If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[SeaBass]

No, what I understand that you are blind to is the fact that the Philippians are CALLED saints in verse ONE chapter one and identified with DEACONS and BISHOPS as they are CHURCH members and CANNOT be church members unless they are already SAVED much less called SAINTS.....so again you twist scripture and the meaning of scripture and the verses I quote to teach your lies....good luck with your daddies Alexander and Satan......for both were false teachers, liars and twisted the word of God to fit their heretical doctrines....!

Not to mention that your twist of works of righteousness into works of merit is a joke and plain ignorant....a work of righteousness is exactly that...any work that can be considered RIGHT...wake up dude before you find yourself in a very hot location with no water!

How does their being called Saints change that one must WORK out his salvation?

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."



"Wherefore" Paul just showed in the previous verses how Christ obeyed His Father (vs 5-8), man must be obedient to God also.


"as ye have always obeyed" as the Romans in Rom 6:17,18 obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sin/justified/saved. Note also in Acts 16:12ff when Paul went to Phillipi, they obeyed by being baptized, verse 15.

"not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence" they were not to quit obeying in Paul's absence for Paul had not seen them in a few years.

"work out your own salvation"
work out - kätergä'zomī Present tense, middle deponent, imperative mood

According to AT Robertson - kätergä'zomī - (my emp)

Work out (katergazeste).Perfective use of kata (down) in composition, work on to the finish. This exhortation assumes human free agency in the carrying on the work of one's salvation.

It took obedient works for them to become saved and it will take CONTINUED obedient works for them continued to be saved until the end. Paul was commanding them to continue in working to be saved until the end, till they die, till they cross the finish line and salvation is fully achieved. One cannot become saved then quit this CONTINUED work and expect to be saved anyway.

This verse infers human free will. Paul does not say "work for" but "work out". One cannot earn or merit eternal life (Luke 17:10), yet man has duties and responsibilities in reference to the salvation given him by God (Romans 6:1 ff; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 2:14-15). The expression your own salvation reminds us that ultimately we have the final say-so over whether we will end up saved or lost. Our cooperation is needed. Barclay reminds us, “Without man"s co-operation, even God is helpless".
Dunagan's Commentary

The Christian has the duty, is commanded to run the race, 1 Cor 9:24; Heb 12:1. The Christian cannot quit this work of running and expect to obtain the incorruptible crown.

I like the above statement from the commentary "Without man"s co-operation, even God is helpless" to express the meaning of Paul here.

 

[SeaBass]

Yes. Who ultimately will remain lost if Christ is seeking them?

But what verse are you referring to that Christ said He lost not one?

 

[thecreationtutor]

It is man's duty to take the gospel to the lost world...

'I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.'

....God brings the growth of the planting and watering.

That doesn't answer my question though and that's funny - because that is the same response a Calvinist would give to going out and preaching the Gospel

 

[dcontroversal]

How does their being called Saints change that one must WORK out his salvation?

Phil 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."



"Wherefore" Paul just showed in the previous verses how Christ obeyed His Father (vs 5-8), man must be obedient to God also.


"as ye have always obeyed" as the Romans in Rom 6:17,18 obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine, then being freed from sin/justified/saved. Note also in Acts 16:12ff when Paul went to Phillipi, they obeyed by being baptized, verse 15.

"not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence" they were not to quit obeying in Paul's absence for Paul had not seen them in a few years.

"work out your own salvation"
work out - kätergä'zomī Present tense, middle deponent, imperative mood

According to AT Robertson - kätergä'zomī - (my emp)

Work out (katergazeste).Perfective use of kata (down) in composition, work on to the finish. This exhortation assumes human free agency in the carrying on the work of one's salvation.

It took obedient works for them to become saved and it will take CONTINUED obedient works for them continued to be saved until the end. Paul was commanding them to continue in working to be saved until the end, till they die, till they cross the finish line and salvation is fully achieved. One cannot become saved then quit this CONTINUED work and expect to be saved anyway.

