Christ was tempted LIKE as we are, but He never desired or was tempted to do evil.
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I am not lying. You said Jesus was not good and agreed with another that this was so, as well. You believe Hebrews 4 is talking about Jesus being tempted internally. This can only work if He struggled with some kind of sin within Him whether it be a sin nature or whatever you want to call it. I asked you questions to explain it but you ignored them. Yet we both know, that no internal struggle would exist if Jesus is truly God to you. We both know that nobody can be tempted internally if they don't have a wrong desire inside for certain bad things. God cannot be tempted. For God is Holy. Jesus is Holy. How can God (Christ) be tempted if God cannot be tempted?
Are you serious? Listen to yourself. Do you truly not understand the difference between internal temptation and external temptation? It's not rocket science. It's a part of life, my friend. And if you were a real Christian you would not speak to me in such a hateful and disrespectful way that you are doing now. Christians are supposed to be loving and good towards all people (Especially the brethren). I just don't get that from you. I am striving to be patient and kind with you dear sir, but you seriously do not make it is easy. Christians are known by how they love. It is one of the major fruits of the Spirit. Prove that Christ be in you, my friend. Love. Love God and love others here for a change.
Are you serious? Listen to yourself. Do you truly not understand the difference between internal temptation and external temptation? It's not rocket science. It's a part of life, my friend. And if you were a real Christian you would not speak to me in such a hateful and disrespectful way that you are doing now. Christians are supposed to be loving and good towards all people (Especially the brethren). I just don't get that from you. I am striving to be patient and kind with you dear sir, but you seriously do not make it is easy. Christians are known by how they love. It is one of the major fruits of the Spirit. Prove that Christ be in you, my friend. Love. Love God and love others here for a change.
Yes, I agree. Jesus felt sorrow, pain, etc. The Eternal Son of God (Who is one within the Godhead) in the flesh felt this.
Jesus was tempted externally. There is no proof Jesus struggled with a sin nature, nor did Jesus think or consider in doing evil (Which has to exist if Jesus were to be tempted internally). For you can't have Jesus Christ be the Light of the world if there was darknesss within Him that tempted Him internally. No internal temptation can exist for God and Jesus Christ is God. For God cannot be tempted because He is Holy and incapable of sinning. Folks are trying to take a scapel and cut out the goodness of God in Christ and say that He can be tempted internally. Yet, the Scriptures say God cannot be tempted. Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 is talking about external temptation.
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead and is connected with God the Father. They cannot be separated from each other or disagree with each other. Otherwise you would have a fracture within the Godhead, and such a thing is not possible because God who is one is perfect in all that He does. Do you believe God is perfect in all He does thru out time? I do.
Jesus never failed. Not once. Jesus did not faulter in His prayer to the Father. He did not refuse the cup. Jesus did not claim He was separated from the Father on the cross. Jesus quoted a Psalm of David (i.e. Psalm 22) that proves that God the Father never leaves nor forsakes His own. God cannot be separated; Otherwise you have two gods; And Christians are not polytheists. The Israelites worship the same God that we do today. They just did not know the name of Jesus, though. But they worshiped Him. For there is no salvation in any other name.
Jesus Christ does not have a human soul or human spirit. That is a false teaching. Jesus Christ has an eternal divine soul and spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Jesus said He came down from Heaven. Jesus did not say, He came down from Heaven as a new creation or that He came down from heaven to inhabit the soul of a man. The Scriptures say that the fulness of the Godhead dwells within him bodily. The Scriptures do not say that the fulness of the Godhead dwells within him both body and soul. Micah 5:2 says that the Messiah is from everlasting. The Scriptures do not say that that Christ came into being. The OT Scriptures mention how He is called the Son of God and the Son of Man. OT Scripture says there is no Savior besdies God. So Jesus cannot be some kind of new creation with some kind of new human soul and spirit, etc (i.e. an amalgam mixed mess of human spirit and divine spirit). The Scriptures never say that.
Jesus was tempted externally. There is no proof Jesus struggled with a sin nature, nor did Jesus think or consider in doing evil (Which has to exist if Jesus were to be tempted internally). For you can't have Jesus Christ be the Light of the world if there was darknesss within Him that tempted Him internally. No internal temptation can exist for God and Jesus Christ is God. For God cannot be tempted because He is Holy and incapable of sinning. Folks are trying to take a scapel and cut out the goodness of God in Christ and say that He can be tempted internally. Yet, the Scriptures say God cannot be tempted. Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 is talking about external temptation.
