144,000

[Straightshot]

"I have never heard it put that way, even with all the different main stream biblical scholars I have read or listened to.
It would be an accepted look at it, still most that I have seen stay to the 1948 generation. The only debate is rather it refers to those just living at that time, or referring to those who were born in that year."


Kenneth

It is possible that the Lord was looking at the generation of Israel living in the land at the tiem of the end during the 70 week decreed, the time of Jacob's trouble

He is for sure speaking of a returned remnant to the land at the time

However, what I see is that He uses the term "generation" in terms of the two judgments .... the flood and the tribulation

Many have assumed the view of many prophecy teachers that you hold, but what happens is that when 60 years or more transpire from 1948 and the tribulation has not come, this can generate doubt for many which might not be a good thing

He has told us that know one can know the dating ...... and yet many try to figure it out

I believe He has it well hidden and has give no way for any to date it by calculating a time lapse of an average human generation from 1948

In fact, the beginning of His intervention could come before this day is over .... or it could be much longer

This is why He has said for us to be "ready" at any time

 

[Jillyanne]

Because the church will be gone, caught up in the twinkling of an eye.

I know that, it was rhetorical question because EG is talking in circles.

 

[Jillyanne]

Because the church will be gone, caught up in the twinkling of an eye.

it was rhetorical question, and I agree w u but don't think eg does

 

[Straightshot]

"Because the church will be gone, caught up in the twinkling of an eye."


This is part of the correct answer

Here is the other part .... it is essential for Israel to turn to Him during the tribulation and this will require the powerful witness of the supernaturally protected 144000 preachers

Their very presence will serve to turn many of Israel to their Messiah and King .... just as will His two supernaturally protected prophets who will also be Israelites

Some Gentiles of the nations will also turn during the period, but not a large number ..... most of these will be unbelievers, die in the tribulation and lost forever

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know that, it was rhetorical question because EG is talking in circles.

I am? can you explain?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it was rhetorical question, and I agree w u but don't think eg does

why do you say that?

 

[Jillyanne]

"Because the church will be gone, caught up in the twinkling of an eye."


This is part of the correct answer

Here is the other part .... it is essential for Israel to turn to Him during the tribulation and this will require the powerful witness of the supernaturally protected 144000 preachers

Their very presence will serve to turn many of Israel to their Messiah and King .... just as will His two supernaturally protected prophets who will also be Israelites

So, once the church is gone, will those that come to repentance be through grace or through enduring til the end aka works?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why does God need to select 144,000 Jews for a witness if the church is still present?

two possible answers.

1. The falling away has occurred, the church has been perverted so bad that there are not enough real believers left
2. The rapture of the church

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, once the church is gone, will those that come to repentance be through grace or through enduring til the end aka works?

good question.

By faith. Just like abraham was saved. by faith.

 

[Brother_Don]

!2,000 tribe of Judah or Jews, 12,000 tribe of reuben, 12, 000 tribe of Gad, 12,000 tribe of Aser, 12,000 tribe of Nepthalim, 12,000 Manasses, 12,000 tribe of Simeon, 12,000 tribe of Levi, 12,000 tribe of Issachar, 12,000 tribe of Zabulon 12,000 tribe of Joseph, 12,000 tribe of Benjamin, = 144,000.

 

[Straightshot]

So, once the church is gone, will those that come to repentance be through grace or through enduring til the end aka works?


No .... saved just like humans are today ..... and they will favor Israel [the Lord's brethren, kin] during the period [Matthew 25:31-46]

The works that follow those that are martyred are not requirements for their salvation, but will be for reward in heaven [Revelation 14:13]

Those of Israel will also be saved just as we are today

 

[kennethcadwell]

"I have never heard it put that way, even with all the different main stream biblical scholars I have read or listened to.
It would be an accepted look at it, still most that I have seen stay to the 1948 generation. The only debate is rather it refers to those just living at that time, or referring to those who were born in that year."


