What of the dinosaurs?

Billyd · Nov 18, 2014

My Christian Brothers and Sisters here. If you plan to argue a subject with a scientist, please throw your film clips, movies, magazine articles, and books that are not peer reviewed away. Also be aware that when you misquote, or misuse the Bible, that you will be laughed at. Unless you are thoroughly versed in the scriptures, and have a realistic ability to discuss the subject, you are wasting your time. Most scientists I know probably understand them better than you do. My experience in watching most of you argue with others, leads me to believe that most here would be better served by taking a vacation and doing an independent, non denominational intense study of the scriptures.

I love you all,
Billy

Straightshot · Nov 18, 2014

No question about this Billy

Even the most informed of the scriptures cannot sway the pied pipers of evolution

Dr_GS_Hurd · Nov 18, 2014

Billyd said:

Thank you for your kind words.

I know several scientists who were professed members of various faiths; Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus. I had medical students, and science students of those faiths as well. I have had good friends who were decent, kind people who believed in gods I doubt many of you here have even heard of existing. I also know some people, scientists or not, who are what I call "evangelical atheists."

There are some important recent books by Christians who are scientists regarding faith and science. Here are a few suggestions;

Ayala, Francisco (Biologist, former Roman Catholic priest)
2007 "Darwin’s Gift: To Science and Religion" (Washington DC: Joseph Henry Press- National Academies Press)

Collins, Francis S. (Biologist, Evangelical Protestant)
2006 "The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief" New York Free Press- Simon and Schuster

Ken Miller (Biologist, Roman Catholic)
2008 “Only a Theory” New York: Viking Press

Young, Davis A., Ralf F. Stearley (Geologists, Evangelical Protestants)
2008 "The Bible, Rocks and Time: Geological Evidence for the Age of the Earth" Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press

Dr_GS_Hurd · Nov 18, 2014

GodIsSalvation said:

This video was your testimony. You searched it, and you posted it. You falsely claimed it disproved radiometric dating.

Maybe next time you will be more careful.

GodIsSalvation · Nov 18, 2014

Dr_GS_Hurd said:

The video is the testimony of various figures within the scientific and academic communities that believe in an old earth. Truthfully, this video is a great example of the unreliability of radiometric dating and other various and unreliable old earther dating techniques. Once again I will posit the question: What make you of the random and varied results of the radiometric dates?

Perhaps next time you will be more careful about underwriting the sources as they come from people representing the very institutions that you yourself promote.

Cycel · Nov 18, 2014

Straightshot said:

Plenty of devout Christians accept the reality of evolution. Your comment dismisses all of them.

Dr_GS_Hurd · Nov 18, 2014

Straightshot said:

Carumba!

Even a reference to a popular story is irritating me tonight. The "Pied Piper" was contracted to rid the town of rats. He did. The conservative Town Leaders refused to pay, and the Piper took revenge.

Young Americans are leaving Christianity at an increasing rate. There are several published studies which indicate that they are leaving because the radical conservative domination is properly seen as racist, anti-science, and opposed to equal rights. I regretfully agree.

So, lie and lose your children.

Brainfreeze · Nov 18, 2014

These guys with phd's think it's a fraud.. and have recognized who their Lord and Savior is, hope you would join them Doc.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MHsQrAPSups

Word_Swordsman · Nov 18, 2014

Billyd said:

I worked alongside probably a few hundred scientists, university professors doing research, professionals not connected to academia. In all those years we performed our jobs, worked together, not once having need of considering any of the things we have discussed so far concerning evolution and such. None of us wanted to know what the other thought about speculative theories like evolution, as even politics separated friends, so we avoided that too. All of us had enough of that nonsense in college, free at last to just do the jobs assigned. Even academic researchers who teach evolution to freshmen avoid talking that in the field. Nobody that works hard wants to hear more of it. The Big Bang, evolution, descent of man, all non sequitur. We all knew there were elements of education that simply had to be taught. Then you get over that. Should. But here we have that coming around to challenge the Bible. I didn't witness that in 46 years of field work. But on the internet it rears its ugly head over and over....

