If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[Jackson123]

I believe the OP want to say is a man must be baptize with water before he or she save.

what happen If a man accept the Lord and die instantly

Let me repeat what the bible said:

1. A tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have real faith than he will do good work. So there is no such thing a man with faith in Jesus and have time to show the fruit/not die instantly and not doing love work.

2. Apostle John said if a man say love the Lord but didn't love his brother, he is a liar. Mean there is no such thing a man love the Lord but not love his fellow man.

3. Jesus said Branch can't bear the fruit of itself.
a. Fruit in this sentence mean good work/love work.
b. branch mean a man.
It is impossible for a man without Jesus able to doing good work. I read one of our brother here not agree with what Jesus said. He said: " I see some non christian help the poor".

But Jesus said so, We as human can't see what is in a man heart. He may help other but not base on agape love.

And Jesus continue said, If a man abide to me he will bear the fruit.

So if a man claim to be christian/abide to Jesus and not bear the fruit, than he is a liar (if not die instantly)

There isn't such thing that christian man not bear the fruit.

When apostle James said Faith without work is death, doesn't mean there is a faith without work. If so mean he doesn't agree with Jesus teaching.

It satirized, We have to read the bible in context

Catholic deliberately mislead his member. A tree seen by it fruit. the history show catholic is a killer.

 

[hopesprings]

I believe the OP want to say is a man must be baptize with water before he or she save.

what happen If a man accept the Lord and die instantly

Let me repeat what the bible said:

1. A tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have real faith than he will do good work. So there is no such thing a man with faith in Jesus and have time to show the fruit/not die instantly and not doing love work.

2. Apostle John said if a man say love the Lord but didn't love his brother, he is a liar. Mean there is no such thing a man love the Lord but not love his fellow man.

3. Jesus said Branch can't bear the fruit of itself.
a. Fruit in this sentence mean good work/love work.
b. branch mean a man.
It is impossible for a man without Jesus able to doing good work. I read one of our brother here not agree with what Jesus said. He said: " I see some non christian help the poor".

But Jesus said so, We as human can't see what is in a man heart. He may help other but not base on agape love.

And Jesus continue said, If a man abide to me he will bear the fruit.

So if a man claim to be christian/abide to Jesus and not bear the fruit, than he is a liar (if not die instantly)

There isn't such thing that christian man not bear the fruit.

When apostle James said Faith without work is death, doesn't mean there is a faith without work. If so mean he doesn't agree with Jesus teaching.

It satirized, We have to read the bible in context

Catholic deliberately mislead his member. A tree seen by it fruit. the history show catholic is a killer.

i think some people are forgetting the thief on the cross.....

 

[newbirth]

I believe the OP want to say is a man must be baptize with water before he or she save.

I think Jesus said so
Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

what happen If a man accept the Lord and die instantly

where does the scripture teach one to accept Christ?

Let me repeat what the bible said:

1. A tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have real faith than he will do good work. So there is no such thing a man with faith in Jesus and have time to show the fruit/not die instantly and not doing love work.

2. Apostle John said if a man say love the Lord but didn't love his brother, he is a liar. Mean there is no such thing a man love the Lord but not love his fellow man.

3. Jesus said Branch can't bear the fruit of itself.
a. Fruit in this sentence mean good work/love work.
b. branch mean a man.

bible also say .....
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

It is impossible for a man without Jesus able to doing good work. I read one of our brother here not agree with what Jesus said. He said: " I see some non christian help the poor".

But Jesus said so, We as human can't see what is in a man heart. He may help other but not base on agape love.

And Jesus continue said, If a man abide to me he will bear the fruit.

So if a man claim to be christian/abide to Jesus and not bear the fruit, than he is a liar (if not die instantly)

There isn't such thing that christian man not bear the fruit.

John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

When apostle James said Faith without work is death, doesn't mean there is a faith without work. If so mean he doesn't agree with Jesus teaching.

you are calling James a liar ....if he says faith without works is dead ,,,,then faith without works is dead...

It satirized, We have to read the bible in context

then do so and not make up stories....

Catholic deliberately mislead his member. A tree seen by it fruit. the history show catholic is a killer.

you cannot see further than the catholic church...let it go bro .....God is the judge of all...none shall escape...

 

[newbirth]

i think some people are forgetting the thief on the cross.....

did Jesus give his disciples their instruction before his resurrection or after?...did they have the opportunity to preach the gospel of Christ's resurrection to the thief...?

 

[dcontroversal]

i think some people are forgetting the thief on the cross.....

I agree and will say that workers for salvation and those who will argue water as part of salvation will explain away the thief by saying two things...

1. He is not an example of N.T. salvation
2. You cannot prove that he was not immersed

Both statements ignorantly ignore and reject a few things.....

