∂xƒ ≈ Windmills of your mind?

[BananaPie]

[video=youtube;haV2ZflrSMY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haV2ZflrSMY[/video]

The Windmills of Your Mind
Michael Legrand, Allan & Marilyn Bergman, 1968

Round like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turnin'
Running rings around the moon

Like a clock whose hands are sweepin'
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space

Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

Like a tunnel that you follow
To a tunnel of its own
Down a hollow to a cavern
Where the sun has never shone

Like a door that keeps revolving
In a half forgotten dream
Or the ripples from a pebble
Someone tosses in a stream

Like a clock whose hands are sweepin'
Past the minutes of its face
And the world is like an apple
Whirling silently in space

Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

Keys that jingle in your pocket
Words that jangle in your head
Why did summer go so quickly?
Was it something that you said?

Lovers walk along a shore
And leave their footprints in the sand
Is the sound of distant drumming
Just the fingers of your hand?

Pictures hangin' in a hallway
And the fragment of a song
Half remembered names and faces
But to whom do they belong?

When you knew that it was over
In the autumn of Good-Byes
For a moment you could not recall
The color of his eyes

Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel

As the images unwind
Like the circles that you find
In the windmills of your mind

 

[BananaPie]

Okay, the video was the intro.

The purpose of this thread is to constructively discuss our composure, demeanor and approach to mental shortcomings among fellow believers.

This thread is not about pointing out sin in others neither is the thread about judging others. I'd like to simply discuss mental discrepancies or mental ill among the saints, frankly, and how do we cope with them.

How do you talk to a Christian who is not really making any sense, and in the "mental" process, they are destroying themselves, their caregivers, their family and their friends.

 

[AbbeyJoy]

The song kinda reminds me of how our world is the same. Like a cycle of life.

 

[johnbragg]

[h=1][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Titus 2 New International Version (NIV)[/FONT][/h][h=3][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Doing Good for the Sake of the Gospel[/FONT][/h][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]2 You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.[/FONT]

 

[BananaPie]

As for "mental discrepancy," that's simply an umbrella for certain behaviors within the Church, like narcissism, egocentric, attention-seeker, bipolar, trauma, "woe-is-me" feed me comfort, arrogance, ADHD-off-meds, OCD-off-meds, rx drug abuse, etc.

Yet, the very nature of the mental illness is to grab and rely on the healthy mind of others rather than to break the illness by changing their behavior.

How then is mental illness fixed without costing you an arm and a leg and your sanity?

 

[Lynx]

Sometimes the best way to deal with an issue is to avoid it. Such is the case with most of the kinds of people you just mentioned.

And you left out gossips in that list...

 

[BananaPie]

Well, avoiding doesn't fix their problem nor ours, for we still have them mingling.

Here are the windmills of my mind:

1. Whose responsibility is it to not be a nuisance?
Is it your responsibility to "accept my problem," or is it your responsibility to make me aware that "Yo, you aint got not and them aint no bolts in your soup."
Or is it my responsibility to control my own problem that I not become a problem to the rest of the saints?

2. If the chemical imbalance of the brain can be treated with meds, why aren't these folks seizing opportunity to tame their behavior?

 

[Grace-Like-Rain]

This is a difficult topic to ponder. The Bible doesn't specifically talk about mental illnesses. Also, how much is "mental illness" and how much is just human sin? (Which the Bible does speak on in many places.)

Does the person know he/she has a mental illness? If they don't, is there a way to gently let them know without offending them? Do they seem to want to help themselves? If so, there are so many things one can do to help. Being a friend, loving them though their struggles, encouraging them toward healthy thinking, praying with them, and offering accountability are a few things I think can help. If they don't seem to want help, or are content with the way they are, then I'd ask myself whether there are "victims" to their behavior. If others are being harmed, deceived, or led astray by their illness, then intervention may be necessary.

With intervention, I'd want to approach them one-on-one to talk about what is happening and how it is effecting others. If the person denies that there is a problem or refuses to acknowledge what is happening, it might be wise to gather 2-3 people that the person respects to meet with them. If even this fails to reach the person, you move into the area of damage control. Which would, by necessity, including letting those being hurt/deceived know what is happening, and working with them to stop any enabling or further damage.

 

[BananaPie]

This is a difficult topic to ponder.
Indeed. It's a vexing dilemma the Church is dwindling to fix primarily due to hate-crime laws.

The Bible doesn't specifically talk about mental illnesses. Also, how much is "mental illness" and how much is just human sin? (Which the Bible does speak on in many places.) I like your train-of-thought there.