What interests me is how honest examination of the same evidences shared by real scientists mostly deals with some specific empirical objective, but its the wildly speculative objectives that make the news. Most science research is quite boring. Being out in nature never was boring to me. But I do know there are highly qualified scientists that do handle the evidences of nature in highly intelligent opposition to those who prefer the conclusions that defy laws of physics. Evolution and Big Bang ignores such restraints. When such nonsense is used to disparage Christians and the word of God, it is not time to run. At least point to the professionals who do deal with it. As more scientists retire, more are speaking up after years of fear of these topics, or environments where speculation in any form is fruitless. What is allowed is real science and reasonable conclusions and real solutions.

So no, I disagree about tossing it all out. Spread it. I bought untold numbers of books from seculars, giving them to libraries when finished reading. The ones I kept were sacked up, oiled, and taken to the dump lest someone get hold of them and fall from faith. We have just seen how a video was castigated without actually viewing it, else no foot would have been inserted in mouth. Will we see an admission? I doubt that. It will more likely remain a secular bait and switch operation against the word of God, moving on to the next "deal".

When the topic comes up in places like this, Billy, it is wise to deal with it for the saek of the gullible who can believe what

Tintin · Nov 18, 2014

Dr_GS_Hurd said:

Honest studies would suggest that some of what you say is true, in why many are leaving the Church. But I would like to add many young Christians are living in sin (sleeping around, having sex before marriage, committing adultery etc.) and want to continue to that behaviour. And I may like to add many leave because they see a great disconnect between modern science, in regards to evolution, and the Bible. Some try to reconcile the two, some see that they don't gel. The result is many leave, others compromise and there's not far to fall once you allow evolution to influence your understanding of the Bible. Have you seen the state of Europe today? It used to have a rich Christian history, now it's a barren wasteland of faith. I believe adopting and allowing Darwin's teachings and others has opened this massive gateway to unbelief and let the Enemy roam around like a roaring lion, looking for whom he might devour. It's not the only reason but it's a big part of it. Be on your guard!

JackH · Nov 18, 2014

Brainfreeze said:

Everybody knows that. Think Geico. We know the Institute for Creation Research has Ph.D's who sign an oath to the effect that they won't say anything contrary to the ICR 6,000-year-old worldview before they get paid.

I would say, however, that the percentage of Ph.D. scientists who do not agree with ICR is in the vicinity of 99%.

Tintin · Nov 18, 2014

JackH said:

Rubbish to the first point. Biblical creationists get their Ph.Ds just like any other credible scientists. They do the hard yakka at university and keep on the down low or they do the hard yakka and then become Christians or biblical creationists.

JackH · Nov 18, 2014

Dr_GS_Hurd said:

Exactly.

Here is an interesting article related to this subject:

How Creationism Hurts Christian Colleges—And Their Students - The Daily Beast

Word_Swordsman · Nov 18, 2014

Cycel said:

I doubt even 1% of any religious group could write a small paragraph of what they think they know about it, and most that try at all wouldn't get it right. I know college grads who can't define evolution. High school teachers know their seniors don't really learn it, but just go through the hoops, then graduate. They might have been able to talk it some while still in the 7th grade, but it falls away quickly.

The Popes have frequently if not always believed stuff they shouldn't. They killed Christians for centuries, godly people that disagreed with the many RCC "reforms" that were rewrites of the gospel. I toss that in in case you are referring to that. We have an Admin thread stating the untrustworthy RCC's Vatican heresies. There is no possibility of evolution having "reality" because it can't be observed or proved. It exists in the distorted minds of atheists and the deceived. It is a religion of unbelief. But we understand some folks that accept such things as "real" might also be watching for Tinkerbell to pull the covers over them. I think it would be more accurate to say many people including Christians tolerate the beliefs of others in evolution as inevitable around them whether true or false. "It's just one of those things you have to live with", even though hardly anyone in real life hears a single discussion of that all their adult lives. A few have asked why I waste time doing this on the internet, but won't come here to see why. Most have time for sports and weather on their cellphones. It really doesn't matter to most, but it should if such ideas cause some to stumble out of faith. Rather, if they knew enough Bible I figure many would say "Well, that's what you're supposed to believe, but hey, it doesn't sit well with the Bible, does it?". That's what I did. The more I learn of the Bible, the more opposed to the religion of naturalism I become, without giving up on real science.

