-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J
crossnote,
If he were still alive, I would ask Charles Hodge the same question that I am presenting to you; from the context, how can Israel mean the Jewish people when Paul never alluded to that. He clearly make a disclaimer at the beginning of the chapter.
Now, that might not seem like much to most who uses both terms synonymous, but when we read this.
We have to ask ourselves, why would Paul make that distinction that "as to the law," he was a Pharisee? What was a Pharisee?
If he were still alive, I would ask Charles Hodge the same question that I am presenting to you; from the context, how can Israel mean the Jewish people when Paul never alluded to that. He clearly make a disclaimer at the beginning of the chapter.
Now, that might not seem like much to most who uses both terms synonymous, but when we read this.
We have to ask ourselves, why would Paul make that distinction that "as to the law," he was a Pharisee? What was a Pharisee?
Paul includes himself if that is what you are asking. ..
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
E
You guys are STUCK on one aspect of the passage, why is this? Can you explain it?
What did paul say immediately after this?
why did he warn believing Gentiles not to be wise in their own opinion (which I see alot of in here) And tell us believing gentiles. That Israel was only BLINDED in part. And Only UNti Our (Gentile) Fullness is complete. Why would he give us this warning if it did not matter, That believing Israel and Gentile are the sons of Promise? That would make no sense.
WHy also did he say, AT THIS TIME something will happen to ALL Israel. For AT THAT time, a deliver will come, and they will repent, and ALL will be saved, as Jacobs sins are removed (daniel 9 is finally fulfilled) How come he said this future sense.
then finally, WHy did he say OF THESE PEOPLE, that they (as a nation) are our enemy, concerning the gospel (because of unbelief) yet loved because of Gods promise, because Gods election and GIFTS are irrevocable.
How come you guys can never explain this, but always want to be stuck in one part of the WHOLE passage? Again, can you explain it?
The meaning of that passage DOES NOT mean what you are trying to ascribe to it. The meaning that you are trying to give CONTRADICTS what Jesus and Paul both plainly say. Outside of that passage NO WHERE can you find that ALL PHYSICAL ISRAEL is saved. The OT clearly says it is a REMNANT that is saved. Both Paul and Jesus clearly say that NOT ALL OF PHYSICAL ISRAEL is Israel. Yes all of Israel will be saved but it is the ISRAEL that Jesus and Paul clearly say is Israel,but it is NOT ALL OF PHYSICAL ISRAEL.
E
No It does not. Because it is not a who is able to be saved, and who is not context. It is what is going to happen to Gods elect nation. Pauls people by birth. Is God done with them, or will he continue to keep his promise to them.
Well thats interesting. Paul used two old testament passages to prove it. I guess paul did not know what he was talking about right?
No, The old testament clearly says there will ALWAYS be a remnant saved. God will not forget his promises, and not cast them aside and forget about them, or their promises, he will never let the bloodline cease to exist. Why else would he keep saying I have a remnant? Did he say that about any other nation of people? No!
And you ignore the words "blind in part" You ignore the words "Until the time of the gentile is complete" and you ignore the part. THEN All Israel will be saved (speaking of Jacob, NOT believing gentiles) You ignore half the passage.
Yep it is the israel paul says it is.
Those blinded in part
Those who are our enemy concerning the gospel (because they rejected their messiah) yet beloved because of the promise to their fathers abraham Isaac and jacob
Those who are called JACOB, whih will be saved by their redeemer when he comes to zion to save them. (all future tense)
again, you ingore those comments. And you expect me to agree with you?
You continue to IGNORE the rest of scripture. Paul and Jesus BOTH make the distinction between the DESCENDENTS of Abraham and the CHILDREN of Abraham,seed of Abraham. Both Paul and Jesus make it so plain that NOT ALL OF ISRAEL IS of Israel. You can NOT pull one ISOLATED part of scripture to build a DOCTRINE.
E
you still refused to answer why paul made those comments about a nation of people called Jacob.
I am not ignoring what paul and jesus said about the nations blessed because of abraham, that is NOT the context here. the context here is what about the promise made to phsyical decendants, is God done with them as a nation or not. Paul says no. your ignoring that, and half of prophesy.
I am not ignoring what paul and jesus said about the nations blessed because of abraham, that is NOT the context here. the context here is what about the promise made to phsyical decendants, is God done with them as a nation or not. Paul says no. your ignoring that, and half of prophesy.
Again you do NOT get the distinction between the descendents of Abraham and the children of Abraham. Many of the children of Abraham ARE OF PHYSICAL ISRAEL.
