If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[newbirth]

No. Christ did not tell us to do evil.

People has taken Gods command and made an evil work of it.

Just like the jews did with circumcision. God commanded it, was that evil. yet paul condemned those trying to add it to a work of the gospel to save you.

this is your quote bro..

.If I get baptized to get saved then I am doing a work of evil.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

which makes works of the law not done in faith ...... works of the law....so there is works of faith and works of the law....

so all you proved is there is works of the law and works of faith

it really does not look good for you bro....

so works of the law done in faith are works of faith, even though they are works of the law.

Does not look good for you bro. you just made yourself look bad, and you can not even see it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is your quote bro..

And you are evil. Do you think you are that smart? You just exposed yourself twice to everyone in the room.

You skipped half of my post.

This was my post.

and by the way, human good is evil. It is self motivated.

If I get baptised because God said so, I am doing a work of righteousnes.

If I get baptized to get saved then I am doing a work of evil.

If I was you I would get off of here, go to bed, and get my thoughts in place. You making yourself look bad.. real bad.

 

[newbirth]

so works of the law done in faith are works of faith, even though they are works of the law.

Does not look good for you bro. you just made yourself look bad, and you can not even see it.

this is your quote bro....

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

lol.. And I proved you wrong, Because works of the law done in faith is the same as works done in faith.

You have yet to prove me wrong, so the only babble is you.

The pharisees did the works of the law to get saved, they were NOT WORKS OF FAITH. thats the part you do not get.

did you drink the ointment they gave you to rub?...something is not sitting right here...it seems you are responding to your own quotes...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

this is your quote bro....



did you drink the ointment they gave you to rub?...something is not sitting right here...it seems you are responding to your own quotes...

keep trying, your making a fool of yourself. a kindergardner would understand what I said.

Again, you need to go to bed. your making yourself look bAD

 

[oldthennew]

'WORKS'

WHETHER THEY ARE DONE IN LOVE FOR OUR FATHER, FAITH, OR FREE-WILL, BROTHERS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENECE?
IF THEY ARE DONE IN LOVE?

 

[kennethcadwell]

When you say must, you place people under law and not under grace. For you say their are laws which must be kept, or salvation is not received. Thus it is not of faith, it is in works, and you ability to keep those works. You have to trust self.


Wrong, I say must because they are part of a believers life and if they are not there then it shows you are not saved.



The problem with this is if we place any law (command) whether it be moral (mosaic) or religious (work of righteousness) we are depending on self and our good deeds to save us, when no amunt of good deeds we could ever do will remove one sin, let alone the millions of sins we have committed since birth. Your still placing a person under law (mosaic or not) and not under grace.


Wrong again, we do the righteous works out of love for our Lord. People who love the Lord their God with all heart, soul, and mind will obey and keep the moral values of God in their life.


Paul says not by works of righteousness (no matter which good deed it may be) we have done, by by his mercy, to say someone MUST do something to receive mercy removes mercy from the equation. It stops being mercy, and starts to be earned, or rewardede


You still confuse those of us who say things are done out of love, with trying to say we are earning salvation. To obey the greatest command is to keep and obey the Lords commands.



Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.



Yet when you go to get baptized to recieve salvation, your doing it for self gain. By your own defenition, it must be rejected. Because it is one of the things jesus will say depart for I never knew you.


No, we get baptized because of our Love and obedience to the Lord.



We agree, But again, this is no more dangerous than religion or legalism, placing laws or rules of things you claim MUST be done to be saved.

Modern day baptismal regenerationists are no better then Jews demanding circumcision (which was not even a work of the law. it was before the law, given to Abraham) Paul spoke against this legalism, we must speak against modern day legalism of being washed by water, not the word.


Yes Paul taught against legalism, but he did not teach against what the Lord said. Even Paul said through confession one is saved. Showing the need to keep and obey Jesus teaching.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.