JackH · Nov 18, 2014

Tintin said:

Like Dr. Dino?

Here is his doctoral dissertation:

http://wlstorage.net/file/kent-hovind-doctoral-dissertation.pdf

The only thing he got right is the first sentence: "Hello, my name is Kent Hovind."

Word_Swordsman · Nov 18, 2014

Ah, interesting. I remember working the poll watching an army of youths come out to vote for the first time. They elected Obama. This time around hardly any showed up. They learn a lot quicker than adults. It might be true that some Christians among them get to college and come up against a fierce opposition to anything religious. I, my daughters, and many more all have experienced ridicule from instructors. Not from fellow students, but the teachers. My youngest daughter fell for the 'hand up if you love Jesus' thing they love to do. She put that hand up with a big smile. Those that did that were immediately mocked and told never to speak of such things there if they expect to succeed with them, even though they are the first to bring it up on class day #1. There is not a thing that can be done except quit, or comply and get through it. It isn't hat they depart from the faith, or quit the church, but they are persecuted into silence because they have not been prepared for such pressure. We pray for college-bound students, most parents totally oblivious to the dangers ahead. The students return home disappointed, but they are coming back. High school campuses around here have prayer back, all the school staff fully aware of their rights after several cases that brought in pro-bono attorneys such as from ACLJ pointing out their legal rights. There are now alternative textbooks available for public school teachers, alongside the usual materials, to at least introduce students to the debate issue of creation v evolution. Libraries can accept opposing materials that explain the debate issues quite well. Unfortunately teachers mostly can't find time to change the lesson plans, but they are no longer in fear of mentioning that topic. The kids already know. They are not typically interested in the issue either way.

I don't know of one family that has lost a child that was taught the Bible. By far most have normal lives, raise a family, continue their church traditions. I would agree to the notion that children raised in a liberal godless home would end up believing those three distortions of real life you listed. It would be tough to convince church kids that conservatives in general are anti science when many churches have conservative surgeons, and other science types in the congregations. In time most sensible folks will gain an understanding about all types of radicalism, and deal with that properly.

JackH · Nov 18, 2014

Brainfreeze said:

Here's a guy who explains it well Blain.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lSDb7iBTg70

I just have one question that Dr. Dino doesn't resolve.

This question is for all you YECs out there who have been posting on this thread.

I would really appreciate an answer, because this has been keeping me up at night.

So, in 2348 BC, Ussher's date for the Flood, we had two baby dinos or two eggs on the ark.

That turned into a whole bunch of dinosaurs of all sizes and shapes. At some point many of dinosaurs left for Montana, because that's where all these fossils have been found.

How exactly did all these dinosaurs get to Montana?

Covo · Nov 18, 2014

JackH said:

Brainfreeze said:

Dinosaur fossils, as well as fossils of all extinct species, are found throughout the world. Not just in Montana.

How did they get there? I seem to recall reading something about a global flood. Seems like water moving rapidly enough about to cover the highest mountain peak on earth within 40 days could easily move large creatures great distances. Also taking into account the potential of carcasses caught in currents for the 5 months proceeding and it becomes clear that some pretty basic science is already in place to explain this 'phenomenon.'

Dr_GS_Hurd · Nov 18, 2014

"Gary Parker"? "Thomas Kindall"? "Jobe Martin?" All are ICR hacks.

Interesting that none of them have any scientific publications I can find, but a lot of paid creationist presentations.

Dr_GS_Hurd · Nov 18, 2014

Evolutionary theory makes clear that we humans with a very long investment in children must secure a strong pair-bond AKA marriage. The Bible allows multiple wives which is a mating pattern common when conditions are excellent. With survival more an equal 50/50 proposition, a monogamist mating pattern is best for reproductive success. In hostile failing conditions, the polyandry mating pattern is more common.

We find that these mating patterns are all represented in human, non-human primate, and even birds.

What of the dinosaurs?

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