the Law

[JesusLives]

This is all just a rehash of endless bicker threads, and some are "law trolls" getting their jollies. As to the cults, one either believes the entire New Testament is holy scripture, or not. One either believes the Bible, or false prophets and false teachers. It all comes down to this, and I know I'm not going to budge. Are you going to budge, whether you're of, for instance, Paul, or of Ellen G. White? Does anybody else tire of these thread clones, bickering over the same doctrinal milk, matters settled in the first century?

That's o.k. I still consider you a friend and you are funny at times. Got any toothpaste?

 

[crossnote]

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law in our stead, we keep the Sabbath as we rest in His law keeping and cease from our own efforts at meriting righteousness through our 'law keeping'.

Are you saying that by the power Yahweh has given us we are able to walk according to His Law or that we have the power to ignore it?

I never mentioned power, so I'm not sure why you are asking that.
Through faith in His righteousness, He has robed/clothed us in His.

 

[JesusIsAll]

That's o.k. I still consider you a friend and you are funny at times. Got any toothpaste?

Got a few extra tubes, would have offered them, but it's bad enough around here, no need to attract innuendos and excoriations from the Latter Day Green Teeth!

 

[Brainfreeze]

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

 

[Hizikyah]

I never mentioned power, so I'm not sure why you are asking that.
Through faith in His righteousness, He has robed/clothed us in His.

What im asking, if one has the Spirit of Yahweh while thy are here on earth do they:

follow Yahweh's Instructions

or

ignore Yahweh's Instructions

 

[Brainfreeze]

I never mentioned power, so I'm not sure why you are asking that.
Through faith in His righteousness, He has robed/clothed us in His.

He's asking you a question, because of the Holy Spirit, are we able to keep the commandments easier, or the right to ignore some of them ?

 

[crossnote]

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law in our stead, we keep the Sabbath as we rest in His law keeping and cease from our own efforts at meriting righteousness through our 'law keeping'.

The Laws are not bad or scary, they are a guide book to healthy living, written by our Creator...

People confuse the Law of Yahweh and the law of sin and death.

Romans 7, "7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin. 12 Therefore the Law is W2holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

The Law of Sin and Death?
You do realize Paul used coveting as one of the examples in Rom 7. Coveting is one of the Ten, so therefore you're admitting the whole law was an instrument of death.

1 Corinthians 15:55-56
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Law of Sin and Death?
You do realize Paul used coveting as one of the examples in Rom 7. Coveting is one of the Ten, so therefore you're admitting the whole law was an instrument of death.

1 Corinthians 15:55-56
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Well that contradicts just about everything on this topic. Including what you quoted


Romans 7, "7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin. 12 Therefore the Law is W2holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

 

[Brainfreeze]

1 Corinthians 15:55-56
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What does that scripture mean to you ? You can't answer the question, which says a lot.

 

[crossnote]

What im asking, if one has the Spirit of Yahweh while thy are here on earth do they:

follow Yahweh's Instructions

or

ignore Yahweh's Instructions

We follow Jesus' instructions as
laid out in the Gospels and in the writings of the Apostles which leave out much of the 613 OT laws GIVEN TO Israel and not the Church. And these correspond to God's nature which dwells in us through the new birth and Holy Spirit.
But they had nothing to do with what I was referring to i.e. the rest we have through Christ's righteousness and not our own. ..we merit nothing through law keeping.

 

[crossnote]

Well that contradicts just about everything on this topic. Including what you quoted


Romans 7, "7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin. 12 Therefore the Law is W2holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

that wasn't my quote on this thread.
...BBL

 

[Hizikyah]

We follow Jesus' instructions as
laid out in the Gospels and in the writings of the Apostles which leave out much of the 613 OT laws GIVEN TO Israel and not the Church. And these correspond to God's nature which dwells in us through the new birth and Holy Spirit.
But they had nothing to do with what I was referring to i.e. the rest we have through Christ's righteousness and not our own. ..we merit nothing through law keeping.

I never said there is any merit.

SO you said, "613 OT laws GIVEN TO Israel and not the Church"

if I can Scriptually prove this false will you listen?

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who asojourns with you."

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

You also said, "We follow Jesus' instructions as laid out in the Gospels"

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Luke 6:46, "And why call Me; Ruler! Ruler! and do not the things which I say?"

 

[Yahshua]

Hebrews 7 is a wonderful passage, but it wasn't meant to cause enmity between people. Ever since Gentiles were admitted there has been dispute about what was abolished or not. Gentiles had been excluded from access to God by the Jew's commandments, which set them apart from Gentiles by enmity, hostility from the Jews, resentment from the Gentiles. Gentiles were not allowed past the Gentile Court of the temple, in effect shut out from the presence of God because they were not Jews. All the elements by way of law-ordinaces of Judaism that maintained that bad-blood scenario were abolished by Christ on the cross. But Jesus never abolished love, honor, righteousness. Those remain, which ought not serve to make enmity between both camps of believers.