Again I agree in part. But legalism states you have reached a point where your not a sinner, They are modern day pharisees, who refuse to see on your best day your not worthy of eternal life. If God showed you your best 24 hours and opened your eyes, you would be devestated, and horrified at the sin you are exposed to.

I know this to, and I know that we are never sin free while in the fleshly bodies. But there is a difference between a back slide or making a sin here or there, then that of one who continues day end and day out living in the same sins and never repenting of them and letting them control their life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

'WORKS'

WHETHER THEY ARE DONE IN LOVE FOR OUR FATHER, FAITH, OR FREE-WILL, BROTHERS, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENECE?
IF THEY ARE DONE IN LOVE?

If they are done in love, there is nothing wrong with that and are a outward showing to others your faith and love in the Lord. Jesus makes it known that it is an outward expression of one who has faith in Him, and if there is no outward showing of love to all through actions then the truth is not in them.

Works of the mosaic law, or any type of deed done to earn your way into heaven is wrong.

 

[newbirth]

And you are evil. Do you think you are that smart? You just exposed yourself twice to everyone in the room.

You skipped half of my post.

This was my post.

and by the way, human good is evil. It is self motivated.

If I get baptised because God said so, I am doing a work of righteousnes.

If I get baptized to get saved then I am doing a work of evil.

If I was you I would get off of here, go to bed, and get my thoughts in place. You making yourself look bad.. real bad.

Jesus said to believe and be baptised and we shall be saved...Mk16:16

the scripture admonish us to do good....you say good is evil

Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wrong, I say must because they are part of a believers life and if they are not there then it shows you are not saved.

So then you agree with me, They are not required. We do not work because we are trying to be saved, we work because we ARE saved..ie. they will happen, it is not an if, or you better,, it is they will.

Wrong again, we do the righteous works out of love for our Lord. People who love the Lord their God with all heart, soul, and mind will obey and keep the moral values of God in their life.

Then again you agree with me. They do not do it to get saved, they do it because they are saved. and since they have been saved, the love God.. so how could i be wrong?

You still confuse those of us who say things are done out of love, with trying to say we are earning salvation. To obey the greatest command is to keep and obey the Lords commands.

I am not confusing anything,

If I go to church because I love God. I am doing a work of righteousnes.

If I go to earn salvation (or not lose it) I am doing a work for self. and it is a work of evil. because it is of the flesh (self promoting) and not for God. Same goes with water baptism or any other work.

Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.

Which is what I have been saying all along.

No, we get baptized because of our Love and obedience to the Lord.

Which is why I got baptised. But if I am doing it to be saved, as you just agreed with, I am doing it for in your own words.


Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.

Yes Paul taught against legalism, but he did not teach against what the Lord said. Even Paul said through confession one is saved. Showing the need to keep and obey Jesus teaching.

Saying one must do a work to be saved is legalism, whether it be physical circumcision or physical baptism, there is no difference.

if we do it because we love God and out of appreciation for his gift, and faith in him, then it is not legalism. If we do it to be saved, it is legalism, and paul spoke against all forms of legalism.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

there you go. no work here. The heart has faith, the mouth calls on the name of the lord to be saved. God will not help you if you do not ask.

I know this to, and I know that we are never sin free while in the fleshly bodies. But there is a difference between a back slide or making a sin here or there, then that of one who continues day end and day out living in the same sins and never repenting of them and letting them control their life.

John says one born of God can not do this. so I am not sure what you problem is, One who is doing this can not be saved, or john is a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Jesus said to believe and be baptised and we shall be saved...Mk16:16

the scripture admonish us to do good....you say good is evil

Galatians 6:10
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

welcome to the ignore bin.

1. You claim people say stuff they have never said
2. People say stuff, and you said they did not
3. You post half of what they said and judge them, when if you posted it all, you could not say a word against them (this is called being a deciever, which is sin)
4. You refuse to answer any questions, but continue to judge and demand people answer yours.