This verse infers human free will. Paul does not say "work for" but "work out". One cannot earn or merit eternal life (Luke 17:10), yet man has duties and responsibilities in reference to the salvation given him by God (Romans 6:1 ff; Ephesians 2:10; Titus 2:14-15). The expression your own salvation reminds us that ultimately we have the final say-so over whether we will end up saved or lost. Our cooperation is needed. Barclay reminds us, “Without man"s co-operation, even God is helpless".
Dunagan's Commentary

The Christian has the duty, is commanded to run the race, 1 Cor 9:24; Heb 12:1. The Christian cannot quit this work of running and expect to obtain the incorruptible crown.

I like the above statement from the commentary "Without man"s co-operation, even God is helpless" to express the meaning of Paul here.

Again your twist of words based upon your bias Campbellite doctrine belies your ignorance....Just like Marine is a Marine and must be equipped to fight in combat a saved child of God is saved and must be fitted out and matured in the faith.....answer the question with a simple yes or no.....

Is an apple tree an apple tree from one to three years before it bears fruit?

A saved child of God is a saved child of God BEFORE they bear fruit......!

No matter how many verses you quote and or twist out of context it will not change the fact that a person is saved by GRACE through FAITH and nothing will ever change that fact....so keep twisting the truth to your own demise......!

 

[SeaBass]

Can you give honest evidence of your works that save you and that you keep them all without interruption bass?

I doubt that you can

And if not .... then what do you do?

Is one saved by grace through faith alone .... or do you have to be re-saved over and over again because in your law keep you will constantly fail .... guaranteed, you do and will .... try as you must

beleif, Jn 8:24
repentance, Lk 13:3,5
confession, Mt 10:32,33
baptism Mk 16:16

brings initial salvation, and...

faithful unto death Rev 2:10
overcoming keeping Chris't works Rev 2:26

...keep one saved.


No verse says one is saved by grace through faith alone. Many ADD the word "alone" to the verse.

1 Jn 1:7 as long as the Christian faithfully walks in the light ALL his sins are cleansed away by the blood of Christ and does not need to be saved over and over.

 

[SeaBass]

That doesn't answer my question though and that's funny - because that is the same response a Calvinist would give to going out and preaching the Gospel

You asked "Why pray for anyone to be saved, why would we want God to violate someone's will at all? Even in telling them the gospel, are we not trying to control them?"

I do not see how teaching the gospel to someone is violating their will or controlling them. They have the free will to listen or not. Nor do I hold anyone against their will to make them listen.

 

[SeaBass]

Again your twist of words based upon your bias Campbellite doctrine belies your ignorance....Just like Marine is a Marine and must be equipped to fight in combat a saved child of God is saved and must be fitted out and matured in the faith.....answer the question with a simple yes or no.....

Is an apple tree an apple tree from one to three years before it bears fruit?

A saved child of God is a saved child of God BEFORE they bear fruit......!

No matter how many verses you quote and or twist out of context it will not change the fact that a person is saved by GRACE through FAITH and nothing will ever change that fact....so keep twisting the truth to your own demise......!

I quoted AT Robertson a Baptist, not Campbell.

You have failed to explain why Paul would tell them to work out their salvation if works have nothing to do with salvation.

 

[VioletReigns]

.....and God's role is 100%

.....and God desires the wicked not to die but to repent/turn and live Eze 33:11

.....and God is willing all men come to repentance 2 Pet 3:9

.....and Christ died for every man Heb 2:9


.....then every man must be saved, not a single one lost. If not, why?

Yes, God did everything in His power to make a way for the whole world to be with Him forever. It's the Great Invitation. Jesus said, "I stand at the door and knock." We must believe Him enough to open the door and let Him come in.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, God did everything in His power to make a way for the whole world to be with Him forever. It's the Great Invitation. Jesus said, "I stand at the door and knock." We must believe Him enough to open the door and let Him come in.