1. The law and the prophets were until John<---John was dead and gone and Jesus had called out his disciples and the church is spoken of in the present tense no less than two times
2. The thief was being put to death for thievery and murder<-no murderer hath eternal life dwelling in him
3. The thief acknowledge the Lordship of Jesus and Jesus recognizes the thief and acknowledges his faith toward Jesus

Just to name three........!

 

[kennethcadwell]

The thief on the cross is not a good example, it is a bad example to use him to show believers don't have to do as the Lord commanded.
The thief being saved came before the death and resurrection of the Lord that initiated the new covenant. Plus the Lord said I will have mercy on who I have mercy, the Lord can save who He wants. Which is why I believe those who are on their death bed, or last hours of their life can and will be forgiven if they accept Jesus.
Plus the thief did recognize his wrong doings and how deserving of death he was, and asked the Lord not to forget Him. In other words he repented.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The thief on the cross is not a good example, it is a bad example to use him to show believers don't have to do as the Lord commanded.
The thief being saved came before the death and resurrection of the Lord that initiated the new covenant. Plus the Lord said I will have mercy on who I have mercy, the Lord can save who He wants. Which is why I believe those who are on their death bed, or last hours of their life can and will be forgiven if they accept Jesus.
Plus the thief did recognize his wrong doings and how deserving of death he was, and asked the Lord not to forget Him. In other words he repented.

How can this be? How many gospels are their? You just admitted that people can get saved in different ways? I guess paul lied?

 

[SeaBass]

Still twisted out of context while ignoring....NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE

And there is no hope in your tainted theology......how many works required..1, 10. 500.....your heresy leaves no hope as the bible states clearly saved dia faith based upon GRACE NOT of WORKS lest any man should boast.....

You will be bumming when you take your last breath while believing in CAINOLOGY.........hope you like it hot!

"works of righteousness we have done" refers to works of merit and not obedient works, the obedient works Jesus said one does for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

It would be a contradiction for one to claim "works of righteousness we have done" means to exclude ALL works when Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

How can this be? How many gospels are their? You just admitted that people can get saved in different ways? I guess paul lied?

No, I did not just explain two gospels.
To be saved one must have faith to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and repent of their sins.
The thief was before the new covenant was initiated, the scriptures make it clear that through His blood by His death and resurrection the new covenant was initiated.
If you follow the gospel message of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, then if a person on their death bead accept Jesus as their Lord and ask for forgiveness they would be saved just like you and me.

The only time the scriptures say it is to late for somebody to be saved is after they have died. Which is why the Lord says not to wait and put things off because you never know when that ending will come. If you say that a person who is in the hospital dying from a disease or wound that has never believed in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but then believe in Him those last few days, hours, or minutes and acknowledge their faults before the Lord can not be saved. Then you take away from the Lord our Gods ability.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No, I did not just explain two gospels.
To be saved one must have faith to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and repent of their sins.

This is what the thief on the cross did did he not?

The thief was before the new covenant was initiated, the scriptures make it clear that through His blood by His death and resurrection the new covenant was initiated.
If you follow the gospel message of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, then if a person on their death bead accept Jesus as their Lord and ask for forgiveness they would be saved just like you and me.

It has always been that way, It is how abraham got saved, it is how david got saved. Not sure what your trying to argue here, Jesus death made their salvation complete once he died, but they were saved the same way we are.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This is what the thief on the cross did did he not?



It has always been that way, It is how abraham got saved, it is how david got saved. Not sure what your trying to argue here, Jesus death made their salvation complete once he died, but they were saved the same way we are.

The old covenant in OT was about animal sacrifices for sins, not putting their trust in Jesus for that forgiveness.
A lot of Jews still don't accept Jesus for who He is. You can not say the old covenant was about putting ones faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, that was not initiated tell Jesus who came in flesh died on the cross and was resurrected.

You can say it is the same if you put faith in God as the same as faith in Jesus, because Jesus was God come in the flesh. But the thing is forgiveness of sins in the old covenant was done through faith in God and sacrifices animals for those sins, and the new covenant is about faith in Jesus Christ and forgiveness of sins through Him in repentance.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The old covenant in OT was about animal sacrifices for sins, not putting their trust in Jesus for that forgiveness.

Have you even read the book of hebrews.

Sacrifice and burnt offering could never take away sin. David did not offer sacrifice for his heinous sins, He admited, Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. It was faith in Gods provision to remove their sin, They might not have known how. But they trusted he would

A lot of Jews still don't accept Jesus for who He is. You can not say the old covenant was about putting ones faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, that was not initiated tell Jesus who came in flesh died on the cross and was resurrected.

The old covenant did not save one person, if it could Jesus would not have to come, Again do you not read what paul says about the law?

