Works and Salvation

[eternally-gratefull]

tell it to James....we are saved by grace.....you claim to be saved by faith...scripture teaches we are saved by grace through faith...and faith without works is dead......you teach you are saved by faith without works......and that is where we part ways....

we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS.

Your the one adding works.

also. the faith of james is not in eph 2: 8-9. James is talking to people who have just belief (no faith) Not to people who have real faith. so eph 2 would not even be talking to them, they have not come to faith yet.

In your gospel. God need proof, because he does not know. Does God even know whats going to happen tomorrow? How can he have a hand on the earth if he has to guess at what things will happen or will not?

 

[GuessWho]

Paul often speaks of "works of the Law," since there were particular kinds of works under the Law that members of his audience were prone to perform, being Jewish (Acts 15:5; Romans 3; Galatians 3).

I think that regardless of his audience, Paul was talking in a continuum (The Law is replaced by The Gospel) and not in a vacuum. I mean...Paul, when talking about salvation, presents a wide picture of the history of humanity (and, of course, Israel, because it is with Israel that God made a covenant) and about God's plan of salvation which includes anybody who believes that Christ is the Messiah and is willing to take this belief to the level of changing his life, and tells pagans that they also can be part of this New Israel even tough they are not Jews (and they don't NEED to become Jews, but they do have to give up their paganism).

This is how I read Paul. As a Jew who understood justification in terms of covenant (when he was Saul, he understood it in terms of the Law, and once he became a christian, he understood it in terms of the Gospel).

 

[SeaBass]

Does this mean that God did not know for sure what Abraham would do until He saw the raised knife? Does it also mean that God did not know whether or not Abraham feared Him? You are presented with a problem because God knows all the present completely and totally. If God knows all present things exhaustively, then did God not know the state of Abraham's heart regarding Abraham's reverent fear for God? How could He not? 1 Chronicles 28:9 says, "..for the Lord searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts.." Since God knows even the intent of the heart, then He knew what the intent of Abraham's heart was during the three-day journey to the place of sacrifice as well as whether or not Abraham feared Him. Again, He would have known that Abraham feared Him, and the test was unnecessary to establish this fact.

Then what does it mean?

Since we can see that it is not consistent with scripture and logic to say that God did not know what was in Abraham's heart and that God did not know what Abraham would do, we can conclude that God was speaking to Abraham in terms that Abraham was familiar with. This is not at all foreign to scripture. In Genesis 3:9, after Adam's sin, God calls to Adam and asks, "Where are you?" Are we to say that God did not know where Adam was in the garden? Of course not. God makes statements often designed to reveal to us a truth that needs to be presented. In fact, God often asks questions He already knows the answer to. In Abraham's case, God was simply relating to Abraham in terms consistent with what Abraham would understand, particularly after the actual event with Isaac on the altar and was for his benefit.

God did not say "now I know" because He did not have foreknowledge but used those words to make Abraham understand that God now knew, by Abraham's obedience, that Abraham feared God. God waited until AFTER Abraham obeyed to let Abraham know that God knew that Abraham feared him.

 

[SeaBass]

You make it so easy, it is amazing.

God declared Abraham righteous in Gen 15. In fact, his name had not even been changed yet, it was still Abram.

The sacrifice of Isaac came LONG after abram was declared righteous by God by his FAITH.

Why was it then that God did say "now I know" that Abraham feared him until he offered Issac? It was by this obedient work that Abraham was justified according to James.

The point being avoided is it was AFTER Abraham obeyed God that God said "now I know". God foreknew Abraham would obey Him that was the reason God chose Abraham in the first place, Gen 18:19. So even though God foreknew Abraham would obey God waited until AFTER he obeyed to tell Abraham "now I know". God did not know by faith only Abraham feared him but by obedience.

 

[SeaBass]

contradiction. Open your eyes, You just made two contradictory statements in one post.