Matthew 25 gives good examples in the parables that show only a faithful servant, believer in Him will inherit the kingdom of heaven, salvation......

 

[notuptome]

You have failed to explain why Paul would tell them to work out their salvation if works have nothing to do with salvation.

You cannot know the wonderful gift God has given if you do not take it out of the box and use it.

The more you study Gods word the more that is revealed of the great gift God has given to those who trust His Son for salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


The "working out' is the process by which an unregenerate human comes to the realization of the need to be saved and responds accordingly .... to make the choice to be saved by grace through faith alone

This first essential initial step is a very difficult struggle for most humans to grasp and comply

One cannot "work" for this, but must accept it by faith with no evidence of the same .... and there are no works involved

Faith first .... and good works will follow

 

[mailmandan]

That is the point..WORKS determine if one will be saved or not.

Good works demonstrate that one has been saved through faith (fruit of faith) and will receive eternal life and evil works (fruit of unbelief) demonstrate that one has not been saved through faith and will not receive eternal life. Everyone who does good is a description of ALL saved believers. Everyone who does evil is a description of ALL lost unbelievers. The context of Romans 2 relates to the judgment of God and when judgment is the subject, the stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on faith from which these works follow. Make no mistake, we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Faith only and what is in one's heart is not what Paul is talking about but what one DOES, his actions determines if he will be saved or not.

Faith only - per James - is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-20). Faith that trusts only in Christ for salvation is alive in Christ/created in Christ Jesus UNTO/FOR good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Not the same faith. One is alive and one is dead. The works or lack of works bears witness to this.

The contrasts Paul makes between saved and lost:
lost = obey unrighteousness, obey not the truth, does evil.
saved = obeys righteousness, obeys the truth, does good.

You just gave a description of those who are lost and those who are saved. Are those who obey righteousness, obey the truth, do good, accomplish this from a lost condition or a saved condition? Do lost unbelievers or saved believers obey righteousness, obey the truth, do good throughout their life?

Paul made being saved or lost about what a person DOES (obedience or lack thereof) not what a person thinks or feels (faith only)

Paul is giving a description of those who are saved and will receive eternal life and those who are lost and will not receive eternal life. Again, faith only - per James - is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not a living faith that is alive in Christ and results in obedience/doing good.

James said by works a man is justified.

Again, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

James is showing WORKS is the cause of the justification.

FALSE. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was by works "shown to be righteous."

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous" and it's the same with Abraham.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.

James did not say one is first justified then does works for that is a complete rewrite of what he said.

The harmony of Romans 4:2 and James 2:21 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would prove or show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. James is discussing the proof of faith (James 2:21), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

And Paul put obeying from the heart BEFORE freed from sin/justified.

We obey from the heart when we believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). For with the heart one believes unto righteousness (Romans 10:10) BEFORE any works of obedience that follow are accomplished. We are justified by faith (Romans 5:1). Good works follow justification/salvation and are the fruit of salvation but not the root of it.

It is a complete rewrite of the bible to say one is first justified for no particular reason then does works.

Faith is not no particular reason. The object of our faith is Christ's finished work of redemption, but that is not good enough for you so you turn to supplements "water and works" in a vain effort to help Jesus save you. How long will you refuse to repent and believe the gospel?

You posted "

One practices righteousness BECAUSE he is saved, not to become saved."

Amen!

Yet the bible says otherwise for again, 1 Jn 3:10 John says he that CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness CONTINUES to NOT be of God.

Where do you see the word CONTINUES TO NOT? Is that the Alexander Campbell translation? 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest/evident/obvious: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

The implication of John's words make it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be of God without ever first doing righteousness.

Just the opposite. John's words make it IMPOSSIBLE for one to practice righteousness unless he is a child of God. Children of the devil DO NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS. Your self righteous true colors are really showing.

Try as you might you can never make a righteous person out of one who continues to do unrighteousness.

I NEVER said that a righteous person continues to do unrighteousness. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:10). Does that sound like continues to do unrighteousness to you?

