M
miktre
Guest
It's not wise to intentionally muddy the water, satan is the author of confusion.
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M
miktre
Guest
re: post #700 greatkraw
Also every time Christ quoted scripture from the O.T. did He go into detail about who the scripture was addressed to convey the message? Sure there lies more understanding when you look into whom it was addressed. However it's not required every time to convey a message. If it is, then to who are the four Gospels addressed?
Also every time Christ quoted scripture from the O.T. did He go into detail about who the scripture was addressed to convey the message? Sure there lies more understanding when you look into whom it was addressed. However it's not required every time to convey a message. If it is, then to who are the four Gospels addressed?
For those of you saying that if it didn’t come from Jesus then Paul’s words have to be twisted to support a pre-trib rapture:
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”
John 21:25
Not everything Jesus said and did was written down.
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
John 16:7-13
Jesus said there were many things he didn’t say because his listeners were not able to bear them, but it was the Holy Spirit who would come and speak those things to our hearts, and guide us into ALL truth, specifically the truth regarding things to come. They would not be the words of Paul or Peter or any other writer. The Holy Spirit speaks what he hears from God because he is God. Even the writer of Hebrews, speaking by the Holy Spirit, said there were things he still couldn’t share with his readers because they were dull of hearing. Remember that the Gospels were written by men who were with Jesus, not by Jesus sitting down with a scroll and writing them with his own hand. Paul said he didn’t receive the gospel he preached from man, but directly from Jesus:
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…”
1 Corinthians 11:23
“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 1:11-12
You either accept all of scripture as authoritatively, inspired directly from God with man as the vessel, or you can’t accept any of it.
That being said I will give the clearest words I know on the Christians right to hope, pray, and expect to be spared having to go through the Tribulation. These words are straight from the mouth of Jesus, and therefore cannot be attacked by the people who prefer one writer over another.
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Luke 21:36
This verse is directly after Jesus described the tribulation and events leading up to it. Jesus didn’t say suffering though these events were inevitable and that everyone will have to face it so just pray for strength to endure it all. Yes, if we are true Christians serving God with a pure heart, we will all face persecution. Different levels and types or persecution but we all face the trials and tribulation of the Christian life. Jesus said we would be hated because we are not of this world. However, with regards to the final time of judgment, Jesus COMMANDED us to watch and pray ALWAYS that we may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL of the events he had just described in and around the tribulation.
One more scripture on the matter and this should carry as much weight as the gospels for those who don’t want to hear anything else. This is written by John, (who wrote the Gospel of John) and he was writing exactly what Jesus was dictating directly to him.
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
Revelation 3:10
Bear in mind, I’m not aware of any scripture teaching that every professing Christian on the planet will be taken in a pre-trib rapture. Scripture is quite clear, especially in the two passages I just referenced, that it will only those who are accounted worthy. There are plenty of scriptures speaking of those that either miss the rapture, and/or receive Jesus during the tribulation through the evangelism of the 144,000 witnesses and thus are here to suffer through it. I believe the misunderstanding of that distinction is responsible for a lot of the confusion on this topic.
Either you accept that scripture is still valid for today or you relegate it to “long ago and far away.” As with the church at Philadelphia; if you relegate it to only that church and time, then you render obsolete nearly the entire the entire Bible. After all, none of it was addressed to you personally, much less the united states being mentioned. Again, you either accept all scripture as valid for today, or you can write off all of it when it suits your tastes. Personally I accept all scripture as, “…profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (1 Ti 3:16)
This will probably be my only post in this thread. If I wrote all my reasons for believing in the rapture it would take over 22 pages and that would only be copying and pasting the reasons I wrote down over 2 years ago. I don’t believe anyone is going to hell because they don’t believe in the rapture so I don’t generally feel compelled to convince the nay-sayers on this topic. It is questionable whether anyone is going to be in the rapture when they don’t believe in the rapture, and/or are out teaching against it and calling those who believe it deceived. That’s between them and God.
Bottom line, my Savior commanded me to pray always that I could be accounted worthy to escape all that is coming, and he promised that those who fit the description of Rev 3:7-12 would be kept from the hour of trial. If that was all I had it would be enough, but there are so many scriptures bouncing resounding in my heart that support it as well. As for me, I am praying to be accounted worthy to escape all that is coming, and claiming God’s promise to the righteous that they will be kept from that hour of trial.
I pray “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:17-19
“And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.”
John 21:25
Not everything Jesus said and did was written down.
“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.”
