If Man Has No Role In His Own Salvation......

[kennethcadwell]

Have you even read the book of hebrews.

Sacrifice and burnt offering could never take away sin. David did not offer sacrifice for his heinous sins, He admited, Sacrifice and burnt offering you did not desire. It was faith in Gods provision to remove their sin, They might not have known how. But they trusted he would


The old covenant did not save one person, if it could Jesus would not have to come, Again do you not read what paul says about the law?



Wrong again, Again you need to study more.

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

Psalm 51:16
For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give

You are the one who needs to read more, because sacrifice has always been part of the covenants.
The reason and context why God did not desire the animal sacrifices was because they could never truly reconcile one to God. The only way for one to be reconciled to Him was through His own sacrifice.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In order for the world to be saved, God the Father had to send Jesus His Son to die on the cross ( becoming our sacrifice once and for all ) and taking away the punishment for sin ( spiritual death ).
The first covenant was not the same as the covenant we are under now under our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The first covenant that consisted of the mosaic laws was flawed because of how it could not reconcile us to God.
Plus the first covenant was dedicated by blood as well, but that blood was from the animal sacrifices.

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.



Now you say that the old covenant did not save anybody, so then that must mean that all those Jews that came before the new covenant was lost and not saved, or no salvation in heaven. That is not what scripture says.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

 

[newbirth]

No, I did not just explain two gospels.
To be saved one must have faith to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and repent of their sins.
The thief was before the new covenant was initiated, the scriptures make it clear that through His blood by His death and resurrection the new covenant was initiated.
If you follow the gospel message of salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ, then if a person on their death bead accept Jesus as their Lord and ask for forgiveness they would be saved just like you and me.

The only time the scriptures say it is to late for somebody to be saved is after they have died. Which is why the Lord says not to wait and put things off because you never know when that ending will come. If you say that a person who is in the hospital dying from a disease or wound that has never believed in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but then believe in Him those last few days, hours, or minutes and acknowledge their faults before the Lord can not be saved. Then you take away from the Lord our Gods ability.

you will end up in a predicament if you try to reason with eternally-gratefull he wants you to accept his version of salvation which is not sound doctrine...the scripture teaches ...repent and be baptised for the remission of sins ....he says when one believes by faith they are saved....which is a misunderstanding of scripture......they have put repentance and baptism on the casual list of things to do after one is saved....The scripture says

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 16:32-34King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.





He teaches that one is saved by a faith with no works.....and denies it is faith without works since all faith must have works...but you can only see the works after you are saved because faith produces the works...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are the one who needs to read more, because sacrifice has always been part of the covenants.
The reason and context why God did not desire the animal sacrifices was because they could never truly reconcile one to God. The only way for one to be reconciled to Him was through His own sacrifice.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In order for the world to be saved, God the Father had to send Jesus His Son to die on the cross ( becoming our sacrifice once and for all ) and taking away the punishment for sin ( spiritual death ).
The first covenant was not the same as the covenant we are under now under our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The first covenant that consisted of the mosaic laws was flawed because of how it could not reconcile us to God.
Plus the first covenant was dedicated by blood as well, but that blood was from the animal sacrifices.

Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.



Now you say that the old covenant did not save anybody, so then that must mean that all those Jews that came before the new covenant was lost and not saved, or no salvation in heaven. That is not what scripture says.

1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

The mosaic covenant was never established to remove sin and get anyone saved.

It was given as a schoolmaster.

The gospel has ALWAYS been faith in God. if the law could save anyone, CHrist would not come.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

 

[dcontroversal]

why do you think I have him on ignore. I again wish all people would ignore him.. he will go away. it has been over a year now. same old stuff. He will never listen

No doubt and I agree...instead of taking the word at face value he makes up scenarios and lacks any understanding of the basic simple truths of the word......!