You can say it is the same if you put faith in God as the same as faith in Jesus, because Jesus was God come in the flesh. But the thing is forgiveness of sins in the old covenant was done through faith in God and sacrifices animals for those sins, and the new covenant is about faith in Jesus Christ and forgiveness of sins through Him in repentance.

Wrong again, Again you need to study more.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

Psalm 51:16
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give

 

[SeaBass]

Context. James says what good is it if a man says/claims he has faith but he has no works (to back up that claim, where is the proof?). Can that faith save him? The answer is no because this is not genuine faith but an empty profession of faith, a dead faith.

Yes, we prove or SHOW our faith by our works, NOT establish. Big difference! In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham offering Isaac his son on the altar did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to earn his salvation, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works, "shown to be righteous." Also see Romans 4:2-3.

Faith must be rooted and established in Christ to be a living viable faith (Ephesians 2:5-8). Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of a living viable faith, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation, like you so desperately want to believe.

Upon initial conversion of placing faith in Christ for salvation, how many believers have already instantly given a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? (James 2:15-16). Does it take a little bit of time to accomplish this work, or is it accomplished instantaneously upon conversion? Conversion, according to you is at baptism, so is faith dead after baptism before one gives a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body? Does giving a brother or sister the things which are needed for the body cause our faith to become alive or does it SHOW that our faith is alive. (James 2:18)

If there are no works then there was never any genuine faith. Works are not the source of life in faith; rather the life in faith is the source of the works. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith, not works. Christ is our source of life. Removing fruit from a tree does not kill the tree. The fruit produced by the tree is not the source of life for the tree. The source of life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root and works are the fruit of salvation. [/COLOR]

One obeys the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16) from a lost condition. One is saved after he obeys the gospel (Romans 10:16) by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) and not before. No further acts of obedience/works are required for one to become saved.

Obedient works are what we are saved FOR and not by (Ephesians 2:8-10). We are not saved by works, as you self righteously want to believe. Saving faith produces obedience works, so claiming to have faith yet never producing any obedient works demonstrates a dead faith (James 2:14), which is what James means by faith only/an empty profession of faith, not genuine faith that is alive in Christ and shows that it is genuine by works.

One must become righteous first/child of God (Romans 4:5; 1 John 3:10) before he can practice righteousness. An unrighteous person does not produce works of righteousness. A bad tree cannot bear/produce good fruit. Every good tree bears good fruit. You erroneously teach that bad trees bear/produce good fruit in order to become good trees. You have it backwards.

One establishes faith by works for if there are no works then there is no faith, it's dead. One cannot prove he even has faith without works is James' point.

Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

1) Gen 15:6 does not say "And he believed ONLY in the Lord" the word onlyh is added, assumed into the verse.

2) assuming "only" into Gen 15:6 ignores that Abraham's faith prior to Gen 15:6 contained obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred, Gen 12:1-4 and building altars to worship God, Gen 13:4.

3) James also quotes Gen 15:6 (James 2:23) and ties works to that belief.

4) For one to argue Abraham was saved by "faith only" in Gen 15:6 implies that prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was an unforgiven, lost reprobate. The context does not allow for that. GEn 15:1 would not be words God would speak to a lost reprobate.

5) Gen 22:12 would have been when Abraham was justified as James also points this out, James 2:21-24. It was God's final approval of Abraham as Abraham passed the tests given ;him by God. This final justification was not base upon any faith only but OBEDIENCE to God. Even ;though God foreknew what Abraham would do it still required Abraham perform the ACT of OBEDIENCE for God's final justification of Abraham.

You post "Faith must be rooted and established in Christ to be a living viable faith (Ephesians 2:5-8)."

James point is faith is DEAD without works and remains DEAD until there are works. You are trying to get one saved by a DEAD faith then he can do works. A DEAD faith cannot do anything for it is DEAD.

You post "If there are no works then there was never any genuine faith."

Then one can NEVER have a 'genuine" faith if he NEVER has any works. You just made works necessary to having a 'genuine' faith.

Is a 'genuine' faith necessary to being saved? Yes.
Are works necessary to having a genuine faith? Yes
Therefore works are just as necessary to salvation as a 'genuine' faith for without works there is no 'genuine' faith.

How can on one hand someone argue that faith only saved "Joe" but now that "Joe" is saved he must do works? If faith only saves then "Joe" would NEVER have to do any works. If he must do works then he no longer has faith only but faith AND works.

Can "Joe" can be a saved yet NEVER do any works and still be saved?

If you answer "No' then you are making those works a necessary part of "Joe's"salvation
If you answer 'yes" then that contradicts Eph 2:10 and the lack of works proves "Joe' does NOT have a genuine faith.