The Bible does speak plenty about humility, a quiet spirit, the ego, self-absorbed mind, a haughty mind, pride, etc.

For the sake of pictorial example, suppose Cinderella has a cousin named Faustine who is a Christian, but she's also egocentric: she craves attention from those in her Church.

Suppose other believers, Hansel & Gretel, gently point out the egocentric behavior to Faustine. What would cause the egocentric Faustine to respond bitterly in her FB? (Okay, I'm making this up as I type. ).
Is Faustine's bitterness prompted by a mental trauma (or whatever mental instability she claims to suffer), or is it due to an unwillingness to let go of the frenzy attention she craves?

The corollary to Faustine is what is the kindhearted-Christian-way to respond to Faustine without fueling her attention-seeking ego?

 

[BananaPie]

I'd ask myself whether there are "victims" to their behavior. If others are being harmed, deceived, or led astray by their illness, then intervention may be necessary.

I'll call that a corollary to The Windmills of Your Mind lyrics.

Okay, seriously. Indeed, GraceLikeRain, on the one hand, it is our Christian duty to,
a) keep the peace for as long as it is possible;
b) to esteem others as better then ourselves especially those in the household of God;
c) attend to the needs of others, for the Lord Himself came to serve.

On the other hand, up to what point are we contributing to the ego of a person by giving them the frenzy attention they crave?
Where does it stop?
When do we stop for the sake of holding our peace?

 

[BananaPie]

...And you left out gossips in that list...

Gossip is also a factor. The Bible has instructed all saints to abstain from gossip (Keep thy lips from speaking guile. Psalms 34:13) and (Let not corrupt speech proceed from your mouth. Ephesians 4:29).

How then do we cope with Faustine's ego without gossiping ourselves when other saints inquire "why you aint talkin' nothing to nobody"?

We cannot come out rude-N-coarse responding, "because I don't gossip!" The attitude is just as wrong as Faustine's ego, wouldn't you say?

 

[JesusLives]

I have avoided this thread most of the day as I did have a breakdown at 40 the diagnosis was severe depression. I did attempt suicide, but I know I had a mental breakdown because my hands were shaking so bad for months after the attempt and I kept having thoughts of suicide to the point I was afraid to be by myself. I cried for days after the attempt at the realization of what I had done and was on Zoloft for about 18 months and under a Doctors care for quite some time.

I read an article while waiting in the medical Doctors office about depression and made mention to him that I thought I was depressed and he basically ignored me. I gave a few other warning signs to people along the way all of which were ignored and it was not like I was trying to get attention I was really asking for help and truly being ignored.

I was frustrated and things were falling apart around me. At work they were trying to give me more responsibilities and I told them I was not comfortable with it but they just said you do such a good job you can handle it then proceeded to give me two additional bosses which made it three total and I didn't know who to prioritize in getting the workload done. Add to that moving my desk three times in three weeks which meant my phone was on one desk, computer on another desk, I don't know which boss needs what....and I am just trying to work here and be the competent employee that I know I can be.

Add the fact that I am 40 and going through hormonal changes due to early menopause with night sweats, a 15 year old daughter that hates me because of a live in boyfriend who is a player and cheating on me....I was a total mess and did I fail to mention that God was nowhere in my life as that was my choice at this particular time....So I was stressed, depressed, and ready to pull my hair out and hormonal all at the same time.

I became mechanical in getting things done, I started tying up things at work, finishing projects, giving things away, cleaning my house and preparing to die as I just couldn't take it anymore and I felt so alone and not worth getting up in the morning, hated life and didn't want to live it any more.

If a girlfriend hadn't called me the night I decided and was in the process of taking a boat load of pills with beer I would have succeeded but she realized I was not myself and called the police who came and Baker Acted me into a mental hospital for a few days. Long story short...I was afraid to be by myself after the attempt because suicidal thoughts just don't go away right away you still have them for a while and I was crying all the time. I didn't want to be around me much less anyone else... It took a long time with medication and Doctor visits to put my broken pieces back together.

Two years after the attempt my daughter said to me that she finally felt like she had her mom back. It was a long road to recovery. I just wish people had listened when I was reaching out for help like the medical Doctor first of all which was some time before I got to the bad part. Or the people at work when I told them I couldn't handle the extra load....I don't understand why no one was listening.... Just pay attention to people when they say they are depressed as some of us aren't just trying to get attention. Some are really reaching out for help.