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[SUP]12 [/SUP] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
[SUP]22 [/SUP] In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Keeping the seventh day sabbath was a commandment given to Israel, those under the law of Moses, which was never aimed at Gentiles. None of it could possibly be required of Gentiles, or Christians in general. The 10 Commandments were specifically given to that chosen people at the foot of Mt. Sinai.

Anyone that studies the Bible will find in the New Testament Jesus and the apostles incorporated the heart of those ten into the doctrine of the gospel of Christ, except for the one, the seventh day sabbath. It is nowhere commanded in the New Covenant after the cross. It was at the cross that the new covenant was ratified in Jesus' blood. The heart of the other nine commandments speak of love, honor, righteousness, against which there is no law.

Colossians 2:13-17 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Gentile Christians are free from any of the types and shadows that spoke of Christ to come. Jesus came.

I agree. But I'd like to emphasize that the types and shadows that spoke of Christ were the "sacrifices". However, the Law is still in place, and actually the above passage confirms this in context.

All italicized words from the original King James Version of the bible were added by his English scribes in their attempt to help explain what was being said in scriptures. The problem is, they didn't have the proper background in Hebraic figures of speech or Hebrew culture, so their italicized words are - many times - incorrect.

If we read the Colossians passage again, removing the italics, note what it says...

Colossians 2:13-17 (KJV with italics removed...)

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


15 having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath:


17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.
​

The issue Paul was addressing wasn't the issue we've created it to be; of other believers judging these gentile converts for *not* following the sabbath, ordinances, and laws of God. From the context, it was other *still pagan* gentiles who were judging these gentile converts *for* following the sabbath, ordinances, and laws of God and *no longer* following the pagan religions & traditions they were born in. Scripture always distinguishes "the Commandments of God" FROM "the doctrines & traditions of men" (which includes pagan religions and phariseeism).

We find clues that this is the true context at the end of chapter 1 and beginning of chapter 2 in Colossians.

Colossians 1:21-23

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:


23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
​

These are gentile converts to the way, coming from a background in pagan religion & traditions ("wicked works"). Paul's letter begins as one of encouragement to those who are following the way, so completely foreign to how they lived up to that point. So if we take a moment to think about what their life is like, we can safely assume that they were estranged from their families, former friends, colleagues; the world they once knew is now against them (which is exactly what Christ said would happen).

Colossians 2:1-4

2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;


2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.


4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
​

Paul's upset that he hasn't been able to meet them so they can be encouraged by his presence, so he sends this letter of encouragement...WARNING them of anyone who would LIE to them with EAR-TICKLING words (i.e. words that appeal more to their fleshy satisfaction than to truth).

And that's always the litmus test: does the word you receive feel good to your flesh? If it feels good chances are it's not from God but is deception. But if it doesn't feel good to hear but still sounds right, chances are it's from God (because the flesh we have HAAATES God). This is confirmed twice in scripture (Ezekiel 3:3 & Revelation 10:9) God's word will make us sick to our fleshy stomachs but sound so right and true; sweet like honey on the lips.

So which feels better to the flesh: saying "there are no longer any rules to follow" or saying "you still have to follow the rules"? Our flesh will tell us what it hates, and by effect, what is the truth of God.

Colossians 2:5-8

5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.


6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:


7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.


8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
​

Philosophy, a Greek concept not a Hebrew/Scriptural one. Vain deceit is empty lies. Traditions of men = pagan religions including phariseeism. Rudiments of the world. All of these things Paul lists are characteristics and elements of paganism, the life they left when they converted to the faith. Paul warns his gentile readers not to be "spoiled" by them. A parent is said to have spoiled a child when he/she doesn't provide them with discipline (i.e. rules to follow); it takes something away from their child's proper rearing. The former things the gentile converts would do - that they would be tempted to return back to - were "sins" against God.

Colossians 2:9-15

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.


10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:


12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you [OF] all trespasses;


14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was *against* us [i.e. OUR RECORD OF CHARGES/CRIMES], which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


15 having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Paul explains how they are now different, changed, and *forgiven* of their former "wicked works" (i.e. their traditions that are sins against God)...and that it was their charges that were nailed to the Cross in Christ's triumphant act. THEREFORE...

Colossians 2:16-17

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body of Christ.

