Everyone is predestined before time began
- Thread starter Godiskindtothewicked
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It wasn't a lie at all. People try to make Paul the supporter of all kind of theologies.
Paul is more optimist than Calvin:
11 Again I ask: Did they [the Jews who rejected the gospel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Paul is more optimist than Calvin:
11 Again I ask: Did they [the Jews who rejected the gospel] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
C
I don't think you understood my reply. I do not believe that God chose who would go to Hell and who would go to Heaven before the foundation of the earth -- But He did "Foreknow" who would Love Him of their own Freewill and because of that Love, because of His Grace and by faith - they remain faithful unto death because they love Him.
These are the elect that Peter is talking about. Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God the Father and same with the Jews ... His people that He Foreknew who by faith would be obedient because they love[d] Him and His Words.
The whole Book is a Love Story --- not a God that makes Robots.
Without freewill and the choice to Love Him - we're nothing more than those awaiting a forced marriage.
What Glory does it bring to God to have a Bride that He forced into marriage?
This doctrine of Predestination takes the Love right out of our 'relationship' with Christ Jesus and the Father.
He loved us first - but only 'the few' CHOOSE TO Love Him in return and are submitting to Him - as it speaks of in Eph 5:22-33.
I didn't write that - it's in His Word. Love is #1 and that Love must come from our own freewill and be acted upon through faith and obedience [submitting to].
God did not choose some to go to Hell .... but He foreknew those that would choose to live without Him, of their own freewill.
These are the elect that Peter is talking about. Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God the Father and same with the Jews ... His people that He Foreknew who by faith would be obedient because they love[d] Him and His Words.
The whole Book is a Love Story --- not a God that makes Robots.
Without freewill and the choice to Love Him - we're nothing more than those awaiting a forced marriage.
What Glory does it bring to God to have a Bride that He forced into marriage?
This doctrine of Predestination takes the Love right out of our 'relationship' with Christ Jesus and the Father.
He loved us first - but only 'the few' CHOOSE TO Love Him in return and are submitting to Him - as it speaks of in Eph 5:22-33.
I didn't write that - it's in His Word. Love is #1 and that Love must come from our own freewill and be acted upon through faith and obedience [submitting to].
God did not choose some to go to Hell .... but He foreknew those that would choose to live without Him, of their own freewill.
K
What this doctrine teaches is that some our given favor and some are not. It's like a cake walk, well you are so stupid I'm gonna burn you, but this guy is educated so I'm gonna use Him. Wrong and stupid. It's putting God in the realm of man. I meant why did He pick you and reject the the other. I meant why.
C
Calvin went so far as to say that some that are living the faith and walk of a true believer will find out when they see Him that they were Not one of His "elect".
Because LOVE -- God's #1 Commandment was missing from the 'doctrine' of the Pharisees and from Calvin & co.s' "doctrine" - that's exactly why there were so many murders done in the name of their beliefs. Killing "heretics" was what came from this man and divisions in The Church and a people that feel free to throw out the obedience that Jesus Spoke of and trampling it under foot, calling obedience to Christ's Word, "works of the law" or just "works" that aren't needed --- twisting the scriptures [Paul's writings] to their own destruction, Peter said.
"Whosoever will, Come!" Amen! ~ that is what He said and He meant that. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Because LOVE -- God's #1 Commandment was missing from the 'doctrine' of the Pharisees and from Calvin & co.s' "doctrine" - that's exactly why there were so many murders done in the name of their beliefs. Killing "heretics" was what came from this man and divisions in The Church and a people that feel free to throw out the obedience that Jesus Spoke of and trampling it under foot, calling obedience to Christ's Word, "works of the law" or just "works" that aren't needed --- twisting the scriptures [Paul's writings] to their own destruction, Peter said.
"Whosoever will, Come!" Amen! ~ that is what He said and He meant that. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Brother PennEd,
May God give all of us better understanding of His Word according to His tender mercies.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
God created all things, did He not?......God knows all things, does He not?......But what does God say to the wicked?.......
Ezekiel 18:21
But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.
What if God created the vessels fit for destruction to call them unto repentance and deliver them from their fate of wrath and death through faith in Jesus Christ, to show His mercy towards all of us?.......