It was 19 years ago in September since this suicide attempt and I have never wanted to do that again. I did learn some tools to help me if I should get depressed again which hasn't happened Thank God. Plus I have turned back to God and do rely on Him now. I thank Him that He saw fit to save my life and I just want to serve Him the best way I can now. But I really do understand what it is to be totally broken and come back. I Praise Him for repairing me.

 

[BananaPie]

Wow! What an amazingly Awesome God we have indeed!!

What a testimony you have, JesusLives, for the glory of God. I'm very content that you were actively seeking help, that you allow for sincere friend to seek help for you and that you followed with the healing process.

I don't see any egotistic behavior, praise the Lord.

 

[Roh_Chris]

BananaPie, I didn't understand your thread. I have two questions to understand -

In your first post you used the phrase 'Christian who is not really making any sense'. That could also mean people who talk rubbish. And these people need not be mentally ill. So are you referring to people who talk nonsense or mentally ill people who talk nonsense?

Secondly, are you talking about how we must deal with people who have mental illnesses? Or, how should people who have mental illnesses deal with themselves?

 

[BananaPie]

In your first post you used the phrase 'Christian who is not really making any sense'. Are you referring to people who talk nonsense or mentally ill people who talk nonsense?
Both.

Secondly, are you talking about how we must deal with people who have mental illnesses?
Yes. The discussion is about,

a) How do you cope with a "normal" Christian who is egocentric (he/she craves attention)?

b) How do you cope with a mentally unstable Christian --has been diagnosed with a mental problem-- who is egocentric and craves attention as her way to cope with the mental instability?

The attention crave is usually in the form of going about making all kinds of "friends" at church for as long as those "friends" give her attention.

The egocentric becomes feisty, bitter and may withdraw into depression when some "friends" halt the attention frenzy.

The egocentric then turns to her other "friends" to turn away from the "friends" withdrawing attention from her, making several Christians feel guilty for "being mean to woe-is-me." .

..and the attention-cycle reignites. Friends justifying themselves that they weren't being mean by giving egocentric even more attention.

How should people who have mental illnesses deal with themselves?

That's the million-dollar question. Usually rx meds tame the problem. What do you think?

 

[BananaPie]

In your first post you used the phrase 'Christian who is not really making any sense'. Are you referring to people who talk nonsense or mentally ill people who talk nonsense?
Both.

Secondly, are you talking about how we must deal with people who have mental illnesses?
Yes. The discussion is about,

a) How do you cope with a "normal" Christian who is egocentric (he/she craves attention)?

b) How do you cope with a mentally unstable Christian --has been diagnosed with a mental problem-- who is egocentric and craves attention as her way to cope with the mental instability?

The attention crave is usually in the form of going about making all kinds of "friends" at church for as long as those "friends" give her attention.

The egocentric becomes feisty, bitter and may withdraw into depression when some "friends" halt the attention frenzy.

The egocentric then turns to her other "friends" to turn away from the "friends" withdrawing attention from her, making several Christians feel guilty for "being mean to woe-is-me." .

..and the attention-cycle reignites. Friends justifying themselves that they weren't being mean by giving egocentric even more attention.

How should people who have mental illnesses deal with themselves?

That's the million-dollar question. Usually rx meds tame the problem. What do you think?

 

[kenthomas27]

You know, I was having this conversation with another CC member of late! The topic was "those who were touched". The word "touched" was used emblematic of an eccentric behavior or even something that could be labeled insane. I had remembered reading about a certain tribe of the Blackfoot Indians called the "Bloods" who would refer to a person being "touched" as "the wise one" or someone who had "extra" knowledge. One who had delved deeper into the dark world or into sin nature of mankind and exposed himself to darker things, darker concepts. You could consider that Eve was "touched" because of her original sin - that of rebellion of God. She was created with the ABILITY to rebel, but what was it that ENCOURAGED her to rebel? What mechanism was in place to allow her to even think of it? This is why you could say she was "touched" in this way because she had the ability to peer inside this darker world and elect to act on this rebellion, thus producing behavior that was completely foreign to Adam.

Now that we have further developed our sin nature, this "touched" behavior has developed further still. I think it probably requires even MORE exotic behaviors for us to even recognize someone "touched" in this way since we all routinely rebel against God. Regardless, I think all these behaviors are born of the same DARKNESS, and therefore, can be tempered by the same LIGHT - that is the Light of the Word, the Knowledge of God. I personally believe this is the ultimate "cure" for all "wise one's who have peered over darkness's edge".

There are the "touched" that I find the most terrifying. Those are souls cognizant of the Wisdom of God but possessed with a black heart. To varying degree all Christians are entrenched with this battle, but there are some who act upon the darkest of dark things and so so saddened by the Light as to cause all kinds of maladies. Modern science can deaden all this with drugs but I think the only true path is through our God of Israel.