You expect me to answer your questions but you HAVE REFUSED to answer this one or DANCED AROUND IT
Do Christian believers that are of PHYSICAL ISRAEL lose the land promise? YES OR NO?
You expect me to answer your questions but you HAVE REFUSED to answer this one or DANCED AROUND IT
Do Christian believers that are of PHYSICAL ISRAEL lose the land promise? YES OR NO?
J
Actually, I'm not one that looks at one part of Romans 11 but I did use that verse as a scriptural rebuttal to the comment that you posted.
But to answer your question, yes, you are right. We should not boast because Paul sated earlier that we should fear because if God removed a natural branch, what would he do to one that was once unnatural one. Also, you are correct in saying ALL Israel will be saved. But is that physical or spiritual? If you believe that ALL of physical Israel will be saved, then what do we say about Zechariah 13: 8-9
Also, you bring up the "blinded in part" but is that telling me that only part of Israel will be blinded, all of Israel will be blinded for a certain time (we know this isn't true), or what?
As to your finally part, Christ is the dividing factor, and that caused the animosity, but because of the promises made to their fathers ("They are beloved for their fathers sakes"), God will not just throw them away, but extend to them the same mercies that has been extended to us, who were once unbelievers.
But to answer your question, yes, you are right. We should not boast because Paul sated earlier that we should fear because if God removed a natural branch, what would he do to one that was once unnatural one. Also, you are correct in saying ALL Israel will be saved. But is that physical or spiritual? If you believe that ALL of physical Israel will be saved, then what do we say about Zechariah 13: 8-9
Also, you bring up the "blinded in part" but is that telling me that only part of Israel will be blinded, all of Israel will be blinded for a certain time (we know this isn't true), or what?
As to your finally part, Christ is the dividing factor, and that caused the animosity, but because of the promises made to their fathers ("They are beloved for their fathers sakes"), God will not just throw them away, but extend to them the same mercies that has been extended to us, who were once unbelievers.
We know in the end the Jewish people will come to know Christ - some will - those who don't til then if they don't know Christ, they die in their sins, and go where the unrighteous go. Mostly we support them because we support the return of Christ. A lot of jewish people actually hate Christians for this fact. "they are only good to us because they want Jesus to return" I watched an interview with a jewish man in israel.
E
I do get the distinction. Ninevah (although gentile) was a city of the children of abraham (in you shall all the nations be blessed) Because they heeded the warning of Jonah and recieved God. But they had NO PART in the promise to Jacob. It has always been that way, it was never any other way (even though the jews thought so, which is why paul had to come down on them so hard)
You do not get th epart we are talking of two separate events. Salvation of abraham, and a gift to Abraham Isaac and Jacobs children.
I have answered it so many times I am actually getting sick of it. You see it, but you do not comprehend it for some reason. I have just for at least the 4th or 5th time mentioned ninevah, and How God blessed them. and how salvation is given to all nations as children of ABRAHAM, But that is NOT what paul is discussing now is it?
Your joking right? I have answered this numerous times too. It is a NATIONAL PROMISE, not an individual promise. Did Daniel lose his promise because he was a believer? What was his answer? Or do you even remember it? (hint, read the beginning of daniel 9)
It is NOT an individual promise it is a NATIONAL PROMISE.
E
Well not sure why you would go there. when Paul used two OT passages to prove that it is National. When paul used the rest of romans 11 to show who they were (blinded in part, Hated because of the gospel at this time) But I will take a look.
zech 13 looks exactly like Israel (as a nation) has been since it was taken to babylon. That a remnant has always been saved, and the rest are blinded. So does that negate what the rest of the OT prophets say about God bringing his people back and restoring them, and paul saying they all will be saved, when God removed their blindness??
It says what Paul said.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
it is quite simple if we just read it for what it says, and not try to twist it to say something else.
The mystery was Israel was blinded in part. But then all will be saved.
But he is not talking about us, He is talking about them, And he is talking about a gift that God gave them, Which he never gave us. And he said they will ALL be saved, at which point, according to lev 26. They will be restored to their land.
zech 13 looks exactly like Israel (as a nation) has been since it was taken to babylon. That a remnant has always been saved, and the rest are blinded. So does that negate what the rest of the OT prophets say about God bringing his people back and restoring them, and paul saying they all will be saved, when God removed their blindness??
It says what Paul said.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel will be saved,[SUP][g][/SUP] as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[SUP][h][/SUP]
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
it is quite simple if we just read it for what it says, and not try to twist it to say something else.