John 16:7-13
Jesus said there were many things he didn’t say because his listeners were not able to bear them, but it was the Holy Spirit who would come and speak those things to our hearts, and guide us into ALL truth, specifically the truth regarding things to come. They would not be the words of Paul or Peter or any other writer. The Holy Spirit speaks what he hears from God because he is God. Even the writer of Hebrews, speaking by the Holy Spirit, said there were things he still couldn’t share with his readers because they were dull of hearing. Remember that the Gospels were written by men who were with Jesus, not by Jesus sitting down with a scroll and writing them with his own hand. Paul said he didn’t receive the gospel he preached from man, but directly from Jesus:
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you…”
1 Corinthians 11:23
“But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
Galatians 1:11-12
You either accept all of scripture as authoritatively, inspired directly from God with man as the vessel, or you can’t accept any of it.
That being said I will give the clearest words I know on the Christians right to hope, pray, and expect to be spared having to go through the Tribulation. These words are straight from the mouth of Jesus, and therefore cannot be attacked by the people who prefer one writer over another.
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Luke 21:36
This verse is directly after Jesus described the tribulation and events leading up to it. Jesus didn’t say suffering though these events were inevitable and that everyone will have to face it so just pray for strength to endure it all. Yes, if we are true Christians serving God with a pure heart, we will all face persecution. Different levels and types or persecution but we all face the trials and tribulation of the Christian life. Jesus said we would be hated because we are not of this world. However, with regards to the final time of judgment, Jesus COMMANDED us to watch and pray ALWAYS that we may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL of the events he had just described in and around the tribulation.
One more scripture on the matter and this should carry as much weight as the gospels for those who don’t want to hear anything else. This is written by John, (who wrote the Gospel of John) and he was writing exactly what Jesus was dictating directly to him.
“Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”
Revelation 3:10
Bear in mind, I’m not aware of any scripture teaching that every professing Christian on the planet will be taken in a pre-trib rapture. Scripture is quite clear, especially in the two passages I just referenced, that it will only those who are accounted worthy. There are plenty of scriptures speaking of those that either miss the rapture, and/or receive Jesus during the tribulation through the evangelism of the 144,000 witnesses and thus are here to suffer through it. I believe the misunderstanding of that distinction is responsible for a lot of the confusion on this topic.
Either you accept that scripture is still valid for today or you relegate it to “long ago and far away.” As with the church at Philadelphia; if you relegate it to only that church and time, then you render obsolete nearly the entire the entire Bible. After all, none of it was addressed to you personally, much less the united states being mentioned. Again, you either accept all scripture as valid for today, or you can write off all of it when it suits your tastes. Personally I accept all scripture as, “…profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (1 Ti 3:16)
This will probably be my only post in this thread. If I wrote all my reasons for believing in the rapture it would take over 22 pages and that would only be copying and pasting the reasons I wrote down over 2 years ago. I don’t believe anyone is going to hell because they don’t believe in the rapture so I don’t generally feel compelled to convince the nay-sayers on this topic. It is questionable whether anyone is going to be in the rapture when they don’t believe in the rapture, and/or are out teaching against it and calling those who believe it deceived. That’s between them and God.
Bottom line, my Savior commanded me to pray always that I could be accounted worthy to escape all that is coming, and he promised that those who fit the description of Rev 3:7-12 would be kept from the hour of trial. If that was all I had it would be enough, but there are so many scriptures bouncing resounding in my heart that support it as well. As for me, I am praying to be accounted worthy to escape all that is coming, and claiming God’s promise to the righteous that they will be kept from that hour of trial.
I pray “That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Ephesians 1:17-19
Good question. I too have always been taught the pretrib rapture, and listen to Jack Van Impy. However the fact is the greatest scholars are not incorrect. most of the scholars from the apostle Paul to Polycarp, to Justin Martyr and so on were all post trib believers. Not until the 19th century did the pretrib begin to be taught. ( I wouldn't consider Jack Van impy a great scholar). whether the rapture was pre or post trib it would not change the way I pray read my Bible live my life or witness to others, but it would change how I see the end time events, and how I prepared my heart, mind, and spirit to confront them.
Thank you for your response Debbie.
The facts are Jesus taught the post trib rapture and so did Paul. for someone to teach pretrib, they must twist not only Paul's words around but Christ's as well.
The only part you quoted was a preface to multiple scriptures and supporting statements. Why not refute the scriptures? Why not explain why you believe we can't escape the tribulation when Jesus said we should pray to be accounted worth to escape ALL of the tribulation. He didn't say pray about escaping a little, he didn't even say most, he said pray to be accounted worthy to escape ALL that is coming. And he promised that a Christian fitting the description of those in the church at Philadelphia would be kept from that time. Explain to us why Jesus would instruct us to pray in such a manner, much less make such a promise if there was no way to escape it. He clearly wasn't simply referring to those hearers, city or time period because they passed long before the tribulation. Why would he include those verses in his Holy Word that was recorded for all ages if that promise was only valid for people in that city or time?