You and sea bass can enjoy yourselves.

for everyone else. if we would just ignore these people. they would stop spreading their lies and decietful half truths.

 

[prove-all]

and by the way, human good is evil. It is self motivated.

.

you must mean

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

-the only fix

​

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in (my statutes),
and ye shall keep (my judgments), and do them.

 

[newbirth]

welcome to the ignore bin.

1. You claim people say stuff they have never said
2. People say stuff, and you said they did not
3. You post half of what they said and judge them, when if you posted it all, you could not say a word against them (this is called being a deciever, which is sin)
4. You refuse to answer any questions, but continue to judge and demand people answer yours.

You and sea bass can enjoy yourselves.

for everyone else. if we would just ignore these people. they would stop spreading their lies and decietful half truths.

take the time to reread the posts and see your folly

 

[kennethcadwell]

So then you agree with me, They are not required. We do not work because we are trying to be saved, we work because we ARE saved..ie. they will happen, it is not an if, or you better,, it is they will.

Then again you agree with me. They do not do it to get saved, they do it because they are saved. and since they have been saved, the love God.. so how could i be wrong?




I am not confusing anything,

If I go to church because I love God. I am doing a work of righteousnes.

If I go to earn salvation (or not lose it) I am doing a work for self. and it is a work of evil. because it is of the flesh (self promoting) and not for God. Same goes with water baptism or any other work.



Which is what I have been saying all along.


Which is why I got baptised. But if I am doing it to be saved, as you just agreed with, I am doing it for in your own words.


Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.

Saying one must do a work to be saved is legalism, whether it be physical circumcision or physical baptism, there is no difference.

if we do it because we love God and out of appreciation for his gift, and faith in him, then it is not legalism. If we do it to be saved, it is legalism, and paul spoke against all forms of legalism.



there you go. no work here. The heart has faith, the mouth calls on the name of the lord to be saved. God will not help you if you do not ask.




John says one born of God can not do this. so I am not sure what you problem is, One who is doing this can not be saved, or john is a liar.

Yes I have not once said we have to earn salvation. I have always stated these works of love are a must in a believers life because they show that one is saved, and with out these outer works of love the scriptures make it evident that the person who lacks these are not saved.

You will want to, and will do these things out of love for the Lord our God.

The reason we don't see eye to eye is because you keep saying not required, but the bible makes it clear that they are part of a believers life and without them one is not a true believer. So they are needed in ones life to show they are saved, and faith and love drives those actions.
The confession that Paul is referring to is the same the Lord said, that to profess your faith openly to others and not deny Him before others. This is a righteous work in the faith, and the reason for this is because so many will commit to saying they trust and love the Lord, but when it comes to hard decision one faces will they keep that faith or deny Him.

Examples:

Just like in " Gods not dead " movie will you be the one who quickly signs the paper just to stay away from a debate, or putting your schooling at risk, or would you stand up for the Lord and refuse to sign it ?

or

If somebody was to come into your work, home, or wherever you are and point a gun at you and tell you to denounce Jesus or die. Would you be quick to denounce Him to live longer, or would you refuse to deny Him and be shot and killed ?


I have ran across a lot of who would quickly deny Him, and say I can just ask for forgiveness later and He will forgive me.
I have a real issue with that because the Lord says not to deny Him, and not to hide your faith. I would be proud to die for my faith.

 

[prove-all]

Christians know how to fight
But they generally fight each other
Each one claims he is right
While treading down his brother

We stand up and cry,
"Heretics, heretics, all around"
"If you don't believe as I,"
"God will drive you into the ground!"

We shout, with swords for all to see
"I have the only real truth!
So follow me!
As we strike down those who disagree"

What is the gain
When we hate others
How will Christ's love reign
If we forsake one another?

