Everyone is predestined before time began

[SolidGround]

So that no one is confused,
understanding/accepting predestination is not a part of the Gospel.
A person can certainly be saved without any understanding of, or even full rejection of, predestination/election.

BUT
once a Believer comes to a place of submitting to what the Scriptures have to say about God choosing them personally,
there is great spiritual blessing, and added joy.

This is not a topic worthy of debate, as more Scripture reading and prayer will answer all of your doubts.


Blessings and peace upon you.
Less of our thoughts, and more of His Word.

 

[ChristIsGod]

If it's not worth debating - why did you start ANOTHER post on this, yourself?

I came back online to answer your other reply to me and now find this new post.

Unbelievable!

I came back to tell you that you haven't given any Scripture to my posts as yet.

"Less of your thought, and more of HIS Word."

That's the only thing that you've posted that resonates in my spirit ... but now I'm waiting for you to go back to that other post and give me HIS Word and not your confused thoughts on Reformed theology or Calvinism.

Sola Scriptura, In Spirit and In Truth.

 

[GuessWho]

SolidGround,

I am sorry that finding the truth about who are the vessels of wrath disturbed you to the point of calling me anti-semitic.
I have however some good news for you. Fortunately, Paul continues his letter in a more optimistic way.

Look what he says in ch. 11:

v.11 "Again I ask: Did they [the Jews who rejected Christ] stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."

v.12 "But if their transgression [the Jews', the vessels of wrath] means riches for the Gentiles [the vessels of mercy], how much greater riches will their inclusion [the inclusion of the vessels of wrath, the Jews] bring!"

v.15 "For if their rejection [of Christ] brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance [Paul talks about Jews accepting Christ] be but life from the dead?"

v.30 "Just as you [the Gentiles] were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [the Jews'] disobedience, v.31 so they [the Jews] too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you."

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them ALL".

 

[Straightshot]

My comment related to the subject of predestination


The Lord does not fix one's destination [ultimate fate] in advance

All humans have a free will and must choose

Does He know in advance who will choose Him ..... yes, but because He knows all things in advance

.... His attribute of knowing the end from the beginning .... pre-cognition

And those who choose Him are in deed pre-destined to receive eternal life

 

[ChristIsGod]

OK, Thanks Straightshot! But that's not Calvinism ... but it's good.

The beauty that I see in His Sovereignty is, that in His Foreknowledge - He knows those that are going to be His by their eventual belief and faith in Him, so even before they come to that faith - God is working all things together in their lives for what He has planned for them. "He knows them that are His" and are 'going to be'. That's such a freeing thought, because many that we doubt will get saved - may be those that only He knows will and so it gives us the reason to go easy on "sinners" as the goodness of God leads them to repentance.

I attended a Reformed Church and joined the Seniors Group. These men and woman were all older than me and had been in that denomination all of their lives - some in their 90's. The question came into our Bible Study for each person to tell whether they believed they would definitely see Heaven or are surely saved and I was shocked when not a one of them Reformed folks who had been Reformed most all of their lives could say "Yes". It broke my heart. I thought to myself - well I thought that your belief was that you were predetermined to salvation - so why don't you believe you're saved?

I didn't say a word of course. I truly love these folks and many are already gone to be with The LORD.

I've had people that believed in Calvinism, go through periods and sometimes fell away from the faith because they began to doubt that they were 'predestined or the elect' after reading or hearing that belief system taught.
And some that would hesitate to commit their lives to Him in fear that they weren't one of His elect.

Anyway - didn't want to make this hard on you or anybody. I love my Reformed brothers and sisters - but I have a strong burden for the lost - and feel gutted when I think that a unsaved person is hearing, that for no fault of their own - they can't be saved because God has chosen them to go to Hell. That's the only thing that makes me furious.
Also, some have taken the OSAS belief to the outer limits and used it as an excuse to live in sin. Saw a lot of that down in the Bible Belt. My burden has always been for teens and the elderly - so I get really sensitive when it comes to them getting the true Nature of God and His love for the whole world and His desire that none should perish but come to repentance and the Blessed Eternal Life - after this difficult life. I shutter at the thought of 'anybody' going to Hell, literally.

Love & Peace to all that Love Him and each other.

 

[Straightshot]

I know what traditional/historical Calvinism is for sure

The movement is basically sound, but the idea that the Lord has pre-destined individuals to either "heaven or hell" is false
.... this as Calvin's idea

All humans have a free will and must choose

What I believe Calvin did was to misinterpret the related scriptures in error thereby conveying a false conotation of predestination

An example of a modern day preacher and Bible teacher is John MacArthur

I do think is an excellent expositor of the scriptures and one of the few left of the same on the earth today

..... and I believe that he knows and understands the difference between pre-destination and the Lord's pre-cognition

 

[Straightshot]

Posting this again ................ the edit policy of this forum does not always give ample time for one to complete a posting


I know what traditional/historical Calvinism is for sure

The movement is basically sound, but the idea that the Lord has pre-destined individuals to either "heaven or hell" is false .... this as Calvin's idea

All humans have a free will and must choose

What I believe Calvin did was to misinterpret the related scriptures in error thereby conveying a false conotation of predestination

An example of a modern day preacher and Bible teacher is John MacArthur [with Calvinistic roots]

I do think he is an excellent expositor of the scriptures and one of the few left of the same on the earth today

..... and I believe that he knows and understands the difference between pre-destination and the Lord's pre-cognition

OSAS can be misleading as well ..... there are scads of individuals that are "churched" and think they are saved, and are not .... this becomes a problem of OSAO has been taught to the same

And an individual can walk away form their faith .... rare, but possible

 

[SeaBass]

Before time began and before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4) god choose a certain elect that will be saved, it is not based on anyone's choice to be saved but rather gods sovereign choice to save some people he has chosen to save from the fires of hell. Romans 9:22-23 paints a picture

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory Romans 9:22-23

so if you go to hell it is because god has chosen to send you there, and if your in heaven it is because god chose to save you

Eph 1:1-5 says nothing about God foreknowing or predestining certain individuals unconditionally.