 

[kennethcadwell]

you will end up in a predicament if you try to reason with eternally-gratefull he wants you to accept his version of salvation which is not sound doctrine...the scripture teaches ...repent and be baptised for the remission of sins ....he says when one believes by faith they are saved....which is a misunderstanding of scripture......they have put repentance and baptism on the casual list of things to do after one is saved....The scripture says

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Acts 2:41
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 16:32-34King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP]And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
[SUP]34 [/SUP]And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.





He teaches that one is saved by a faith with no works.....and denies it is faith without works since all faith must have works...but you can only see the works after you are saved because faith produces the works...

I understand that which is one of the reasons why I keep saying people have been feed a lie that one is automatically saved when they believe, have faith in the Lord.
Even He says to be His you will keep His commandments. If you take away repentance, baptism, and confession then you are taking away what He commanded to do.
The other thing I do which is hard for these automatically saved at the beginning, or osas supporters to grasp is even how the Lord says over and over again we must endure to the end to be saved.

 

[kennethcadwell]

The mosaic covenant was never established to remove sin and get anyone saved.

It was given as a schoolmaster.

The gospel has ALWAYS been faith in God. if the law could save anyone, CHrist would not come.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”[e] 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”[f] 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”[g]

13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”[h]), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Then all Jews that lived under the old covenant was and is still lost.
Because Jesus death and resurrection that took place to reconcile us to God, and give us forgiveness of sins was not initiated until the new covenant was put in place by His death and resurrection.
But the scriptures make it clear that some of them did go to heaven because of their faith and obedience to God.

Under the new covenant our faith and obedience is in God the Father and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
The obedience is different though. In the written ordinances of the mosaic law there was food restrictions, cleansing rituals, punishments for sins, animal sacrifices, and such.
Under the new covenant we are not held to all those ordinances to follow. The only commands the Lord gave us was;

Mark 12:30
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these."

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

[h=1]Matthew 10:32-33
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.[/h]Matthew 28:16-20
The Great Commission


16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”



How hard really is it to follow these basic commands ? I don't find it hard at all.


Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 

[Jackson123]

I think Jesus said so
Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Jackson:

Yes He that Baptize or immerse in Jesus/abide in Jesus will be save, water baptism not guaranty salvation.





where does the scripture teach one to accept Christ?

Jackson.

I mean believe/entrust.


bible also say .....
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jackson:'
Yes baptized in the name of Jesus/immerse in the name of Jesus will be save. Immerse in to water not guaranty.



John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Jackson:

Again must read in context. Jesus said

[SUP]4[/SUP] Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
[SUP]5[/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

He that abide in Jesus will bear fruit. Jesus no liar brother.

you are calling James a liar ....if he says faith without works is dead ,,,,then faith without works is dead...


Jackson:
I tell you, brother, I am not accused James a liar, I said James was satirized, Otherwise you accused James doesn't agree with Jesus when Jesus said tree seen by it fruit.

then do so and not make up stories....
you cannot see further than the catholic church...let it go bro .....God is the judge of all...none shall escape...

Jackson

By remind what catholic did I am not talking about hatred, but to love our catholic brother and sister that they church not love them. they church not bear the fruit of love and can't be trust. Run to Jesus as soon as you can.

[h=3]The Catholic Church's Role in the 1994 Rwanda Genocide[/h]exposingreligionblog.tumblr.com/post/19610802934

ALERT: Catholic Bishop, guilty of genocide in South Africa, is on the run!
INTERNATIONAL FUGITIVE ALERT
Since 1994, a Rwandan Catholic Bishop has been on the run, wanted by the criminal tribunal of the UN for genocide and crimes against humanity.
The world is discovering that the Vatican was involved with the Rwanda genocide where nearly 1 million innocent people were brutally murdered.
The Catholic Church is the most criminal organization in existence who has been utilizing their false holy appearance to deceive and commit hideous crimes against humanity since its inception.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then all Jews that lived under the old covenant was and is still lost

No, they were not They were condemned by the law. because no one could obey it as required. Paul takes this clear in galations. I guess you did not read what I posted.