Disagree
But do not grow hateful
Seek harmony
As much as you are able

Not everyone is a wolf in disguise
So be careful what you say
Do not give into Satan's lies
You will be accountable for your words one day

Wesley and Whitfield greatly disagreed
Often times, they were at a loss
But they saw mankind's true need
And preached the grace of the cross

Blessed is the one
Who seeks peace with his neighbor
For he shall see God's Son
When he rests from his labor

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your right, When you are doing it to be saved, your doing it for self. for self gain. When you do anything in order to recieve something, your doing it for self gain.

So then you agree, water baptism is not required for salvation. If it is, we are teaching legalism.

Yes I have not once said we have to earn salvation. I have always stated these works of love are a must in a believers life because they show that one is saved, and with out these outer works of love the scriptures make it evident that the person who lacks these are not saved.

where we have an issue is you say required. when you say something is required. you are making a law out of it. If baptism is required, in order to receive something, then it is earningn something, it is not done out of love, it is done out of fear. ie....I better do this, because if I do not. I will not get to heaven.

A non believer who has no faith in God at all will not get baptized or do any good deed. It is not to prove they do not have faith, it is BECAUSE they have no faith.

the problem is we have people getting baptised and doing all these good works. who look like they have faith in God, but they are decievers or deceived themselves. because they are doing it to gain (or not lose which in reality is the same difference) salvation.

You will want to, and will do these things out of love for the Lord our God.

You will also have the power of God to understand why he said to do it, and enable us to do it.

The reason we don't see eye to eye is because you keep saying not required, but the bible makes it clear that they are part of a believers life and without them one is not a true believer. So they are needed in ones life to show they are saved, and faith and love drives those actions.

You looking at this from mans perspective, not Gods.

God does not need us to do good works to prove our faith, he knows our heart before we do one good deed in his name.

Again, when you add required to it, You add works.

The confession that Paul is referring to is the same the Lord said, that to profess your faith openly to others and not deny Him before others. This is a righteous work in the faith, and the reason for this is because so many will commit to saying they trust and love the Lord, but when it comes to hard decision one faces will they keep that faith or deny Him.

Examples:

Just like in " Gods not dead " movie will you be the one who quickly signs the paper just to stay away from a debate, or putting your schooling at risk, or would you stand up for the Lord and refuse to sign it ?

or

If somebody was to come into your work, home, or wherever you are and point a gun at you and tell you to denounce Jesus or die. Would you be quick to denounce Him to live longer, or would you refuse to deny Him and be shot and killed ?


I have ran across a lot of who would quickly deny Him, and say I can just ask for forgiveness later and He will forgive me.
I have a real issue with that because the Lord says not to deny Him, and not to hide your faith. I would be proud to die for my faith.

Peter denied Christ three times.

he never lost salvation

Jesus never denied him before men

Jesus never chastened him for his sin

Denying god is denying the gospel. Peter was scared to death, and in his fear, he did something to preserve self. and in doing so sinned against God. Jesus paid for that sin, That why Jesus mever condemned him.

 

[newbirth]

welcome to the ignore bin.

1. You claim people say stuff they have never said
2. People say stuff, and you said they did not
3. You post half of what they said and judge them, when if you posted it all, you could not say a word against them (this is called being a deciever, which is sin)
4. You refuse to answer any questions, but continue to judge and demand people answer yours.

You and sea bass can enjoy yourselves.

for everyone else. if we would just ignore these people. they would stop spreading their lies and decietful half truths.

you cannot deal with the truth bro ...the true word have you hiding in the dark ...come out to the light...

 

[kennethcadwell]

So then you agree, water baptism is not required for salvation. If it is, we are teaching legalism.



where we have an issue is you say required. when you say something is required. you are making a law out of it. If baptism is required, in order to receive something, then it is earningn something, it is not done out of love, it is done out of fear. ie....I better do this, because if I do not. I will not get to heaven.

A non believer who has no faith in God at all will not get baptized or do any good deed. It is not to prove they do not have faith, it is BECAUSE they have no faith.

the problem is we have people getting baptised and doing all these good works. who look like they have faith in God, but they are decievers or deceived themselves. because they are doing it to gain (or not lose which in reality is the same difference) salvation.