I could ask all kinds of other questions like, what is the difference between the body of Christ and the bride of Christ? The answer to that question has a lot of bearing on the pre-trib rapture and the post trib return. There are many such questions, but I'm keeping it simple:
Why did Jesus instruct us to pray that we would be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL that is coming and promise those who were worthy that they would be kept from that hour of trial? Why would Jesus do that if it was just a pipe dream?
O
oopsies
Guest
Thank you, that's what's needed but unfortunately, they will still be able to twist it to suit their needs. Take the parable of the bridesmaids for example.
M
miktre
Guest
Hey Soldier,
Good to see you friend
I'm going to address Luke 21because there is no disagreement ever between Paul and Christ.
The problem with the rapture theory is that it's always a verse by itself and one should need quite the active imagination to put all the little bits together when Christ himself paints the whole picture clearly.
Lets look at the entirety of Luke 21 and see the entire picture Christ gives us.
1And He looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2And He saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3And He said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Establishes that Christ is in the temple at this time. The meaning of the rich men and the poor widow having to do corruption that has befallen the Temple 'Mark 11:17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves' Who is the chief thief? That would be satan. Not only is he corrupting with the rich mens money he will try to steal the poor womans living soul.
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
So we know why and now we are going to find out when the temple shall be destroyed.
8.And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
'for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ' Who shall be coming in the endtimes? Satan will and the fallen angels the same ones He spoke of in Mt 24:24 the same ones He said that will have supernatural abilities. Then He says 'the time draweth near' but it is not time yet.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Fear not friend God will provide for these things must happen but still no end yet.
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
You still have nothing to fear.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Wait a second, now follow closely, the Lord goes back here and tells you what will happen before the events of the last three verses. You shall be delivered up for his names sake because you refuse to worship the false christ. Still no rapture yet to be mentioned.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
If God can't use you what good are you? He wants to use you to testify!
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Don't even plan what you are gonna say the Holy Spirit shall fill you and give you the words to say. Still no rapture yet.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Even your own family might be deceived because they believe that this is Christ when its really satan. 'and some of you shall they cause to be put to death' death is another name of satan[hebrews 2:14] It doesn't say you are dead but you are brought before satan and have been given a death sentence.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
The whole whole is under the spell but you refuse to bow to the fake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
You see? You belong to God. You shall live forever, no death.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.
Endure to the end friend
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
More things to look for but still no rapture. You better be getting on your way out of there now.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Just like Lot. The Lord did not fly him away He gave him a way out.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Vengence is the Lords it has begun.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Do you really think God is going to punish people for being parents? God forbid. He's warning those that have already partaken in the spiritual wedding with the false christ. Those that are not spiritually virgins. His bride shall be a virgin, not with child!
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
The labor pains of the earth begin and Gods bride shall rejoice and those that took pleasure in unrighteousness woe unto you
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Blessed be the Messiah, our Redeemer forever and ever Amen
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Ok Ok don't get excited now we have a parable so now we are going back and looking at more events before our Lords coming. This is not after verse 28. The parable of the fig tree can be lengthy so a complete study is better suited for another time.
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Study the word so you know whats going to happen and search the scriptures.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
But not you friend, for you let yourself receive the love of the truth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
He told us how to escape, not by flying away like a bunch of ducks in the winter but rather you shall STAND! and receive the love of Christ! Forever and ever Amen
37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
I'll address Rev 3:10 at a later when I have more time.
Good to see you friend
I'm going to address Luke 21because there is no disagreement ever between Paul and Christ.
The problem with the rapture theory is that it's always a verse by itself and one should need quite the active imagination to put all the little bits together when Christ himself paints the whole picture clearly.
Lets look at the entirety of Luke 21 and see the entire picture Christ gives us.
1And He looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.
2And He saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.
3And He said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:
4For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.
Establishes that Christ is in the temple at this time. The meaning of the rich men and the poor widow having to do corruption that has befallen the Temple 'Mark 11:17And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves' Who is the chief thief? That would be satan. Not only is he corrupting with the rich mens money he will try to steal the poor womans living soul.
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
So we know why and now we are going to find out when the temple shall be destroyed.
8.And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
'for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ' Who shall be coming in the endtimes? Satan will and the fallen angels the same ones He spoke of in Mt 24:24 the same ones He said that will have supernatural abilities. Then He says 'the time draweth near' but it is not time yet.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Fear not friend God will provide for these things must happen but still no end yet.