Your refusal to understand that free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting those conditions cannot earn the free gift does not make me wrong, it just leaves you in the dark on this subject.

Is it contradictory that Naaman's obedience in dipping did not earn him God's grace but his dipping was required by God's grace? Hardly.

 

[SeaBass]

so God needed proof? He did not know?? WOW!!

Was he doing it for his own benefit, or for abraham's benefit?

Why do you belittle God so much??

God waited until Abraham FIRST OBEYED before telling him "now I know". Abraham's obedience was the proof he feared God and God let Abraham know that by saying "now I know".

 

[newbirth]

we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS.

Your the one adding works.

faith without work is dead...yes or no?

also. the faith of james is not in eph 2: 8-9. James is talking to people who have just belief (no faith) Not to people who have real faith. so eph 2 would not even be talking to them, they have not come to faith yet.

then why did he say faith without works is dead.....scripture teaches ..one faith....so when you say...

the faith of james is not in eph 2: 8-9. James is talking to people who have just belief (no faith)

you are talking rubbish

In your gospel. God need proof, because he does not know. Does God even know whats going to happen tomorrow? How can he have a hand on the earth if he has to guess at what things will happen or will not?

I don't have a gospel....it is the gospel of Christ I believe.....you are the one who came up with God needs proof....not me....God wants us to obey.....not just believe

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

 

[Jackson123]

For brother and sister that believe work is required for salvation, I will ask a question.

Do you need to be sinless before you die to make your work enough?

on scale 1 - 10 On what level is you think enough to bring you to heaven?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

so when are you going to obey the gospel. And stop trying to make the gospel of grace a gospel of works.

 

[penknight]

Someone here answer me this: How long should you try to convince someone before realizing that it may be better not to say more? Sometimes making your position profusely, could harden the position of the person you're trying to help, and so at times it's best to let them be, and those are the times when prayer that they receive guidance should be done, not more debating.

 

[Butch5]

You know, all of this tossing Scripture back and forth doesn't really achieve anything. The answer to the debate is actually to be found in logic and proper reasoning. Both sides oppose each other and both sides can't be right, both could be wrong but both can't be right. If one side is correct then the other is incorrect, however, the reason one side is incorrect is because their logic and reasoning is flawed. Until Christians decide to use valid methods of logic and reasoning these debates will go on. The sad thing is that some many have erroneous beliefs simply because they refuse to use the proper methods of logic and reasoning.

 

[GuessWho]

Someone here answer me this: How long should you try to convince someone before realizing that it may be better not to say more? Sometimes making your position profusely, could harden the position of the person you're trying to help, and so at times it's best to let them be, and those are the times when prayer that they receive guidance should be done, not more debating.

I believe people could have a very constructive debate if they would stop placing Saint Paul in the polemic of the Middle Age between catholics and protestants and simply let him talk in his own historical context. A lot of misunderstanding could be avoided and people might realize that they are actually believing the same thing, but use different ways to express it. For instance, one group says salvation by grace through faith, while others say salvation by grace through a living, expressed faith (in other words, faith that produces good works). In my opinion, both are trying to say the same thing.

 

[newbirth]

so when are you going to obey the gospel. And stop trying to make the gospel of grace a gospel of works.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[newbirth]

For brother and sister that believe work is required for salvation, I will ask a question.

Do you need to be sinless before you die to make your work enough?

on scale 1 - 10 On what level is you think enough to bring you to heaven?

for brothers and sisters who don't understand we are saved by grace through faith...faith without works is dead....works is required with faith...

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I know this has been a topic before but I want to bring it up again. Many times when works are mentioned people say that is works based and you cannot gain salvation by works. Well I think most people know that works does not save anyone and Jesus said in order to have salvation you must be born again, Paul says that we are save by grace through faith least any man boast. Now james says works makes faith perfect. Therefore you cannot have faith to be saved if there are no works that accomendate your faith.
James 2:14-26
John 3:7
Ephesians 2:8-9

Brother iwant2serve,
Could it be that James is speaking to those who have recently received the faith "of" our Lord Jesus Christ (notice it doesn't say faith "in" Jesus Christ but faith "of" Jesus Christ) when he speaks of works that come with the faith "of" our Lord Jesus Christ?