The mystery was Israel was blinded in part. But then all will be saved.
But he is not talking about us, He is talking about them, And he is talking about a gift that God gave them, Which he never gave us. And he said they will ALL be saved, at which point, according to lev 26. They will be restored to their land.
"Do Christian believers that are of PHYSICAL ISRAEL lose the land promise? YES OR NO?"
Your question is a loaded one and also reflects your lack of understanding of the difference between the "church" and national Israel
All believers in Jesus Christ regardless of whether "Jew" or Gentile will gain immortality and live forever ruling with the Lord over His entire universe including His future millennial kingdom on the earth centered in the land of Israel
It is the future saved believing remnant part of mortal Israel that will inherit the land of Israel in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth
"Clear as mud. The whole nation, as a nation (all Israel) shall be saved. But just not all the people that constitute that nation ? On a national level, they will all be saved .... on an individual/personal level, they all won't ? A gem indeed"
Your mud "gem" is bogus and tells me that you do not have a comprehensive knowledge of the prophetic scriptures .... or you are purposely ignoring other related scriptures [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:29-31]
Not "all" of national Israel will be saved to live in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... only all of the believing of national Israel will be spared out of the coming time of Jabob's trouble, the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the Lord does not spare unbelievers regardless of whether they are of Israel or the nations of the Gentiles .... your premise here is bogus in the first place
Let me help you out of your fog [Daniel 9:24 - 27 [the "many" .... not all]; Zechariah 13:8-9]
Your question is a loaded one and also reflects your lack of understanding of the difference between the "church" and national Israel
All believers in Jesus Christ regardless of whether "Jew" or Gentile will gain immortality and live forever ruling with the Lord over His entire universe including His future millennial kingdom on the earth centered in the land of Israel
It is the future saved believing remnant part of mortal Israel that will inherit the land of Israel in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth
"Clear as mud. The whole nation, as a nation (all Israel) shall be saved. But just not all the people that constitute that nation ? On a national level, they will all be saved .... on an individual/personal level, they all won't ? A gem indeed"
Your mud "gem" is bogus and tells me that you do not have a comprehensive knowledge of the prophetic scriptures .... or you are purposely ignoring other related scriptures [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:29-31]
Not "all" of national Israel will be saved to live in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... only all of the believing of national Israel will be spared out of the coming time of Jabob's trouble, the 70th week decreed for Israel .... the Lord does not spare unbelievers regardless of whether they are of Israel or the nations of the Gentiles .... your premise here is bogus in the first place
Let me help you out of your fog [Daniel 9:24 - 27 [the "many" .... not all]; Zechariah 13:8-9]
E
There is no yes and no question.
NATIONAL PROMISE.. NOT INDUVIDUAL PROMISE.
I told you to read daniel. did you? Daniel believed, did he lose out on the promise? (and even if he did, it does not matter, he is an induvidual, It is NATIONAL not induvidual!
Dan 9:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, [SUP]5 [/SUP]we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. [SUP]7 [/SUP]O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You. [SUP]8 [/SUP]“O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. [SUP]9 [/SUP]To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. [SUP]10[/SUP]We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him
Was daniel a sinner? Did he sin and cause Israel to be taken out of the land?
Ir did daniel realise this was a national promise, and although he loved God, and obeyed him, AS A PEOPLE, he was part of them and suffered THEIR punishment according to lev 26?
NATIONAL PROMISE.. NOT INDUVIDUAL PROMISE.
I told you to read daniel. did you? Daniel believed, did he lose out on the promise? (and even if he did, it does not matter, he is an induvidual, It is NATIONAL not induvidual!
Dan 9:[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I prayed to the Lord my God, and made confession, and said, “O Lord, great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and mercy with those who love Him, and with those who keep His commandments, [SUP]5 [/SUP]we have sinned and committed iniquity, we have done wickedly and rebelled, even by departing from Your precepts and Your judgments. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Neither have we heeded Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings and our princes, to our fathers and all the people of the land. [SUP]7 [/SUP]O Lord, righteousness belongs to You, but to us shame of face, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those near and those far off in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of the unfaithfulness which they have committed against You. [SUP]8 [/SUP]“O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. [SUP]9 [/SUP]To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. [SUP]10[/SUP]We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him
Was daniel a sinner? Did he sin and cause Israel to be taken out of the land?
Ir did daniel realise this was a national promise, and although he loved God, and obeyed him, AS A PEOPLE, he was part of them and suffered THEIR punishment according to lev 26?