Jesus is the second person of the Godhead and is connected with God the Father. They cannot be separated from each other or disagree with each other. Otherwise you would have a fracture within the Godhead, and such a thing is not possible because God who is one is perfect in all that He does. Do you believe God is perfect in all He does thru out time? I do.
Jesus never failed. Not once. Jesus did not faulter in His prayer to the Father. He did not refuse the cup. Jesus did not claim He was separated from the Father on the cross. Jesus quoted a Psalm of David (i.e. Psalm 22) that proves that God the Father never leaves nor forsakes His own. God cannot be separated; Otherwise you have two gods; And Christians are not polytheists. The Israelites worship the same God that we do today. They just did not know the name of Jesus, though. But they worshiped Him. For there is no salvation in any other name.
Jesus Christ does not have a human soul or human spirit. That is a false teaching. Jesus Christ has an eternal divine soul and spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh. Jesus said He came down from Heaven. Jesus did not say, He came down from Heaven as a new creation or that He came down from heaven to inhabit the soul of a man. The Scriptures say that the fulness of the Godhead dwells within him bodily. The Scriptures do not say that the fulness of the Godhead dwells within him both body and soul. Micah 5:2 says that the Messiah is from everlasting. The Scriptures do not say that that Christ came into being. The OT Scriptures mention how He is called the Son of God and the Son of Man. OT Scripture says there is no Savior besdies God. So Jesus cannot be some kind of new creation with some kind of new human soul and spirit, etc (i.e. an amalgam mixed mess of human spirit and divine spirit). The Scriptures never say that.
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As I stated before within this thread many times already, Jesus did not reject in going to the cross in this moment. Jesus did not have a moment of weakness. Jesus here was not outside the Father's will. Jesus was simply asking the Father if there was another way to save us, but then He instantly knew that there was no other way and He quickly agreed with the Father's plan to save us by going to the cross. Remember, Jesus said if it is POSSIBLE let this cup pass. This was not a refusal of going to the cross, but it was Jesus exploring with the Father (If there was some other way). If Jesus did not truly want to go to the cross, then he would have said to the Father that He just didn't want to do it despite the Father's will. So there was no refusal of receiving the cup from the Father. Jesus asked if it was POSSIBLE to the Father (Seeking the Father's will). Jesus never refused the cup. He was merely asking if there was some other way (Just to be sure). In fact, if Jesus did refuse in going to the cross, by his statement of "let this cup pass from me" then Jesus would be hypocritcal for rebuking Peter when Peter did not desire Jesus to go to the cross. Jesus went so far as to call Peter.... Satan for suggesting such a thing.
In addition, you said before within this thread that Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God creates evil when this clearly is not what it says according to the context. That is another reason I said you believe that God has the potential do do evil. I say this not to wound you dear brother, but to show you that what you have been saying does not add up with what you want to believe about God in how He is good.
Anyways, I love you in Christ Jesus.
Peace be unto you and please be well.
Please know I am not perfect, but only Jesus Christ is perfect.
For His love and goodness is so much more than we can imagine. I am trying to get folks here to simply realize that fact (According to the Scriptures).
Anyways, I love you in Christ Jesus.
Peace be unto you and please be well.
Please know I am not perfect, but only Jesus Christ is perfect.
For His love and goodness is so much more than we can imagine. I am trying to get folks here to simply realize that fact (According to the Scriptures).
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Was Jesus birthed from a women on earth ? This is an experience God never went through in eternity, but He did for us when He was born to Mary. He had a real flesh mother. This means He had a mind, feelings, and will, He also had His divine Spirit with Him from the beginning to help Him, the same potent Spirit that we have today. This is why we have the same power over sin He had, once receiving His Spirit. He was stronger minded, willed, and felt more then we do though...He showed this experience of life can be beat, sinless, He was extraordinary in this sense, His Father was literally in heaven but was born and has come thru the flesh. If you want to call it external tempting .. Whatever, it's still fact that Jesus was confronted, and He beat it, every time in the flesh.
Now let me ask you a question, when Jesus was beat allll the way to the crucifixion was that external pain, or internal ?
Now let me ask you a question, when Jesus was beat allll the way to the crucifixion was that external pain, or internal ?