Romans 3:9
9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
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we all have a chance, and a choice. Jesus displayed that by being sinless. (unless one thinks Jesus cheated)
The fact is that all people but Christ have wasted their free choice on their own fleshly desires.
What predestination is dealing with is not whether or not a person is going to deserve damnation, because all do,
but over which ones are His, to be given mercy.
Evil must pay for it's evil. And we all deserve that punishment.
Are you dissatisfied with the mercy that God does give?
The fact is that all people but Christ have wasted their free choice on their own fleshly desires.
What predestination is dealing with is not whether or not a person is going to deserve damnation, because all do,
but over which ones are His, to be given mercy.
Evil must pay for it's evil. And we all deserve that punishment.
Are you dissatisfied with the mercy that God does give?
God's choosing has nothing to do with the actions of the person, as is clearly stated in Scripture. Educational level has no part in election. Why would you bring up an obviously unbiblical example?
Why so much offense over clear Biblical doctrine?
There is no possible way to get around it. The Bible states it over and over again.
His choice is a mystery to us now, but it suits His Purpose and Will.
(There is no checklist in heaven of necessary attributes for an elect person)
Why so much offense over clear Biblical doctrine?
There is no possible way to get around it. The Bible states it over and over again.
His choice is a mystery to us now, but it suits His Purpose and Will.
(There is no checklist in heaven of necessary attributes for an elect person)
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1. Do you think Paul's purpose was to teach to the Gentile Christians the doctrine of predestination?
2. Why does Paul say in the beginning of ch. 9 that he has great sorrow and anguish in his heart and that he wished that he himself was cut off from Christ for the sake of his people (Israel)?
3. Who are (in the context) the vessels of God's wrath? Who did God hardened in order to bring salvation to the world?
2. Why does Paul say in the beginning of ch. 9 that he has great sorrow and anguish in his heart and that he wished that he himself was cut off from Christ for the sake of his people (Israel)?
3. Who are (in the context) the vessels of God's wrath? Who did God hardened in order to bring salvation to the world?
C
"Clearly stated in Scripture" ?
"Clear Biblical doctrine" ?
"There is no way to get around it" ?
"The Bible states it over and over again" ?
"There is no checklist in heaven of necessary attributes for an elect person" ?
Back to the basics:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I'm not sure of your point of questioning.
Predestination is not founded in Romans 9.
It is founded in Genesis 1. Reaffirmed in chapter 3. Repeated to all of the patriarchs from Abraham to Solomon.
Jesus talked about it numerous times, and extremely clearly in John 6, and in His prayer at the Last Supper.
Peter talks about it in the opening of each of his letters, and then again more than once throughout the body of each letter.
Paul talks about it very often.
John talks about it in his letters, including many times in Revelation.
Don't try and tear apart one chapter or verse. Look at the whole.
Predestination is not founded in Romans 9.
It is founded in Genesis 1. Reaffirmed in chapter 3. Repeated to all of the patriarchs from Abraham to Solomon.
Jesus talked about it numerous times, and extremely clearly in John 6, and in His prayer at the Last Supper.
Peter talks about it in the opening of each of his letters, and then again more than once throughout the body of each letter.
Paul talks about it very often.
John talks about it in his letters, including many times in Revelation.
Don't try and tear apart one chapter or verse. Look at the whole.
fine, but this is a useless discussion.
1. No. Predestination just happened to come up.
2. Paul said that because he meant it. In following after Christ, Paul would have given himself up if it meant the salvation of another.
3. In context? Clay pots.
-in extended context? Pharaoh.
-in hyper extended context? Any antichrist.
satisfied?
3part 2: yes, the Jews were hardened. Do you know what that means, or are you making anti semitic assumptions?
1. No. Predestination just happened to come up.
2. Paul said that because he meant it. In following after Christ, Paul would have given himself up if it meant the salvation of another.
3. In context? Clay pots.
-in extended context? Pharaoh.
-in hyper extended context? Any antichrist.
satisfied?
3part 2: yes, the Jews were hardened. Do you know what that means, or are you making anti semitic assumptions?
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C
It bothers me because your belief closes the door to all that would believe.
You've twisted three verses already with that reply. You're limiting the "whosoever" and "the world" to those that you believe that God chose just for His Own liking to save and damned the others and they have no chance, just because God wanted some to go to Hell.
No, I do not and cannot accept your 'doctrine'.