Ephesians 2:4
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Jackson123]

for brothers and sisters who don't understand we are saved by grace through faith...faith without works is dead....works is required with faith...

I think you forget about branch can't bear fruit of itself brother.

Good work will come after you as a branch abide to the vine.

You not going to abide to the vine unless you have a faith to the vine.

Real faith > cause abide to the vine, > produce salvation and good work/fruit.

 

[mailmandan]

He wants to say that whoever (whether Gentile or Jew) wants to be part of the New Covenant (renewed by God through the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Jesus Christ - the Gospel) he does not need to work works of righteousness (possess the Law, be circumcised or be of Jewish birth; these are unnecessary and insufficient), but he must believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah who made us all righteous before God. In order to enter in the new covenant family, one must believe and unite himself with the death and resurrection of Christ.

We could never be justified by the Law because none of us have perfectly obeyed the Law, including the moral aspect of the Law. You seem to believe that "works of righteousness" in Titus 3:5 pertains strictly to "works of the Law" but not good works, yet in Acts 10:35, Peter said - Acts 10:35 - But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Was Peter talking only about specific works of the Law there or good works done by believers? Certain people interpret Acts 10:35 to mean salvation by works, yet Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to then he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person simply because of his nationality. "Works righteousness" is the fruit of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works in connection with salvation are always the fruit of, not the root of, salvation. This verse is giving a description of a believer (Christian), not a prerequisite to become saved.

Ephesians 4:21-24New International Version (NIV)

21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self,which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

This is our new life in Christ.

In regard of salvation, Paul is clear. Salvation only because (or by) the grace incarnated in Jesus Christ. But one is saved IF he enters into the New Covenant, gives up his old self and renews his entire way of living. This new life starts with metanoia (changing of the mind) and MUST be continued on every little aspect of your life.

One is saved by grace through faith, which begins with repentance (changing of the mind) and the fruit of repentance (Acts 26:20) is performing deeds appropriate to repentance. Believers are new creations in Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

No. That was not my implication. My implication was that we must have a LIVING faith.
Edit: a faith that produces fruits.

If our faith is firmly rooted and established in Christ from the start (and not some shallow temporary belief that has no root) we have been made alive together with Christ by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-8 - LIVING faith) and will produce fruit. All genuine believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

So you understand that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works; but genuine faith is evidenced by good works?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Matthew 10:33
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

what do these passage have to do with my question? they say nothing about people working to earn salvation.

matt makes it clear people who have not denied God, and do many works for him will be sent to hell, Jesus himself telling them to depart. for he NEVER KNEW THEM (they were never saved)

so again I ask, when are you going to obey the gospel. and not your own perverted gospel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe people could have a very constructive debate if they would stop placing Saint Paul in the polemic of the Middle Age between catholics and protestants and simply let him talk in his own historical context. A lot of misunderstanding could be avoided and people might realize that they are actually believing the same thing, but use different ways to express it. For instance, one group says salvation by grace through faith, while others say salvation by grace through a living, expressed faith (in other words, faith that produces good works). In my opinion, both are trying to say the same thing.

how can they be saying the same thing?

one is saying we are saved by faith (living) and those who are saved will show changed life and works. show a love for God, and no longer look like the world. (faith only)

while the other is saying God will not save you until you prove yourself and do certain works (ie water baptism, being good and doing other things) and even then, salvation is not assured.

they are not the same, not even close.

 

[mailmandan]

so when are you going to obey the gospel. And stop trying to make the gospel of grace a gospel of works.

Amen! We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes/trusts in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of their salvation (Romans 1:16).