They were saved by faith in God. Their salvation was not official, however, until Christ died, That is why he went to the depts to preach to the spirits. He told the people who had faith in him, he won their battle. and took them into the third heaven with him, he told the rest, he sealed their fate.

Again, You claim you are not teaches two gospels. but you just proved you are.

The law kills. the spirit makes alive, no matter what century you are born in.

 

[Jackson123]

The thief on the cross is not a good example, it is a bad example to use him to show believers don't have to do as the Lord commanded.
The thief being saved came before the death and resurrection of the Lord that initiated the new covenant. Plus the Lord said I will have mercy on who I have mercy, the Lord can save who He wants. Which is why I believe those who are on their death bed, or last hours of their life can and will be forgiven if they accept Jesus.
Plus the thief did recognize his wrong doings and how deserving of death he was, and asked the Lord not to forget Him. In other words he repented.

Before New covenant people had to make animal sacrifice for forgiveness brother.

So what happen if a person believe and have a faith in Jesus then die in a second latter? Is he save?

I believe so. A person that have genuine faith in Jesus if he have time after have a faith, he must bear the fruit/doing lovely work. A tree seen by it fruit.

Good work is a fruit, happen after abide in Jesus, not before.

How you explain when Jesus said only if a man abide in Me will bear the fruit.

 

[hopesprings]

The thief on the cross is not a good example, it is a bad example to use him to show believers don't have to do as the Lord commanded.
The thief being saved came before the death and resurrection of the Lord that initiated the new covenant. Plus the Lord said I will have mercy on who I have mercy, the Lord can save who He wants. Which is why I believe those who are on their death bed, or last hours of their life can and will be forgiven if they accept Jesus.
Plus the thief did recognize his wrong doings and how deserving of death he was, and asked the Lord not to forget Him. In other words he repented.

That's sort of the point tho....
the thief repented of his sin, but there was no time for him to display "good works" for others to see. His works did not save him. His acceptance and recognition of who Jesus is, saved him. Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world. Even Abraham was saved because if His sacrifice. The law was never designed to save anyone.

 

[hopesprings]

did Jesus give his disciples their instruction before his resurrection or after?...did they have the opportunity to preach the gospel of Christ's resurrection to the thief...?

Explain....

 

[hopesprings]

The old covenant in OT was about animal sacrifices for sins, not putting their trust in Jesus for that forgiveness.
A lot of Jews still don't accept Jesus for who He is. You can not say the old covenant was about putting ones faith in Jesus for forgiveness of sins, that was not initiated tell Jesus who came in flesh died on the cross and was resurrected.

You can say it is the same if you put faith in God as the same as faith in Jesus, because Jesus was God come in the flesh. But the thing is forgiveness of sins in the old covenant was done through faith in God and sacrifices animals for those sins, and the new covenant is about faith in Jesus Christ and forgiveness of sins through Him in repentance.

What about john 8:56 where Jesus says Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing Him? Abraham was always looking forward to Gods awesome promise of the Savior.

 

[hopesprings]

The thief on the cross is not an example of NT gospel salvation.

Then what sort of salvation is it an example of ?

 

[mailmandan]

But on the other hand are not works and obedience parts of a saving faith?

Works of obedience are the fruit, but not the root of saving faith. Big difference.

Yes the root is faith,without faith it is impossible to please God,but if that faith is not doing those things is it a saving faith?

If someone claims to have faith but they have no works (produce no works) then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith, a dead faith, not genuine faith that is rooted and alive in Christ.

Can one really strip out those things that come out of a saving faith?

It's not about stripping them out. It's about understanding that faith is the root and works of obedience are the fruit of salvation. No fruit demonstrates that there is no root.

 

[mailmandan]

Be careful trying to use Acts 3 as a proof text.

Why be careful? Acts 3:19 is very clear. Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.. Nothing about baptism.

Peter and John were arrested AS THEY WERE STILL SPEAKING. Does that mean that later the people that they spoke to were not baptized? Or is it that we are just not told?