Kenneth

It is possible that the Lord was looking at the generation of Israel living in the land at the tiem of the end during the 70 week decreed, the time of Jacob's trouble

He is for sure speaking of a returned remnant to the land at the time

However, what I see is that He uses the term "generation" in terms of the two judgments .... the flood and the tribulation

Many have assumed the view of many prophecy teachers that you hold, but what happens is that when 60 years or more transpire from 1948 and the tribulation has not come, this can generate doubt for many which might not be a good thing

He has told us that know one can know the dating ...... and yet many try to figure it out

I believe He has it well hidden and has give no way for any to date it by calculating a time lapse of an average human generation from 1948

In fact, the beginning of His intervention could come before this day is over .... or it could be much longer

This is why He has said for us to be "ready" at any time

He was talking about His return when He said nobody would know the time and day.
He did tell us of signs to know when we are in the tribulation period, or just in the beginning of birth pains though. He said when you see these things happen you know where you are at in the list of events, however Him coming back as a thief in the night is about when He calls His church home. ( Rapture )
It can not be referring to when He comes back appearing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jews standing beside Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So, once the church is gone, will those that come to repentance be through grace or through enduring til the end aka works?

The enduring to the end to be saved applies to all of us, the thing people don't want to accept is that Jesus says it twice.
The first time when He sends the Apostles out to minister to the rest of the Jews, and then again when He is talking about the end days, tribulation period. Why would us in between have any different command ???

( Sending the Apostles out to minister )

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


( Tribulation period )

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

 

[Jillyanne]

good question.

By faith. Just like abraham was saved. by faith.

the Old Testament saints were under the law and sin required a blood sacrifice...aka lambs blood....the cross was the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world...the final Lamb, Jesus Christ ushered in GRACE through faith through the Holy Spirit .once the church age is over and raptured, Holy Spirit which is how we are sealed is removed from earth then God will then turn to Israel once again (works)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

the Old Testament saints were under the law and sin required a blood sacrifice...aka lambs blood....the cross was the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world...the final Lamb, Jesus Christ ushered in GRACE through faith through the Holy Spirit .once the church age is over and raptured, Holy Spirit which is how we are sealed is removed from earth then God will then turn to Israel once again (works)

Hebrews shows us the blood of animals NEVER took away sin. They were saved by faith then. Just like we are today. They looked forward to Gods provision, we look back, but it was still of faith.'

Study psalms, You will see how david understood sacrifice could not remove his sin.

I used to be taught God will return to law also. I have since come out of that teaching. The law can never save anyone, never could.

 

[Jillyanne]

Then why in the world did he die on the cross?

 

[Straightshot]

Kenneth

His return will be to do two things, one after the other .... immortalize his true ecclesia of the both the dead and living ..... and He will immediately administer His judgments upon an unbelieving world .... He will do both personally

He will not be seen by earth dwellers during the tribulation ..... but will appear visibly just after [Zechariah 14]

His splitting of the mount of olives will occur at the middle of the tribulation period for the routing of Israel to the east for their protection [Matthew 24:15-16]

The 144000 .... a different matter .... these will be sealed just before just before His judgments begin in Revelation 8

And they will take the gospel of the kingdom first to Israel and then to the nations of the gentiles during the tribulation

Seeing them on Mount Zion [in Jerusalem] with the Lord gives insight that He will lead them in the process .... they will be aware of His presence just as were the apostles .... He will dispatch them from Jerusalem just before the first judgment falls upon the earth [Revelation 6:12-17; 8:6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then why in the world did he die on the cross?

to do what the law could never do. Save us (and them)

 

[Bookends]

the Old Testament saints were under the law and sin required a blood sacrifice...aka lambs blood....the cross was the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the world...the final Lamb, Jesus Christ ushered in GRACE through faith through the Holy Spirit .once the church age is over and raptured, Holy Spirit which is how we are sealed is removed from earth then God will then turn to Israel once again (works)

Then your eschatology is going back to temple, priest and sacrifice...trampling the blood of Christ. Why would God go backward to a covenant that God considered incomplete? Hebrews 8:6-7
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
[h=3]A New Covenant[/h]7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.

 

[Straightshot]

"to do what the law could never do. Save us (and them)"


EG is correct .... it is just that simple