You will also have the power of God to understand why he said to do it, and enable us to do it.



You looking at this from mans perspective, not Gods.

God does not need us to do good works to prove our faith, he knows our heart before we do one good deed in his name.

Again, when you add required to it, You add works.


Peter denied Christ three times.

he never lost salvation

Jesus never denied him before men

Jesus never chastened him for his sin

Denying god is denying the gospel. Peter was scared to death, and in his fear, he did something to preserve self. and in doing so sinned against God. Jesus paid for that sin, That why Jesus mever condemned him.

All I will say about baptism is did Jesus command it in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, and did Peter reiterate it ?

You say I look at things from man's perspective, not God's. But the thing is I see it from the Lord Jesus perspective which is why I always post and quote what He said, and then post and quote what the Apostles said that supports this. So that those who like to go by the epistles more then Jesus own words see how they teach the same.


If a person walks in hatred, and not love are they saved ?

If a person does not repent of sins, or confess the Lord to others are they saved ?

If a person has an uncaring heart toward others are they saved ?

I can tell you the answer is no on all three questions.


Peter did deny Christ three times, but he came back to the Lord in repentance. Still does not make it proper to deny Him in the first place. That is the difference to, is that he came back to the Lord. If he would have denied the Lord and continued the rest of his life denying the Lord he would not have had salvation.

Denying God is not just denying the gospel, you can also deny Him by the works you do;

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


Their works showed them to be disobedient, and abominable, which means against God. If they do any good works they mean nothing because of the true nature of their heart is not for God.

 

[oldthennew]

FAIHT is a bout LOVE,
for LOVE triggers FAITH.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All I will say about baptism is did Jesus command it in Matthew 28 and Mark 16, and did Peter reiterate it ?

Did God not command circumcision, Taking communion, Obeying his commands. Not forsaking the assembling together, feed the poor. Be a light to the world.

God commanded many things, But if we ad them as a prerequisite for salvation, in any form, it is legalism.

You say I look at things from man's perspective, not God's. But the thing is I see it from the Lord Jesus perspective which is why I always post and quote what He said, and then post and quote what the Apostles said that supports this. So that those who like to go by the epistles more then Jesus own words see how they teach the same.

The pharisees quoted alot of scripture also. Just because you quote scripture does not mean your right, anyone can do this, don't you agree?

I asked you if God needed proof our faith is real. why did you not answer that? that was your excuse for saying it is required was it not?

If a person walks in hatred, and not love are they saved ?

If a person does not repent of sins, or confess the Lord to others are they saved ?

If a person has an uncaring heart toward others are they saved ?

I can tell you the answer is no on all three questions.

So now your judge jury and executioner? Who gives you the right to judge anyone? your using broad examples here. I can be a baby christian and have an uncaring heart for muslims because they killed my parents on 9/11. Does that mean I am not saved? or does it mean I still have to learn the love of God and grow in him.

Peter did deny Christ three times, but he came back to the Lord in repentance. Still does not make it proper to deny Him in the first place. That is the difference to, is that he came back to the Lord. If he would have denied the Lord and continued the rest of his life denying the Lord he would not have had salvation.

He did? where do we see him come to the lord i repentance? Where did he confess to jesus he was wrong? Are you not assuming there?

Denying God is not just denying the gospel, you can also deny Him by the works you do;

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

The key word here is EVERY. There is no good whatsoever in these people. Yes they deny God and the gospel. they do not even know God. and never have.

Their works showed them to be disobedient, and abominable, which means against God. If they do any good works they mean nothing because of the true nature of their heart is not for God.

again the key word is every, they will not do good works. unless they repent and recieve jesus as their savior. they are dead to Christ, and because of it, can not do good works. every thought of their is evil. just like ours was before we came to Christ.