The Word of GOD says that the Elect are those that He foreknew that would "believe" and not those that He chose and 'made to' believe --- thus making others 'not believe' .... calling God the Author of sin, is what your doctrine is doing.
Taking the guilt off of those that reject the light because they love the darkness instead and putting the reason why they're headed for Hell as, because what they did was GOD'S FAULT or GOD'S DOING and therefore GOD'S WILL.
HE said that HE is NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
Even the word translated as "heresy" is "Choice" in the Greek.
Choose ye this day.........
You've twisted three verses already with that reply. You're limiting the "whosoever" and "the world" to those that you believe that God chose just for His Own liking to save and damned the others and they have no chance, just because God wanted some to go to Hell.
No, I do not and cannot accept your 'doctrine'.
The Word of GOD says that the Elect are those that He foreknew that would "believe" and not those that He chose and 'made to' believe --- thus making others 'not believe' .... calling God the Author of sin, is what your doctrine is doing.
Taking the guilt off of those that reject the light because they love the darkness instead and putting the reason why they're headed for Hell as, because what they did was GOD'S FAULT or GOD'S DOING and therefore GOD'S WILL.
HE said that HE is NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.
Even the word translated as "heresy" is "Choice" in the Greek.
Choose ye this day.........
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Why? Isn't what the thread is all about? About the verses 22 and 23 from Romans ch. 9?
So, why is everybody talking about calvinism when the verses are clearly not about predestination, but about God's plan to save the world?
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Really? The topic of predestination just happened to come up? Out of nowhere? Does Paul talk in a vacuum, not in a continuum?
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That is beautiful. But, since the topic of predestination just "happened to come up"...is it possible that Paul felt deep sorrow for his people because God's chose them to be "vessels of wrath"?
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I am glad you didn't forget about Pharaoh. The example of Pharaoh doesn't just simply come up in Paul's letter. He is saying that just as God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to accomplish the exodus...so did God hardened Israel, in order to deliver (bring to an exodus from death to life) the whole world.
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yes, that is the correct answer.
I do not appreciate the part when you say that I am making anti-semitic assumptions. All I do is showing you what Paul says.
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Why? Isn't what the thread is all about? About the verses 22 and 23 from Romans ch. 9?
So, why is everybody talking about calvinism when the verses are clearly not about predestination, but about God's plan to save the world?
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Really? The topic of predestination just happened to come up? Out of nowhere? Does Paul talk in a vacuum, not in a continuum?
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That is beautiful. But, since the topic of predestination just "happened to come up"...is it possible that Paul felt deep sorrow for his people because God's chose them to be "vessels of wrath"?
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I am glad you didn't forget about Pharaoh. The example of Pharaoh doesn't just simply come up in Paul's letter. He is saying that just as God hardened Pharaoh's heart in order to accomplish the exodus...so did God hardened Israel, in order to deliver (bring to an exodus from death to life) the whole world.
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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Yes, that is the correct answer.
I do not appreciate the part when you say that I am making anti-semitic assumptions. All I do is showing you what Paul says.
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People damn themselves.
All I can say is this: read the Word, and submit yourself to it.
This is not a doctrine for the unsaved, but for those who are well into the meat of living out their faith.
I'm not sure why you think predestination makes God "author of sin". It surely does not. That is something that man places upon God because they do not want to take responsibility for their own damnation. Don't buy into it.
Man makes his own bed, and sleeps in it. God wakes some of them up.
He's not choosing who goes to hell, but choosing who gets snatched out of it.
NO ONE DESERVES THIS CHANCE!
God is not evil for "letting" men go to hell. Men are evil for deserving it.
God is GOOD for saving some from it.
Who does He save? All those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
All I can say is this: read the Word, and submit yourself to it.
This is not a doctrine for the unsaved, but for those who are well into the meat of living out their faith.
I'm not sure why you think predestination makes God "author of sin". It surely does not. That is something that man places upon God because they do not want to take responsibility for their own damnation. Don't buy into it.
Man makes his own bed, and sleeps in it. God wakes some of them up.
He's not choosing who goes to hell, but choosing who gets snatched out of it.
NO ONE DESERVES THIS CHANCE!
God is not evil for "letting" men go to hell. Men are evil for deserving it.
God is GOOD for saving some from it.
Who does He save? All those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.