First of all you attributed to me things I never said so you are lying which you seen to do quite regularly
Second all I did was quote scripture that Jesus quoted and agreed with someone that quoted the same scripture so another false hood by you.
Third your opinion means jack at the end of the day....
QUOTE 2 sets of scripture that PROVES INTERNAL and or EXTERNAL temptations in the manner that you are trying to twist the temptation of Jesus to....
You cant do it as I have asked three times and all you do is come back with supposition and opinion...Jason your view is false period and EVERYBODY that has disagreed with you with you which is almost everyone has proven your stance wrong and your refuse to humble yourself and accept the truth so...keep posting heresy!
Second all I did was quote scripture that Jesus quoted and agreed with someone that quoted the same scripture so another false hood by you.
Third your opinion means jack at the end of the day....
QUOTE 2 sets of scripture that PROVES INTERNAL and or EXTERNAL temptations in the manner that you are trying to twist the temptation of Jesus to....
You cant do it as I have asked three times and all you do is come back with supposition and opinion...Jason your view is false period and EVERYBODY that has disagreed with you with you which is almost everyone has proven your stance wrong and your refuse to humble yourself and accept the truth so...keep posting heresy!
Yes, Jesus was born physically of the virgin Mary. However, nowhere does the Scriptures say He had a human soul or human spirit. The Scriptures say that He was the Word made flesh. The Scriptures say He came down from Heaven and that He was not a new almagam of human soul and divine soul.
Christ's mind, feelings, and will are eternal and are exclusively from the Spirit of Christ (or the second person of the Godhead) who is Spirit and eternal. There was no human soul or human spirit involved. The flesh was just a temple. He said so Himself.
No, this borderlines into the New Age teaching. For many new age folks believe that Jesus was just some guy who was lucky to have tapped really well into somee God like power or Christ consciousness; And we can do the same thing. Hurray! Let's celebrate! We can be exactly like Jesus or God, too. No. We cannot be the actual be the Holy Son of God. Nobody could do that. Such a thing would be blasphemy. Yes, we are to conform to His image, but we cannot actually be Jesus Christ. There was no divine Spirit added to a human soul of a man. No new age Christ consciosness. Jesus was nothing like us. He was the Holy Son of God. The Word made flesh. We are not the Word made flesh. He was not just some man with the Son of God living within Him like us. 1 John 4:3 says we are to confess that Jesus Christ came into the flesh and not the other way around. Meaning, it was not the Word who came down to live within some guy who then became Jesus Christ. 1 John 4:3 says we are to confess that Jesus Christ came into the flesh. In other words, Jesus Christ existed before He came into the flesh. That is what 1 John 4:3 is saying. To deny such a statement is antichrist. Jesus said, He came down from Heaven. Do you believe that? Scripture also says the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Christ bodily. There is no mention of the Godhead dwelling in Christ both body and soul. There is no mention of a human soul.
So this man just tapped into the Christ consciousness? He was stronger and faster and better? He was like some chosen physical man? If that is what you believe that this is simply not true. Christ or the Word (Who is Spirit) took on the body of a man. No human soul. No human spirit. No guy receiving some special new age Christ consciousness.
Do you understand the difference between internal temptation and external temptation? A man can externally tempt a blind man (born blind) to go into a strip club to look at women lustfully. But the blind man cannot be tempted internally by these women with his eye sight because he has never seen a woman before. It's the same with Jesus Christ who is the Eternal Son of God who came into the flesh. Jesus was tempted externally by the devil and other sinful people, but Jesus Christ being God does not have the capacity to sin or do evil, so He was not tempted internally.
Jesus Christ beat the devil because He is the Son of God and not just some guy who tapped into the power of God.
The Son of God as Spirit felt pain and sorrow before He took on a physical body. When Christ took on a physical body, He felt the pain of that body when He was beaten. But that does not equate with Christ being tempted internally, though. They are not the same thing. The Scriptures say God cannot be tempted; And Jesus is God. However, if you wrongfully believe Jesus had a human soul, then yes, I can see how you might think Christ might have been tempted internally. But Christ did not possess some baby at birth. The Eternal Word or Christ (Who is Spirit) was exclusively the soul and Spirit of that baby. Christ was still Christ as Spirit and still God like He had always been. No human soul or spirit was mixed in with the Holy Son of God. Christ was not any different in His being as God. God does not change in how He behaves no matter the circumstances.
