If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[mailmandan]

Peter's hearers in Acts 2 were lost/unrighteous. They heard Peter preach the gospel and believed (faith comes by hearing Rom 10:17) and asked what shall we do.

Their belief at that point was only "mental assent" that Jesus was the Messiah and that they were guilty of crucifying Him. That is not saving belief yet. They still lacked "trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation." They still needed to repent "change their minds" about their need for Christ to save them and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. In verse 40, they heard more from Peter and in verse 41, they gladly received his word, repented and believed the gospel, then were afterwards water baptized.

They were commanded to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. They were was still lost/unrighteous when they believed. Still lost/unrighteous when they repented. Still lost/unrighteous until after they were baptized.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical.

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. 47 Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" *What happened to baptism in verse 43?

Acts 11:17 - If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we were baptized? NO when we first kept all of His statutes and did what was right? NO - when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) who was I that I could withstand God?" When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 15:8,9 - So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. *What happened to baptism?

Eze 18:27 "Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive."

Doing what is lawful and right is descriptive of a righteous man who is saved and will receive the end of his faith--the salvation of his soul. Just as everyone who does good (Romans 2:8) is descriptive of a righteous man who is saved and will receive eternal life. Where did Ezekiel mention baptism and where did Peter and Paul mention doing what is lawful and right AFTER faith BEFORE becoming saved?

The question I asked is how can a man save his own soul? You did not answer that but just asked me more questions. He saves his own soul by doing GOD's righteousness.

Not by works is your answer. Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, (for you it's water and works) have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES.

As Peter told his listeners to save yourselves by obeying God in repenting and being baptized. Doing nothing/faith only saves no one.

Be saved from this perverse generation does not equate to save yourself by water and works. Did baptism precede or FOLLOW believing, receiving the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues in Acts 10:43-47? So much for your watered down gospel. Do nothing - faith only - per James - equates to an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, that's why it does nothing. Faith that trusts in CHRIST ALONE for salvation is a living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10) and does something because it's alive, not to become alive. You have it backwards.

Eph 2:8 "Not of works" refer to works of merit and does not refer to doing God's obedience.

Any works that we would accomplish and try to "add" to salvation through faith in Christ would be works of merit. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not on the merits of our works.

Just saw from Ezekiel the wicked must FIRST do what is lawful and right THEN he saves his soul alive. Cannot eve be saved without doing GOD'S righteousness.

Doing what is lawful and right is descriptive of a righteous man whose soul will be saved alive. Did Peter add "do what is lawful and right" after one believes in Him before one receives remission of sins? NO. Only those who are saved and righteous do God's righteousness/practice righteousness. You have the wicked man doing God's righteousness in order to be saved by works. Your perverted gospel has been exposed again!

 

[SarahM777]

That is what I explained to you in my last post. “If he trusts in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. This is describing a righteousness which is by the law rather than that which is by faith. Yes, big difference between one doing his OWN righteousness and submitting to God's righteousness. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. NO WATER AND WORKS SALVATION HERE. BELIEVES.

But on the other hand are not works and obedience parts of a saving faith? Yes the root is faith,without faith it is impossible to please God,but if that faith is not doing those things is it a saving faith? Can one really strip out those things that come out of a saving faith?

 

[SarahM777]

Acts 3:19 - Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord. *What happened to baptism?

Be careful trying to use Acts 3 as a proof text.

Acts 3

3 One day Peter and John were going up to the temple at the time of prayer—at three in the afternoon. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Now a man who was lame from birth was being carried to the temple gate called Beautiful, where he was put every day to beg from those going into the temple courts. [SUP]3 [/SUP]When he saw Peter and John about to enter, he asked them for money. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Peter looked straight at him, as did John. Then Peter said, “Look at us!” [SUP]5 [/SUP]So the man gave them his attention, expecting to get something from them.

The beginning of Acts 3 tells us that Peter and John at the hour of Prayer.

Acts 4 is a CONTINUATION of that same time frame.

Acts 4


4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.

Peter and John were arrested AS THEY WERE STILL SPEAKING. Does that mean that later the people that they spoke to were not baptized? Or is it that we are just not told?

 

[notuptome]

But on the other hand are not works and obedience parts of a saving faith? Yes the root is faith,without faith it is impossible to please God,but if that faith is not doing those things is it a saving faith? Can one really strip out those things that come out of a saving faith?

The secondary effect is sanctification where works are evidenced. Only God knows if a soul accepted Christ or just feigned acceptance. Works are a testimony for men to see for God sees the heart which is the unimpeachable evidence.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

when you see you made a mistake in quoting, is it to hard to correct it? It is hard to respond when yuo have to cut and past everything that is inside a quote.

Wrong, for we still are circumcised but the difference is the circumcision in the new covenant is of the heart. Shedding of the old sinful nature, and living a loving faithful nature. And even Jesus says those who do these things have eternal life.
This is not legalism, it is what the Lord Jesus said.

Circumcision never saved anyone, even in the OT. To say I am wrong is to ignore the OT commands, and to say that it actually did save them.
Yes jesus said to do them, but if we do them to BE SAVED, it is legalism, You even admitted this yourself. now your backstepping just because it is baptism?