It's not about were the people they spoke to later baptized. It's at what point were their sins blotted out. Acts 10:43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed in Him/in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 10:45; 11:17) which is referred to as repentance unto life (vs. 18) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

 

[SarahM777]

Repent means to change ones mind, to go from one state of mind to another because you have changed your view

A circumcised heart has repented, because he changed his mind, His heart is circumcised BECAUSE he repented. and BECAUSE he repented, he was able to trust God.

Repent and believe. Repent always comes first, because there can be no faith unless on first repents (changes his mind)

again, If I do not think adutry is a sin because of the damage it does to our souls, and those we sin against, How could I ever have faith in Gods command, do not commit adultry. I must change my viewpoint before I can ever trust what God says.

I understand that is what Strong's gave for the meaning of the word for repent. THAT IS NOT what scripture teaches. No where can you find Jesus ever saying it was a CHANGE OF MIND. Jesus always put unbelief due to WHAT? Where did Jesus say unbelief was due to a mind that needed to be changed? Or did Jesus say unbelief was due to their HARD HEARTS?

Are you saying then that the writer of Hebrews got it WRONG? If one does not have at least a small measure of faith to even go before the Lord to repent,HOW CAN THEY REPENT? One must have enough FAITH to believe that God is going to hear them.

 

[SarahM777]

Why be careful? Acts 3:19 is very clear. Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.. Nothing about baptism.

It's not about were the people they spoke to later baptized. It's at what point were their sins blotted out. Acts 10:43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed in Him/in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 10:45; 11:17) which is referred to as repentance unto life (vs. 18) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

Here's what Acts 3 says,

Acts 3

[SUP]11 [/SUP]While the man held on to Peter and John, all the people were astonished and came running to them in the place called Solomon’s Colonnade. [SUP]12 [/SUP]When Peter saw this, he said to them: “Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? [SUP]13 [/SUP]The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. [SUP]14 [/SUP]You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. [SUP]15 [/SUP]You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. [SUP]16 [/SUP]By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]“Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. [SUP]18 [/SUP]But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]24 [/SUP]“Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. [SUP]25 [/SUP]And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]26 [/SUP]When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

If I use your argument that because Peter DOES NOT speak about water baptism that it is not part of it,then one can say ones DOES NOT need to obey,one does not need to love their brother and sister,one does not need to pick up their cross and follow Christ,one does not need to abide in the vine,etc etc etc. Yet scripture is very clear we are to do those things. It is a flawed argument from silence.

 

[newbirth]

Before New covenant people had to make animal sacrifice for forgiveness brother.

that sacrifice never took away sin .....
Hebrews 10:11
King James Version
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

So what happen if a person believe and have a faith in Jesus then die in a second latter? Is he save?

if ignorance were an excuse devils would be saved... James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I believe so. A person that have genuine faith in Jesus if he have time after have a faith, he must bear the fruit/doing lovely work. A tree seen by it fruit.

just because you believe something does not make it true...but the word of God is truth...
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Good work is a fruit, happen after abide in Jesus, not before.

How you explain when Jesus said only if a man abide in Me will bear the fruit.

the same way you explain this...because God takes away all that does not bear....
John 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


But it does not explain how you claim you are saved by faith without works...
Does your bible say faith without works is dead.....?????
the scripture says.....
we are saved by grace through faith...and faith without works is dead.....

 

[mailmandan]

One establishes faith by works for if there are no works then there is no faith, it's dead.

Faith in Christ is established FIRST then we SHOW our established faith by our works. If there are not works to SHOW that our faith is genuine, then it was never established in the first place. Faith that is established is alive in Christ/created in Christ Jesus before it produces good works (Ephesians 2:5-10). A dead faith cannot produce anything because it's dead.

One cannot prove he even has faith without works is James' point.

Yes PROVE, not establish. How can one SHOW his faith by his works if faith is not established and dead? Explain to me how a dead faith that is not established as genuine faith in Christ can produce good works. Also explain to me how a dead tree that is not established can produce fruit.