Paul concludes the point he established from his previous sentences. The gentile convert was leaving a life they'd always known for a new life, with the old man now dead. This means all of the traditions they used to do - which were sins - they no longer do. They were changed. So they weren't to let anyone else judge them in the food they eat, holidays they celebrate, or in their worship on new moons or the Sabbath but the body of Christ. Paul is talking against other gentiles still steeped in paganism judging them as well as any false doctrines that the pharisees practiced which perverted the laws of God. Like Christ said, there is a narrow path to walk.

And this is perfectly in line with the rest of scripture that says we indeed ARE to correct our brother & sisters in love; that iron sharpens iron; that the gifts we have are for the perfecting of the body; that Christ hasn't destroyed the law but fulfilled it; that until heaven and earth disappears not one iota of the law is changed; that judgment *begins* at the house of God; that the Holy Spirit WILL reprove of sin and righteousness and judgement; that this same Holy Spirit in side every believer.

Colossians 2:18-23

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels [nothing in scripture commands worshiping angels, but pagan religions did], intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind [i.e. extra stuff imagined to do that makes one feel important],


19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.


20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world [i.e. worldly/pagan/religious things] why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,


21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;


22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?


23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Why are they still subjecting themselves to "the ordinances after the commandments & doctrines of men"? Christ constantly made a distinction *between* the "doctrines of men" (bad) and "the commandments of God" (good)..and here Paul makes the same distinction. He is not questioning God's law but questioning one who would continue to follow traditions that are completely made up by men who seek to show how important they are which are not found in God's law.

Then in Colossians Chapter 3, Paul confirms this difference by emphasizing that the reader is to prevent himself from being disobedient against God by abstaining from fornicating (commandment), coveting (commandment), idolizing (commandment), lying (commandment), disobeying parents (commandment), and other things that should be assumed are included in the commandments of God.

 

[Hizikyah]

But I'd like to emphasize

Your knowledge and your temperance are impressive.

praise and glory to Yahweh for He guides us!

 

[psychomom]

maybe the question isn't, shouldn't we have the power to obey God.

maybe the question is, are we actually doing it??

to the degree God's Law truly requires, are we (and let's be honest)
doing it?

 

[Brainfreeze]

So the only commandment that doesn't necessarily pertain to Gentiles is the sabbath. The other 9 we are, we should keep the two Great Commandments, which follows the other 9 Commandments... Pretty simple

 

[Word_Swordsman]

Israel was warned by Hosea of the coming judgment on them for their spiritual adultery. Their destruction would be complete. It happened quickly. Herod's temple marked their short-lived partial restoration contaminated with Hedonism, the underlying sins of the past that destroyed, reviving along with a sampling of the past glory. They didn't achieve full restoration because they never had national autonomy (sovereignty). The days of Jesus saw the end of that run for the big dream, with a minority of Jewish zealots attempting to take back their former empire by force. They failed, ending at 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem, sealed by the event of Masada.

Hosea 2:11-13 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And I will destroy her vines and her fig trees, whereof she hath said, These are my rewards that my lovers have given me: and I will make them a forest, and the beasts of the field shall eat them.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And I will visit upon her the days of Baalim, wherein she burned incense to them, and she decked herself with her earrings and her jewels, and she went after her lovers, and forgat me, saith the LORD.

That is the present situation. Still, all the glory is abolished by God. No more of the former is acceptable to God. It all is done away with until the great restoration beginning with verse 14. The Sabbath, sabbaths, feasts, all of it is rejected of God, because the precious things were rejected by God's chosen. Meanwhile not a thing of the former is in effect. Only the New Covenant remains.

 

[Hizikyah]

Christ Jesus fulfilled the law in our stead, we keep the Sabbath as we rest in His law keeping and cease from our own efforts at meriting righteousness through our 'law keeping'.

I wont speak

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."

 

[Word_Swordsman]

I agree. But I'd like to emphasize that the types and shadows that spoke of Christ were the "sacrifices". However, the Law is still in place, and actually the above passage confirms this in context.

....

What of male circumcision? How does it apply to non-Jews, the Gentile believers? Your answer will deny your comment, or justify it, nothing in between.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Your saying people steal with out knowing they're stealing, means someones been tricked, I believe one knows when they're stealing. then you call commandments laws for dummies, and then you say my comments are silly after asking you questions... Forgive me, if you think my questions are silly but I don't see it that way.

I believe people do not understand the whole context of what it means to steal. It is more than taking some item that does not belong to you. We can steal time. we can steal lots of things, and because people are not stealing an object, they think they do not steal. that was my point. Of course if you were listening, you might know that.

It is Gods command for dunnies. we are the dummies, We can not even keep the ten. So I stand by what I said.