Works and Salvation
- Thread starter iwant2serve
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
yeah it is works based. it is based on works.
In your system, God is not omniscient enough to know if your faith is real or not. He needs you to work to prove your worthy.
sounds alot like the pharisees to me.
In this logic, you could go further and say that God is not all-powerful enough since you need to validate His work on the cross by believing.
Also, this logic minimizes a lot the living faith of the martyrs. They could have said in their hearts that they believe, and with their mouths say that they don't believe. After all, God is omniscient and know their hearts, right?
Paul did not limit the word "works" to only specific works under the Law, as I explained in post #132. Now show me where Paul said that we are "saved by works." What did Paul say in Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; and 2 Timothy 1:9? The whole "not saved by specific works of the Law" but "saved by good works in general" argument is bogus. Roman Catholics and Mormons use this argument as well in order to "get around" the truth that salvation is through faith and is not by works.
you seem to have a problem with works...are we not created unto good works?
Gen 22:12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."
It was AFTER Abraham obeyed by offering Isaac that God said "now I know that thou fearest God seeing thou hast not withheld thy son...from Me"
No works = no faith for the works prove the faith.
Do you really believe that God doubted Abraham? Could God have been surprised by Abrahams actions? God said it for Abrahams and our benefit.
Abraham believed God would fulfill His promise and that if Isaac was sacrificed God would raise him up and make of him a great nation. Abraham believed and that is what drove his actions.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Let me say this again. No work can save anyone because we are not saved by doing good. Salvation is by faith alone Jesus said whoever believes on him will be saved. To be saved we must believe on the finished work of Jesus that his blood sacrifice paid our debt to sin.
With that being said, receiving Jesus in your heart causes for repentence. That means the way you think has changed from what it was (sinfull) to being renwed in the Spirit Christ like), let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus. Now what kind of works did Jesus do (I only do what the Father tells me). Is the works of God good or sinful? Jesus said the works I do you will also and greater works will you do! Therefore what James is saying is the saving faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross causes you to think differently which causes you to do good works.
With that being said, receiving Jesus in your heart causes for repentence. That means the way you think has changed from what it was (sinfull) to being renwed in the Spirit Christ like), let this mind be in you which is also in Jesus. Now what kind of works did Jesus do (I only do what the Father tells me). Is the works of God good or sinful? Jesus said the works I do you will also and greater works will you do! Therefore what James is saying is the saving faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross causes you to think differently which causes you to do good works.
God foreknew what Abraham would do, so why would God say "NOW I know" AFTER Abraham obeyed?
Could it be that God was using some "accomodative language" in helping Abraham to understand that by his act of obedience that God NOW knows he feared God as proven by his actual obedience? Yes. So this is why James would say "by works a man is justified"
"Now I know…
This, along with James' declaration that Abraham was justified when he offered up Isaac makes mandatory the conclusion that God's final approval of Abraham as the instrument of his purpose occurred right here. The truth that God already knows everything does not nullify this. The great corollary for all people is simply this: God tests every person who would receive eternal life. If God compelled Abraham to withstand such a (obedient) test as this, how could it ever be imagined that God today saves people merely upon the glib assertion of their faith (only)? The test for all people now was announced by Christ himself: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16)."
Coffman Commentary (my emp)
So when one believes and is baptized Christ "now knows" that person fears Him seeing that person has obeyed His words (pass the test as Abraham).
Last edited:
A sinner is NOT saved by doing good works but is saved by obedient works in believing Jn 8:24 repenting Lk 13:3,5 confessing Mt 10:32,33 and being baptized Mk 16:16. After one become a Christian/saved he then must do good works to maintain that salvation Eph 2:10.
Does this mean that God did not know for sure what Abraham would do until He saw the raised knife? Does it also mean that God did not know whether or not Abraham feared Him? You are presented with a problem because God knows all the present completely and totally. If God knows all present things exhaustively, then did God not know the state of Abraham's heart regarding Abraham's reverent fear for God? How could He not? 1 Chronicles 28:9 says, "..for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.." Since God knows even the intent of the heart, then He knew what the intent of Abraham's heart was during the three-day journey to the place of sacrifice as well as whether or not Abraham feared Him. Again, He would have known that Abraham feared Him, and the test was unnecessary to establish this fact.
Then what does it mean?
Since we can see that it is not consistent with scripture and logic to say that God did not know what was in Abraham's heart and that God did not know what Abraham would do, we can conclude that God was speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with. This is not at all foreign to scripture. In Genesis 3:9, after Adam's sin, God calls to Adam and asks, "Where are you?" Are we to say that God did not know where Adam was in the garden? Of course not. God makes statements often designed to reveal to us a truth that needs to be presented. In fact, God often asks questions He already knows the answer to. In Abraham's case, God was simply relating to Abraham in terms consistent with what Abraham would understand, particularly after the actual event with Isaac on the altar and was for his benefit.
your foundation is weak....faith without works is dead...faith alone is dead faith...
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. thus salvation cannot be by faith alone....you even left out grace trying to prove your point...salvation is by grace through faith...
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
People are right from both points;
Works do not save you, neither does faith alone.
One who has faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, but does not repent of their sins is not saved.
Same as one who lives a good, loving, and giving life, but does not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not saved.
They work hand and hand, one without the other is dead faith which does not save.
Simplify in human terms: You can not have chocolate milk without having both milk and chocolate syrup.
Works do not save you, neither does faith alone.
One who has faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior, but does not repent of their sins is not saved.
Same as one who lives a good, loving, and giving life, but does not believe in Jesus as Lord and Savior is not saved.
They work hand and hand, one without the other is dead faith which does not save.
Simplify in human terms: You can not have chocolate milk without having both milk and chocolate syrup.
does not matter if he knew....what matters is what you do....
Genesis 26 King James Version (KJV)
26 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Lord appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
If you knew God you would know that God is the Holy One Who inhabits eternity. God inhabits eternity past, present and future. There is no time when God is not present there is nothing that God does not know in its entirety.
The very nature and person of God refutes your ideology. Until you are Spirit born you cannot know the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit must be present in your heart to know anything Spiritually beyond the basic facts that all men are sinners, that Jesus Christ was without sin and that the judgment of God is upon sin. There is nothing but foolishness in the heart of a man who attempts to describe the things of God which he refuses to know. Professing themselves to be wise they became fools. The wisdom of unsaved men is foolishness to God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Sorry but this makes no sense. This is God we are talking about here, not a flawed human.
It is a HUGE difference in saying God needs to validate your faith by having you do a work first. And him saying, I did the work, do you trust me.
He is handing you the gift, are you going to take it in faith, or try to pay for it with your works.
That is what is in question here