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
You still have nothing to fear.
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Wait a second, now follow closely, the Lord goes back here and tells you what will happen before the events of the last three verses. You shall be delivered up for his names sake because you refuse to worship the false christ. Still no rapture yet to be mentioned.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
If God can't use you what good are you? He wants to use you to testify!
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Don't even plan what you are gonna say the Holy Spirit shall fill you and give you the words to say. Still no rapture yet.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Even your own family might be deceived because they believe that this is Christ when its really satan. 'and some of you shall they cause to be put to death' death is another name of satan[hebrews 2:14] It doesn't say you are dead but you are brought before satan and have been given a death sentence.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
The whole whole is under the spell but you refuse to bow to the fake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
You see? You belong to God. You shall live forever, no death.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.
Endure to the end friend
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
More things to look for but still no rapture. You better be getting on your way out of there now.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Just like Lot. The Lord did not fly him away He gave him a way out.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Vengence is the Lords it has begun.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Do you really think God is going to punish people for being parents? God forbid. He's warning those that have already partaken in the spiritual wedding with the false christ. Those that are not spiritually virgins. His bride shall be a virgin, not with child!
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
The labor pains of the earth begin and Gods bride shall rejoice and those that took pleasure in unrighteousness woe unto you
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Blessed be the Messiah, our Redeemer forever and ever Amen
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
Ok Ok don't get excited now we have a parable so now we are going back and looking at more events before our Lords coming. This is not after verse 28. The parable of the fig tree can be lengthy so a complete study is better suited for another time.
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
Study the word so you know whats going to happen and search the scriptures.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
But not you friend, for you let yourself receive the love of the truth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
He told us how to escape, not by flying away like a bunch of ducks in the winter but rather you shall STAND! and receive the love of Christ! Forever and ever Amen
37And in the day time he was teaching in the temple; and at night he went out, and abode in the mount that is called the mount of Olives.
38And all the people came early in the morning to him in the temple, for to hear him.
I'll address Rev 3:10 at a later when I have more time.
If the pre-trib rapture wasn't recorded in the bible from Jesus's mouth then how important is the doctrine? Not very.
You could use this same argument to support whatever false doctrine and heresy you liked?
M
miktre
Guest
Luke 21: 35-36
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Psalm 124
1If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, now may Israel say;
2If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, when men rose up against us:
3Then they had swallowed us up quick, when their wrath was kindled against us:
4Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul:
5Then the proud waters had gone over our soul.
6Blessed be the LORD, who hath not given us as a prey to their teeth.
7Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
Interesting how often the snare is associated with birds and here we are likened to a bird in a snare. Think not the Lord knew of the coming false 'fly away' doctrine? "the snare is broken' What breaks it? The truth of coarse and then we are escaped
8Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Psalm 124
1If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, now may Israel say;
2If it had not been the LORD who was on our side, when men rose up against us:
3Then they had swallowed us up quick, when their wrath was kindled against us:
4Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul:
5Then the proud waters had gone over our soul.
6Blessed be the LORD, who hath not given us as a prey to their teeth.
7Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.
Interesting how often the snare is associated with birds and here we are likened to a bird in a snare. Think not the Lord knew of the coming false 'fly away' doctrine? "the snare is broken' What breaks it? The truth of coarse and then we are escaped
8Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.
Luke 21:36 Watch you therefore, and pray always, that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
At first glance this seems to be a compelling argument for the pretrib rapture, until you take time to read what it is actually saying. Pray always that you may be able to ''ESCAPE'' the things that shall come to pass. This actually disproves the pretrib rapture. You can not escape anything you have not first taken part in. You can not escape a abusive relationship if you were never in a abusive relationship. You can not escape prison without first being incarcerated and so on and so one. We will not be able to escape the things happening during the tribulation if we are never going to be in the tribulation. Another problem with their interpretation of this verse is that they ignore the rest the Luke 21. Verses 8-35 make it obvious that we will be here during the tribulation. Going as far as to say in verse 22-28 that not until the worse of the tribulation has begun, should we begin to lift our heads and look for our redemption.
Luke 21:22-28
22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great stress upon the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall upon the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentile be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and waves roaring;
26 Mens hearts falling them for fear, and for looking after those thins that are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
Once the tribulation has started, and these things begin to happen, that is when we will really know that Jesus' return is close, that are redemption is drawing near. We will indeed escape evil, but not by missing the tribulation, nor by being snatch into Heaven, but by divine protection here on earth.