"predestinated us" "Us" refers to the group Christian, the group "Saints" and "faithful in Christ" verse 1.

What God foreknew in this text is not certain individuals but God foreknew traits the group 'Christian' would possess, those traits being "in Him", "holy and without blame" and called "sons" verse 4 and 5.

God foreknew and predestined the group Christian but God never predetermined what individuals would or would not be in this foreknown, predestined group. Man chooses for himself to be in the group or not.


Rom 9:22 "fitted" would be middle voice, the Jews fitted themselves to destruction..."Who (Jews) both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost." 1 Thess 2:15,16 The Jews of their own freewill chose to disobey God bringing wrath upon themselves.

Rom 9:23 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"

The vessels of mercy afore prepared is the group Christian. When one chooses to obey the gospel he becomes a a Christian, a vessel God has mercy upon, the group that God predestined to be saved in Christ, Eph 1:4, the group prepared unto glory.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Before time began and before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4) god choose a certain elect that will be saved, it is not based on anyone's choice to be saved but rather gods sovereign choice to save some people he has chosen to save from the fires of hell. Romans 9:22-23 paints a picture

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory Romans 9:22-23

so if you go to hell it is because god has chosen to send you there, and if your in heaven it is because god chose to save you

This is just...so wrong. If you go to hell, it's because of your own stupid willful sin and lack of repentance. If you go to heaven it's because you chose to trust Jesus as your savior.

 

[dcontroversal]

Guess you are of the lucky ones, dang those others didn't have chance.

I agree and will add...the problem with the Calvinistic approach to predestination is five fold....

1. The grace of God that brings salvation has shined down upon all mankind
2. God has dealt to every man a measure of faith
3. God would have ALL men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth
4. Creation testifies...day unto day and night unto night and no language where their voice is not heard
5. The invisible things testify to the power of God and the Godhead

The above five cannot be true if some men had no choice in the matter.....ALL men have the same opportunity and MANY CALLED, but few are chosen.......!

The pre-determined will of God before the casting down of the world is evident....

1. All who come to him through Christ and in a biblical manner will be received
2. All who reject Jesus and or refuse to exercise faith will be rejected

Narrow is the door--->only thru Jesus and few will trust this path
Broad is the way to hell--->most will take this path

God knows who will believe and who will not believe and will call/harden according to the choice a man will make which is known before the man/woman comes into existence!

 

[posthuman]

my, some people really know how to stir up division, don't they?

Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin,
"My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."
(Acts 23:6)

 

[Kelsoishere]

This entire thread is hilariously shallow.

 

[dcontroversal]

This entire thread is hilariously shallow.

Actually it contains many elements of truth by those who have posted the truth within the thread....so why not enlighten the (shallow) ones with your grand knowledge of scripture!

 

[Butch5]

This subjects of election, predestination are not hard to understand if we are willing to throw off the the theological baggage that theologians have dumped on these terms. They've taken two simple words and created mess by imposing their ideas on them. The words "eklectos" and "prooridzo," Elect and predestine were just everyday words to the New Testament Christians. Suppose a first century Christian went to the market and was presented with multiple items, they would ecklectos one of them. It simple meant to choose something. It's the same with predestine, it simple means to predetermine something. If I plan a trip and decide to stop at three places along the journey, I have predestined or predetermined that I would stop there. These were just everyday words and then the theologians got a hold of them.

The Bible speaks of God choosing and predestining people, however, He is not predetermining that Tom will be saved but John won't be or that Sally will be saved and Jan won't be. The choosing is for a purpose, God chose men through whom He would bring about restoration. God chose and called Abraham and told him to go to a land that God would show him and He's give it to him as an everlasting possession. Abraham obeyed God and God swore an oath to him. God's promise to Abraham was four fold, He told him that He would make him the father of a great nation, that he would be that father of many nations, that the land would be his forever, and that through his seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. God also promised Isaac and Jacob the land as an everlasting possession and that through their seed all the nations of the earth would be blessed. Now, to fulfill these promises God chose the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Israelites, and He gave them a covenant which they entered into. It is still the same today, it is the seed of Abraham who received the promises. Paul said,

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
(Gal 3:27-29 KJV)

That is election, God chose the seed Abraham, the Iraelites, not all of the Israelites are considered Abraham's seed, but rather those who are of the faith of Abraham, and those who are not Israelites but are in Christ are counted as Abraham's seed. That is how Election and free will mesh together in perfect unity with no contradictions or conflicts.

The predestination was simply God's determining all of this prior to it happening.

 

[Kelsoishere]

I do not waste my time by enlightening a fool.

 

[maxwel]

I do not waste my time by enlightening a fool.

If you keep talking like that... you're going to make people cry.

Won't you feel terrible if people cry?

Then one of them will call you a poopy head.

Then you'll cry too.

Then everybody will be crying.

This is just so so sad.