ROm 1:16 "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

This verse does not have the word "only" or "alone" in it. Paul did not say "to every one that believeth only" if he did then that contradicts Rom 10:9,10 where Paul made confession a necessary part of salvation and Rom 6:3-5 where Paul made baptism a necessary part of salvation or Acts 26:20 where Paul made repentance a necessary part of being saved.

You continue to try to get one first saved then obey which is backwards from many verses ads Rom 6:16,17 where obeying comes BEFORE justification.

One is either doing unrighteousness or righteousness - no inbetween.

If one does NOT obey BEFORE he is saved then he is doing unrighteousness and you are trying to get him saved while he is living in and doing unrighteousness, which is not possible. One must first do righteousness in believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized then one can be reckoned righteousness. Abraham was not reckoned righteous BEFORE he obeyed.

Again, John says one that CONTINUES to NOT do righteousness CONTINUES to NOT be of God. tghat means the only way to be of God is by doing righteousness. Doing unrighteousness can never make one 'of God' yet that is what you are trying to do by getting one saved BEFORE he obeys.

 

[SeaBass]

I believe the OP want to say is a man must be baptize with water before he or she save.

what happen If a man accept the Lord and die instantly

Let me repeat what the bible said:

1. A tree seen by it fruit. Mean if a man have real faith than he will do good work. So there is no such thing a man with faith in Jesus and have time to show the fruit/not die instantly and not doing love work.

2. Apostle John said if a man say love the Lord but didn't love his brother, he is a liar. Mean there is no such thing a man love the Lord but not love his fellow man.

3. Jesus said Branch can't bear the fruit of itself.
a. Fruit in this sentence mean good work/love work.
b. branch mean a man.
It is impossible for a man without Jesus able to doing good work. I read one of our brother here not agree with what Jesus said. He said: " I see some non christian help the poor".

But Jesus said so, We as human can't see what is in a man heart. He may help other but not base on agape love.

And Jesus continue said, If a man abide to me he will bear the fruit.

So if a man claim to be christian/abide to Jesus and not bear the fruit, than he is a liar (if not die instantly)

There isn't such thing that christian man not bear the fruit.

When apostle James said Faith without work is death, doesn't mean there is a faith without work. If so mean he doesn't agree with Jesus teaching.

It satirized, We have to read the bible in context

Catholic deliberately mislead his member. A tree seen by it fruit. the history show catholic is a killer.

What if an atheist was on an airplane about to crash. He begins to think there is a 'higher power' and an after-life, yet dies in the crash not knowing exactly who or what to believe in. Since he would have believed but did not have enough time, he will be saved anyway in his unbelief.

So if you can come up with scenarios to try and get around being water baptized I can come up with scenarios to get around believing. We will no longer need a bible to tell us how man is saved for we can just make up all kinds of scenarios and let those scenarios, and not God's word, determine how man is saved.

 

[dcontroversal]

"works of righteousness we have done" refers to works of merit and not obedient works, the obedient works Jesus said one does for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

It would be a contradiction for one to claim "works of righteousness we have done" means to exclude ALL works when Jesus said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

Your twist of words and phrases show a complete ignorance of truth and good luck as for one you are blind and deceived and deluded into thinking that you can distinguish between works of righteousness and works of merit....Paul did not say works of merit...so quit twisting the word of God into a lie by your heretical stance....!

 

[SeaBass]

i think some people are forgetting the thief on the cross.....

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT gospel salvation.

 

[dcontroversal]

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT gospel salvation.

This too reeks of ignorance and stupidity!

 

[SeaBass]

Your twist of words and phrases show a complete ignorance of truth and good luck as for one you are blind and deceived and deluded into thinking that you can distinguish between works of righteousness and works of merit....Paul did not say works of merit...so quit twisting the word of God into a lie by your heretical stance....!

Faith onlyists are creating a multitude of contradictions when they try and make "not of works" in Eph 2:9 or "worketh not' of Rom 4:5 mean to exclude ALL works. Yet creating contraidctons does not seem to stop them from continuing to misuse, misinterpreting those scriptures.

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith onlyists are creating a multitude of contradictions when they try and make "not of works" in Eph 2:9 or "worketh not' of Rom 4:5 mean to exclude ALL works. Yet creating contraidctons does not seem to stop them from continuing to misuse, misinterpreting those scriptures.

Dude, you are so blind to the truth that I am surprised that you don't walk around with a broken nose from running into everything.....you reject truth lock, stop and barrel to promote your heresy while rejecting words in context, phrases in context and simple truth that even a 5 year old could understand.......!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Dude, you are so blind to the truth that I am surprised that you don't walk around with a broken nose from running into everything.....you reject truth lock, stop and barrel to promote your heresy while rejecting words in context, phrases in context and simple truth that even a 5 year old could understand.......!

why do you think I have him on ignore. I again wish all people would ignore him.. he will go away. it has been over a year now. same old stuff. He will never listen