The Pharisees were wrong because they corrupted the scriptures by using them for personal gain, and they added to the things people need to do. Just like the Catholic church does.

Ah but how is that any different from taking baptism, which is a lovely wonderful gift given to us by God to proffess jesus before men, and a teaching aid to show what God did for and to us, and add it to the gospel. and any other work which people say are REQUIRED for one to be saved.

The rules may be different, but the teaching is the same, the same old legalistic gospel of works.

I did not answer because God does not need it because He knows our heart, but the reason He our Lord said they need to be evident is for the presence of others. We are to have that outward expression to show God's love through us, so that others will be drawn and come to love Him to.

So then you agree it is not a pre-requisite to be saved, it is those who ARE SAVED and love and appreciate what God did for them acting on those things in the power of God.

If God does not need us to prove we have real faith, then why does he have to wait till we do one, or some or how ever many works you guys say are required to say, ok, his faith is real. Why can he just save us based on his KNOWLEDGE we will do those things (or is God not all knowing? that is a scary thought.

I am not judging anybody which is why my examples were board, and do not speak of anybody directly. Hatred, anger, uncaring hearts are not the way of a believer. If you have this in your heart then they are areas you need to still work on, and start to forgive those that have wronged you. Because once again the Lord says if you don't forgive others their sins, He will not forgive you of yours. Yours sins have to be forgiven to have eternal life.

And you say your not judging? You judged them by saying they are not saved. A person deep deep in any sin is not going to be healed over night, it takes time, and teaching, and learning. The corinthian church still had to be fed milk long after paul started their church, Yet paul still called them brothers and sisters in christ, even though they still had deep deep sin issues they needed to take care of.

No I am not assuming. If Peter never repented then he would not have continued to lead the church and carry out the Lords will, and through this he even taught exactly what the Lord told him. To obey all that was command, this included baptism.

1. Peter knew he did wrong the moment he did it, He did not have to repent, You can not repent of something YOU ALREADY know is a sin. why do people want to take a word which means one thing, and make it mean something else.
2. Jesus encouraged peter by asking him 3 times if he loved him, Even getting Peter alittle upset. That is how Jesus deals with our sin, He proves we are forgiven, so we can go out and do what Peter did.
3. Peter taught much much more than baptism, there are far more things we need to do and learn that just baptism. you guys put baptism up on a pedestal it should not be on, just like the jews placed circumcision on that pedestal.

This is false to say that unless somebody knows God they can not do any good works.

Then you do not know the word of God

There are non righteous, no not one, for all have sinned and fall short.

I know plenty of people that do good deeds ( works ) for others, being charitable, feeding the poor and hungry, clothing them and giving them a roof over their heads for the night, and so on. They however still refuse to believe in God or the Lord Jesus.

God calls these works bloody or filthy rags, they are evil works. self motivated, self righteous works. They are not good deeds, to think they are is not to know what sin really is.

They do plenty of good deeds, but are not saved do to they don't believe in the Lord our God.

Non righteous, no not one, I will trust what God says, and not trust what man thinks.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think gratefull is trying to say that they dont do the good deeds that please God... they do the filthy rags kinda stuff.
edit: Maybe I am mistaken.

No your right. They are not done to help and serve others, the internal motivation is wrong, A christian can do a good deed for the wrong attitude or motivation, and it would be sin.

Everythign a person in the world does is for self. in one way or another. which is called human good, or human righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The difference is like I have said before is are you doing the good deeds for self praise, expecting something in return, or doing it to gain something.
Or are you doing the good deeds out of love for the Lord our God.

That would be human good, or in Gods eyes, filthy rags, or in reality, sin. Evil deeds.

The good deeds need to be done out of love for God, not for self.

Or the love of others, Love your neighbor as (in reality above) yourself

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I stopped there whom did Jesus baptize?

You keep saying our and I, it's not about us and I, it's about Him and our faith in Him.

He baptized me, As john said, he will baptize with the HS and fire.

He baptised me with the HS.

If Jesus does not baptise you (baptism of the Holy Spirit) your not saved. your still dead in your sin.

 

[SarahM777]

Abel did not do any work. the spotless lamb did the work, He died in abel's place.

If Abel did not do any work then who got the firewood,selected the lamb to be sacrificed,possibly built an altar,and then kill the lamb? Did God do all that for Abel or did the lamb do it? Was all the work done for Abel and he sat around doing nothing? (I have never heard of a lamb committing suicide before,but you never know)

That is NOT to say that the lamb did not die in Abel's place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Abel did not do any work then who got the firewood,selected the lamb to be sacrificed,possibly built an altar,and then kill the lamb? Did God do all that for Abel or did the lamb do it? Was all the work done for Abel and he sat around doing nothing? (I have never heard of a lamb committing suicide before,but you never know)

That is NOT to say that the lamb did not die in Abel's place.

did any of those things save him?

Was the focus on selecting the firewoood, building an alar and the other stuff.

or was the focus on the innocent, spotless lamb spilling his blood.

 

[SarahM777]

did any of those things save him?