Gen 15:6 "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

Yes, he BELIEVED in the Lord NOT he believed in the Lord AND accomplished something further and then he counted it to him for righteousness. Simply believed in the Lord. Not hard to understand, just hard for you to accept.

1) Gen 15:6 does not say "And he believed ONLY in the Lord" the word onlyh is added, assumed into the verse.

He simply believed in the Lord. The word "and something else" is added, assumed by you into the verse. Abraham believed in the Lord and his faith, not his works, were counted to him for righteousness MANY YEARS BEFORE HE OFFERED UP ISAAC ON THE ALTAR. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. You have to try really hard to explain away this simple truth.

(2) assuming "only" into Gen 15:6 ignores that Abraham's faith prior to Gen 15:6 contained obedience in moving from his house, land and kindred, Gen 12:1-4 and building altars to worship God, Gen 13:4.

Did God say that Abraham moved from his house, built altars and it was counted to him for righteousness? NO. Why are you focused on what Abraham did prior to believing God and having his faith counted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6, when his faith was established and counted to him for righteousness many years before Abraham was said to be justified by works in James 2:21. How can justified by works mean saved by works when his faith was already counted to him for righteousness?

(3) James also quotes Gen 15:6 (James 2:23) and ties works to that belief.

His work in Genesis 22 was the fruit of his belief, not the essence of his belief. The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham​ was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) - root; long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22 - fruit. In James 2:22, "made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean he was finally saved based on his works. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

(4) For one to argue Abraham was saved by "faith only" in Gen 15:6 implies that prior to Gen 15:6 Abraham was an unforgiven, lost reprobate. The context does not allow for that. GEn 15:1 would not be words God would speak to a lost reprobate.

Show me prior to Genesis 15:6 where Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness. So from the very first time that God spoke to Abraham, his faith was counted to him for righteousness before Genesis 15:6?

(5) Gen 22:12 would have been when Abraham was justified as James also points this out, James 2:21-24. It was God's final approval of Abraham as Abraham passed the tests given; him by God.

So you are saying that Abraham was still lost in his sins for those many years after he believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness before he offered up Isaac on the altar? Faith accounted as righteousness = unrighteous, lost? Is that also what it means in Romans 4:5-6? James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims he has faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Abraham's faith was approved in Genesis 15:6 and that's why it was counted to him for righteousness. It's not that complicated.

This final justification was not base upon any faith only but OBEDIENCE to God.

Show me where the Bible says "final" justification. You "added" the word "final". So in your flawed theology, there is an "initial" justification and a "final" justification? Abraham was justified "accounted as righteous" by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-3) and was "shown to be righteous" by works (James 2:21). That is the sense that Abraham was justified by works. Works bear out the justification that comes by faith. You need to rightly divide the word of truth.

Even ;though God foreknew what Abraham would do it still required Abraham perform the ACT of OBEDIENCE for God's final justification of Abraham.

Abraham was already justified/accounted as righteous based on his faith and not his works (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) long before he was justified/shown to be righteous by his works in James 2:21. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6, but Abraham was already saved through faith "faith counted for righteousness" long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith for all to see.

 

[SarahM777]

Why be careful? Acts 3:19 is very clear. Repent therefore and be converted that your sins may be blotted out.. Nothing about baptism.

It's not about were the people they spoke to later baptized. It's at what point were their sins blotted out. Acts 10:43 - whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. They received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed in Him/in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 10:45; 11:17) which is referred to as repentance unto life (vs. 18) BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

Do you understand what baptism was designed to be? It's original design was to be a STEP OF FAITH. To be baptized in the name of Jesus was putting one's neck on the line. Once they did so many lost their lively hoods,family,friends and were beaten,and killed for the faith. The westernized believers HAVE LOST that concept. Go to a Muslim or communist country and see if it just a simple matter of GETTING WET.