Contrary to faith only doctrine a man must first do righteous works to be righteous.

False. Contrary to works righteousness, man must first be accounted as righteous through faith in order to do righteous works. You have it backwards because you teach works salvation, which is no salvation at all.

Paul in Rom 2:6 did not have a category for one who believes but does no works for Paul did not have God rendering to every man according to unbelief or belief only but according to one's DEEDS - WORKS

There is no category for one who believes but does no works because that is an oxymoron. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already.. Contradiction to Romans 2:6? Good deeds show (are the demonstrative evidence) that one has been saved from the penalty of sin through faith (Justification) and will be saved from the presence of sin (Glorification). Evil deeds show (are the demonstrative evidence) that one has not been saved from the penalty of sin (Justification) and will not be saved from the presence of sin (Glorfication).

 

[newbirth]

I didn't avoid anything, but rather put it in it's proper order.....salvation is something that is present when Paul writes to SAVED, IMMERSED CHURCH MEMBERS of the Philippian CHURCH and tells the to FIT OUT their salvation that they presently already have.

Your blindness is amazing.....for sure and your ability to understand scriptures!

what happens if they don't work out their own salvation???seeing it depends on obedience
Philippians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Works are proof that one is saved.
No works, or only producing bad works shows lack of faith or no faith at all.
Jesus makes it clear that until one repents of their sins they are not saved, but still will parish. There are things that our Lord Jesus clearly states that those who believe in Him will do, and kind of works that will follow a believer.
Hince means that if those things He said are not part of your life, then you are not His and not saved. Rather you say you believe in Him or not.
Remember He said that not all that call Him Lord Lord will be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.

Actually fruit is - lots of people do good works but are dead spiritually

 

[thecreationtutor]

You asked "Why pray for anyone to be saved, why would we want God to violate someone's will at all? Even in telling them the gospel, are we not trying to control them?"

I do not see how teaching the gospel to someone is violating their will or controlling them. They have the free will to listen or not. Nor do I hold anyone against their will to make them listen.

Did you read the rest of what I posted - Just let them live in ignorance - then that is true freedom then isn't it - - I could even post scripture for you!

by telling them, are you not trying to change them? in fact is that not trying to change their will? But it's free, if you put a burden on them, that doesn't make their will free any more does it?

 

[dcontroversal]

I quoted AT Robertson a Baptist, not Campbell.

You have failed to explain why Paul would tell them to work out their salvation if works have nothing to do with salvation.

Dude you still fail to understand that works do not have anything to do with gaining salvation, but rather is evidence of salvation and until you figure that out you will remain in your sins trusting into yourself instead of the work of Christ.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Actually fruit is - lots of people do good works but are dead spiritually

Good fruit is produced through good works, you can not produce good fruit without the works.
Preaching the gospel, and bringing others to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, continuing in the good work to save yourself and others. Living in love.
Through good works, good fruit and obedience is produced.

Yes I know there are those that live a good life doing only good things, but do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Therefore they are not saved.

At the same time though if you say you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but do not repent of your sins then you are not saved either.

 

[royalscot]

i
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

 

[thecreationtutor]

Good fruit is produced through good works, you can not produce good fruit without the works.
Preaching the gospel, and bringing others to know Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, continuing in the good work to save yourself and others. Living in love.
Through good works, good fruit and obedience is produced.

Yes I know there are those that live a good life doing only good things, but do not believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Therefore they are not saved.

At the same time though if you say you believe in Jesus as your Lord and Savior, but do not repent of your sins then you are not saved either.

Fruit is by the Holy Spirit - you cannot produce fruit on your own.

 

[Ella85]

I really don't understand why it is so hard for some people to understand how salvation works.

When you decide to become a Christian what do you do???
Continue down the road that you were on???
Or make a consciences decision to do what is right by the Lord?

When one makes the decision to change their old sinful ways then all the rest will come naturally.

When someone is baptised it is a decision to do what is right in the eyes of the Lord and continue in their walk with Jesus.