Was the focus on selecting the firewoood, building an alar and the other stuff.

or was the focus on the innocent, spotless lamb spilling his blood.

If Abel did not step out in faith and DO those things would the lamb have even been sacrificed?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If Abel did not step out in faith and DO those things would the lamb have even been sacrificed?

No.

But was it not faith that caused him to take the first step in the first place?

So what saved him, his faith which caused him to work or the work itself?

 

[hopesprings]

we are saved by grace through faith ...and faith without works is dead ...

Faith produces works. it is inevitable.
We are not saved BY our works....if we were than Christ died in vain

 

[SarahM777]

No.

But was it not faith that caused him to take the first step in the first place?

So what saved him, his faith which caused him to work or the work itself?

I never it was the work itself. Just as I said before FAITH is at the root. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. One can not even repent and have it be pleasing to God WITHOUT FAITH.

Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This is what the ancients were commended for.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[SUP][a][/SUP] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

But one can not leave out that faith must act.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I never it was the work itself. Just as I said before FAITH is at the root. Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. One can not even repent and have it be pleasing to God WITHOUT FAITH.

Hebrews 11

11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. [SUP]2 [/SUP]This is what the ancients were commended for.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[SUP][a][/SUP] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

But one can not leave out that faith must act.

This is where people get into trouble. they state faith MUST act. that is not the case. faith WILL act is more accurate.

If one does not have faith, they will not take the first step. If one has faith. they will ALWAYS take the first step. there is no if about it.

I would also say repent must be before faith. If we still trust in self (which everyone who is not born of God does) they must repent before they have faith in God. There will be no faith without repentnance.

 

[SarahM777]

This is where people get into trouble. they state faith MUST act. that is not the case. faith WILL act is more accurate.

If one does not have faith, they will not take the first step. If one has faith. they will ALWAYS take the first step. there is no if about it.

I would also say repent must be before faith. If we still trust in self (which everyone who is not born of God does) they must repent before they have faith in God. There will be no faith without repentnance.

Why is that inaccurate to say faith must act? If love is at the root will not love desire to act? Does not love desire to show that love to the Father? Does not love seek to please the Father? Then if it seeks to please the Father then does it not act?

That contradicts Hebrews 11. It clearly says that WITHOUT FAITH one CAN NOT please God. If one does not have faith and one tries to repent WITHOUT faith HOW does that please God?

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

How can one seek God to repent if one DOES NOT believe He exists? One must have ENOUGH FAITH to believe that God exists in the first place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That contradicts Hebrews 11. It clearly says that WITHOUT FAITH one CAN NOT please God. If one does not have faith and one tries to repent WITHOUT faith HOW does that please God?

How can one trust God when they are still trusting self? How can one have faith in God when one still believes they are their own God? How can one have faith in God that sin is sin, when they still believe sin is ok?

One can not have faith unless the repent.

Heb 1 is talking about doing works of faith. Repentance is not a work. it is a state of mind.

6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

How can one seek God to repent if one DOES NOT believe He exists? One must have ENOUGH FAITH to believe that God exists in the first place.

He can't. because he has not repented. Thats my point.

 

[SarahM777]

How can one trust God when they are still trusting self? How can one have faith in God when one still believes they are their own God? How can one have faith in God that sin is sin, when they still believe sin is ok?

One can not have faith unless the repent.

Heb 1 is talking about doing works of faith. Repentance is not a work. it is a state of mind.



He can't. because he has not repented. Thats my point.

Where does that verse say anywhere that one must repent BEFORE one has ANY FAITH whatsoever? That verse clearly says that one must have ENOUGH faith to believe God exists to seek Him out.

Where does scripture say repentance is a state of mind? It is a matter of the heart not the mind. It's a matter of the circumcised heart.

 

[dcontroversal]

This is where people get into trouble. they state faith MUST act. that is not the case. faith WILL act is more accurate.

If one does not have faith, they will not take the first step. If one has faith. they will ALWAYS take the first step. there is no if about it.

I would also say repent must be before faith. If we still trust in self (which everyone who is not born of God does) they must repent before they have faith in God. There will be no faith without repentnance.

I agree and will even add that the very ability to believe is from God and tied to God void of human merit or effort...

1. God has dealt to every man a measure of faith
2. Faith is a spiritual gift

At the end of the day everything tied to biblical salvation is tied to God dia Jesus and void of human effort and or merit!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does that verse say anywhere that one must repent BEFORE one has ANY FAITH whatsoever? That verse clearly says that one must have ENOUGH faith to believe God exists to seek Him out.

Where does scripture say repentance is a state of mind? It is a matter of the heart not the mind. It's a matter of the circumcised heart.

Repent means to change ones mind, to go from one state of mind to another because you have changed your view

A circumcised heart has repented, because he changed his mind, His heart is circumcised BECAUSE he repented. and BECAUSE he repented, he was able to trust God.

Repent and believe. Repent always comes first, because there can be no faith unless on first repents (changes his mind)

again, If I do not think adutry is a sin because of the damage it does to our souls, and those we sin against, How could I ever have faith in Gods command, do not commit adultry. I must change my viewpoint before I can ever trust what God says.