years any organic compound, or any residue in the bone marrow, could contain characteristics of organic material! It must long ago have been replaced with mineral substances. But that didn't happen. The academic rules prevented slicing up dinosaur bones because of their rarity, In these days of ours some researchers with fine reputation and ability dare to defy the rules of academia, as set by Satan himself. Look at the evidence for yourself. Know that TRUTH is offered by God in nature, and in His word recorded long ago.

I suggest you read Dr. Hurd's article on this subject referenced to today.

Since he is here on this thread, now is your perfect opportunity to take the matter up with him.

Go ahead, make my day.

 

[JackH]

I suppose Kent "dr. dino" Hovind is a fair topic. It seems he is in even more legal trouble.

'Dr. Dino' facing new legal woes

Government Coming Down Harder On Kent Hovind - Forbes

The second article is a bit more friendly toward Hovind.

Dr. Dino is a fair topic because in only the second post on this thread a link to a Dr. Dino video is provided. With a comment saying Dr. Dino explains it well, meaning that the earth is 6.000 years old and dinosaurs coexisted with humans.

Every other week or so a new thread is created on this website about a young earth, dinosaurs, et al. It never fails. Somebody praises Dr. Dino and links to one of his videos. Very funny.

 

[JackH]

I am glad you liked it.

Have you written any articles about Hell Creek? Or know of any real good ones?

Here you have the one place on earth (the over 4.5 billion-year-old earth) that disproves just about everything Young Earth Creationists say about a young earth, a global flood, the ice age, and dinosaurs coexisting with humans.

I'm thinking of an article with a title like "Hell Creek - Young Earth Creationists' worst nightmare."

And I'm not talking a nightmare like being chased by a T. rex, since we know that T. rex and humans did not coexist. At least some of us know that.

I've often wondered how exactly these YECs think that humans killed T. rex 4,000 - 6,000 years ago. Good luck with that spear. Of course, you could sling rocks that are billions of years old at it. And getting the baby T. rex or eggs on the ark, how did they get it away from mama T. rex? And what happened when the baby T. rex got off the ark, got bigger, and got hungry? And how the heck did T. rex get all the way over to Montana from the ark? So T. rex changed his diet from rabbit food to meat after the Fall? Where are all the crushed up human remains? I mean we have seen ancient rodent-like bites on dinosaur bones. Where are the fossils with T. rex bites on human bones? Questions, I have a lot of questions.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

The rush to fill their respective museums with new fossils led Marsh (Yale University), and Cope (Academy of Natural Sciences, Philadelphia) to all sorts of shenanigans. They even accused each other of blowing up the other's field sites. Eventually they could not agree with each other about anything. Cope even rejected Darwinian evolution. (The Wikipedia article is quite good:
Bone Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But this was between 1877 to 1892, over 120 years ago. While scientists have learned orders of magnitude more about dinosaur anatomy, and taxonomy since then, creationists have repeatedly used those false reconstructions as part of their silly "Humans and Dinos together on the ark stories." Since the development of rapid, and inexpensive DNA sequencing, paleontology has taken the backseat in evolutionary theory testing.

The fact of an ancient Earth is demonstrated by geology, and radioisotope geochemistry.

It might have been a little over a hundred years a go, but the fact still remains a huge proportion of what is taught about the dinosaurs and the old earth mythology comes from Cope and Marsh. Lol, even in this own thread we have had mention of Brontosaurus, one of the most famous faux-dinosaurs of the current time. You still have supposed scientific institutions using their drawings and their flawed finds even touting them as their "best proof for evolution" lol.

As for geology being an accurate dating method, this is all ready been disproven for the way they date said rock strata is by index fossils and the index fossils by rock strata which if that is not illogical enough, we have all ready covered how one particular index fossil, Coelacanth actually is still alive thus controverting anything ever dated by that fossil. So geology is not a reliable dating method. Radio-atomic dating has for the past few years been debunked as severely flawed giving random and varying results, it is perhaps the most unreliable dating method there is. DNA dating is also flawed for they measure the dates by mutations, despite the fact we now know today that mutations can be caused by various factors both genetic and environmental, and thus any one DNA could have multiple mutations which occured for any number of reasons within it thus leading to a false result unless you can find a person whom is perfect and whose forefathers are all perfect.

This leaves only one leg for the Old Earth mythology to stand on, and that is the famous "an institution or scientists said so" argument. Which of course looking at the Bone Wars and other scientific intrigues and scandals, we can see this is a terrible argument since modern science has a well documented history of suppression, error, and corruption for political, personal, and/or financial motives.

 

[JackH]

modern science has a well documented history of suppression, error, and corruption for political, personal, and/or financial motives.

And your evidence/source for this statement is what, exactly?

 

[Kerry]

Has anybody seen one. I meant as big as they are somebody would have seen it. Sit down and get a grip cause it will astound you. They are preadamic. Wow.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How about all the documented finds of graves that hold anywhere to 6 to 11 foot tall human like skeletons.
Where are all these skeletons now, they keep taking them and hiding them some where to cover up the evidence of the find.

 

[Dr_GS_Hurd]

Have you written any articles about Hell Creek? Or know of any real good ones?

I'm thinking of an article with a title like "Hell Creek - Young Earth Creationists' worst nightmare."

Sounds like a great article.

Why not post it to TalkOrigins?

You should be able to email to me. garyhurd @at cox dot.net

I don't try to hide. I do employ some fierce antivirus software.