 

[ChandlerFan]

I know that there are some places where the lines are blurred, but I think for the sake of avoiding confusion it's better not to relate mental illness and personality/character flaws. They are really two different kinds of people even though they both require love and care in addressing and interacting with them.

It's true that there is a spiritual element to mental illness, but it is very much a neurological/psychological issue. It saddens me that there are still people who believe that mental illness is primarily or entirely spiritual, and that people who deal with it must not be reading their Bible or praying enough. There is nothing wrong or shameful whatsoever about going to counseling (I personally believe every person in humanity can benefit from counseling and should participate in that at some point in their life) or taking medication. Of course there is concern about developing too much dependency on it, but medication can be huge in helping someone recover from a mental illness, or at least helping regulate it.

And I could be totally wrong about this, but I think that most people who deal with some type of neurological or mental illness (OCD, ADHD, bipolar, chronic depression, anxiety, etc.) actually are aware that they have that illness. For those of us who don't struggle with that, I think it can be easy for us to think that part of their illness is that they aren't able to see that something is wrong, or that the reason they have that illness (especially over a long period of time) is because they aren't addressing it or doing anything about it, but I really don't think that's the case the majority of the time. Some choose not to face it, but I think a lot of them do.
As Christians, the best thing we can do for people who are struggling in that way is to be a friend to them, but also have very firmly defined boundaries. I will openly admit that I struggle at times with setting up clear boundaries in my relationships with other people (perfectly mentally healthy people), so I have to be really intentional about putting those in place. That way you are able to develop a sustainable friendship with them and be an encouragement to them without winding up in a situation where the person is unhealthily dependent on you. It's also important to keep yourself in check and not allow yourself to react or overreact to overly hasty responses that you may receive from them at times. Reaction/overreaction is only going to make things more chaotic when what would really help them is stability.
And speaking of stability, it is true that people who struggle with mental illness may look to those who are more mentally/emotionally stable for support, but that's not a bad thing whatsoever. I don't think that means they are somehow avoiding having their illness treated. It actually allows them to have a frame of reference for what is healthy and what is not.
And as far as this topic goes, one thing I am absolutely sure about is that the church should be a safe place for people who have these struggles. It can be easy, for the sake of convenience, to avoid people that deal with these things, but that is neglecting our call as believers to "love your neighbor as yourself."

As far as people with character flaws go, I think this is one area where relationships is so important. If you have an active, ongoing friendship with someone where you have done life together, shared struggles, and celebrated joys and victories, they are going to be much more open to receiving loving correction from you. There is a time and a place for more straight-up and even harsh truth, and the only time that is going to helpful to someone is if they have a friendship with you where you have demonstrated your love for them by your past actions and they can trust what you're saying. It's still possible that they may not receive your correction well, but all you can do is continue to be a friend to them and show them love and hopefully they will see your true intentions and take it to heart eventually.

 

[MissCris]

I think now I'm a little lost with this whole thread, after reading through it...

Is it meant to be about how we, as Christians, deal with brothers and sisters with mental illnesses?
Is it about how we deal with sinful behaviors of our brothers and sisters?
Is it about a particular person with a particular behavioral pattern and how said person should be dealt with?

I would think in any case, we are to show love and compassion, while putting in place proper boundaries- that means lines we don't allow them to cross with us, and also lines we refuse to cross with them (losing our tempers or patience with them, shaming them, etc...).

I think it's important to treat people like they're people, and not any kind of sideshow or like they're special or different. Whether a person is mentally ill, or behaving a certain way...I don't think they ought to be singled out for any type of different treatment. If there's a problem they're causing, it should be addressed in the same way as any other problem caused by any other person- privately and directly and out of love.

Maybe I'm missing the whole point of the thread though...

 

[Ugly]

Seems to be lots of generalizations being made. And lumping people into categories that aren't really the same. Some of what i've seen here is sad to read and think that Christians believe it is right. As if this is a topic easily resolved.

Some people don't take meds because they don't have the financial capabilities. Some are aware that meds don't always work and sometimes exacerbate existing problems. And until you try it there's no way to know how you will be affected.
There is not a simple, quick solution.
And, really, some of this requires being in judgment over others. Unless you have a mental illness then you don't know what a person is feeling or going through, so to decide that it's a justification for their sin, to hide behind mental illness, is a judgment call most people don't have the right to make.
And the whole 'very nature of mental illness' comment is so way of base it's not even funny.