C
ChristsArmorBearer
Guest
My personal study has lead me to conclude that events that unfold during the tribulation mirror perfectly that which occured during the exchange between Moses and Pharoah during the time of the Exodus, although on a world wide scale. During the entire Exodus account, God did indeed preserve the Hebrews despite the Hebrews being physically located in Egypt. I have no reason to doubt that God would preserve His people during the tribulation as well. Just a point to ponder....
Originally Posted by Soldier_Of_Christ
Why did Jesus instruct us to pray that we would be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL that is coming and promise those who were worthy that they would be kept from that hour of trial? Why would Jesus do that if it was just a pipe dream?
Excellent point Armor, matter of fact removing us would go against the prayers of Christ Himself.
John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
C
ChristsArmorBearer
Guest
I was taught to believe in a pre-trib rapture also but have since changed my mind. Originally I was taught that when Christ returned in a pre-rapture the tribulation began immediately afterward, the Jew had 7 years to repent and the gentile had no chance of reconciliation whatsoever. However, Romans Chapter 11 has played a huge role to play in my decission to believe in a post trib rapture.
In this chapter Paul is adressing the gentile church in Rome not to fall into the same snare as the Jews by believing that the gentile believer is somehow superior to the Jews (basically the same sin, "self righteousness", responsible for the Jew missing the time of their Messianic vistitaion). Paul also goes on to say that one major reason as to why God gave the gospel to the gentileis is to provoke the Jew to jelousy. This lead to me to this question "How can the church provoke the Jew to jealousy if the church is not even present during the alleged alotted time set aside for Jewish reconconciliation according to this theology?"
Another highlight of this chapter which lead me to doubt prte-trib theology is verse 15 which reads: "For if their (jewish) rejection is the reconciliation of the world (gentile), what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Since scripture reveals to us that Christ Himself is the ressurection then for Paul to say that the Jewish acceptance of Christ would lead to "life from the dead" seems to indicate something even more significant than what occured because of their rejection which was the reconciliation of the entire world! Which brings 1 Thess 4:16 to mind:
"For the LordHimself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
Could it be that the reconciliation of the Jew be a key component that motivates Christ to return to earth?
In this chapter Paul is adressing the gentile church in Rome not to fall into the same snare as the Jews by believing that the gentile believer is somehow superior to the Jews (basically the same sin, "self righteousness", responsible for the Jew missing the time of their Messianic vistitaion). Paul also goes on to say that one major reason as to why God gave the gospel to the gentileis is to provoke the Jew to jelousy. This lead to me to this question "How can the church provoke the Jew to jealousy if the church is not even present during the alleged alotted time set aside for Jewish reconconciliation according to this theology?"
Another highlight of this chapter which lead me to doubt prte-trib theology is verse 15 which reads: "For if their (jewish) rejection is the reconciliation of the world (gentile), what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Since scripture reveals to us that Christ Himself is the ressurection then for Paul to say that the Jewish acceptance of Christ would lead to "life from the dead" seems to indicate something even more significant than what occured because of their rejection which was the reconciliation of the entire world! Which brings 1 Thess 4:16 to mind:
"For the LordHimself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."
Could it be that the reconciliation of the Jew be a key component that motivates Christ to return to earth?
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G
greatkraw
Guest
I have now shifted my position.
WE all get what we want.
Those who want to go through some or all of the Tribulation will get to do so.
Of course they will have to have the Holy Spirit taken from them as God needs to take Him out of the world so He is free to judge it and the Antichrist is no longer hindered from arising.
This means that the Sealing work of the Holy Spirit is not so much like 'superglue' (as I formerly imagined) but more like 'velcro' or 'blutak'.
WE all get what we want.
Those who want to go through some or all of the Tribulation will get to do so.
Of course they will have to have the Holy Spirit taken from them as God needs to take Him out of the world so He is free to judge it and the Antichrist is no longer hindered from arising.
This means that the Sealing work of the Holy Spirit is not so much like 'superglue' (as I formerly imagined) but more like 'velcro' or 'blutak'.
J
JesusFreak4life
Guest
i am meeting Him in the air also.I am not going through the tribulation. amen. i have recently read Revelations and will start again in January. if anyone is interested in a discussion please let me know.
J
JesusFreak4life
Guest
Not according to scripture.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
This is one of the stupidest things I ever heard. If the rapture was pretrib all true Christians would be raptured whether they were pre or post trib, and the fact that someone falsely believes pretrib does not mean that they will be rapture pretrib.
No according to scripture.
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
C
ChristsArmorBearer
Guest
Satan already inhabits the earth. If not then why did Satan tempt Christ with all the kingdoms of the earth? Also read the first chapter of Job. In fact Satan has roamed the earth since since being cast out of heaven. Hell was created as a prison for Satan and his angels and scriptually will not be sent their until he is bound and sent their for the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.