Christ's mind, feelings, and will are eternal and are exclusively from the Spirit of Christ (or the second person of the Godhead) who is Spirit and eternal. There was no human soul or human spirit involved. The flesh was just a temple. He said so Himself.
No, this borderlines into the New Age teaching. For many new age folks believe that Jesus was just some guy who was lucky to have tapped really well into somee God like power or Christ consciousness; And we can do the same thing. Hurray! Let's celebrate! We can be exactly like Jesus or God, too. No. We cannot be the actual be the Holy Son of God. Nobody could do that. Such a thing would be blasphemy. Yes, we are to conform to His image, but we cannot actually be Jesus Christ. There was no divine Spirit added to a human soul of a man. No new age Christ consciosness. Jesus was nothing like us. He was the Holy Son of God. The Word made flesh. We are not the Word made flesh. He was not just some man with the Son of God living within Him like us. 1 John 4:3 says we are to confess that Jesus Christ came into the flesh and not the other way around. Meaning, it was not the Word who came down to live within some guy who then became Jesus Christ. 1 John 4:3 says we are to confess that Jesus Christ came into the flesh. In other words, Jesus Christ existed before He came into the flesh. That is what 1 John 4:3 is saying. To deny such a statement is antichrist. Jesus said, He came down from Heaven. Do you believe that? Scripture also says the fulness of the Godhead dwelled within Christ bodily. There is no mention of the Godhead dwelling in Christ both body and soul. There is no mention of a human soul.
So this man just tapped into the Christ consciousness? He was stronger and faster and better? He was like some chosen physical man? If that is what you believe that this is simply not true. Christ or the Word (Who is Spirit) took on the body of a man. No human soul. No human spirit. No guy receiving some special new age Christ consciousness.
Do you understand the difference between internal temptation and external temptation? A man can externally tempt a blind man (born blind) to go into a strip club to look at women lustfully. But the blind man cannot be tempted internally by these women with his eye sight because he has never seen a woman before. It's the same with Jesus Christ who is the Eternal Son of God who came into the flesh. Jesus was tempted externally by the devil and other sinful people, but Jesus Christ being God does not have the capacity to sin or do evil, so He was not tempted internally.
Jesus Christ beat the devil because He is the Son of God and not just some guy who tapped into the power of God.
The Son of God as Spirit felt pain and sorrow before He took on a physical body. When Christ took on a physical body, He felt the pain of that body when He was beaten. But that does not equate with Christ being tempted internally, though. They are not the same thing. The Scriptures say God cannot be tempted; And Jesus is God. However, if you wrongfully believe Jesus had a human soul, then yes, I can see how you might think Christ might have been tempted internally. But Christ did not possess some baby at birth. The Eternal Word or Christ (Who is Spirit) was exclusively the soul and Spirit of that baby. Christ was still Christ as Spirit and still God like He had always been. No human soul or spirit was mixed in with the Holy Son of God. Christ was not any different in His being as God. God does not change in how He behaves no matter the circumstances.
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I have asked three times for scriptures in context that prove internal and external temptation in the way he twists it about Jesus and His temptation and he cannot give them...all he does is come back with opinion, supposition and then lies about what I say and attributes things to me like saying Jesus was evil, sinned etc. because I say Jesus was tempted like we are tempted...which denies the very reason for the temptation of Jesus.
He thinks we are Christadelphians... I think.
I think he's just in over his head, and trying to swim without his Holy Spirit floaties. (patent pending?)
Much of his errors are in misunderstanding what it really means for Christ to be the 2nd Adam.
He'll be alright, as long as he doesn't go teaching this stuff to young kids or the weak-willed.
I think he's just in over his head, and trying to swim without his Holy Spirit floaties. (patent pending?)
Much of his errors are in misunderstanding what it really means for Christ to be the 2nd Adam.
He'll be alright, as long as he doesn't go teaching this stuff to young kids or the weak-willed.
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Actually, people just don't do their own homework (or truly study to show themselves approved unto God). Look up the Greek Lexicon of the word "tempted" and you will see that one of it's definitions is "tested." Certain Modern Translations use this word "tested" in the passage in Hebrews. The KJV online dictionary defines "tempted" as a trial. Even the origin of the word "tempt" has the word "test" in it's definition. In other words, if I say Jesus was "tested" in all points like us, it takes on an entirely different meaning that what many people want it to say. Therefore, they create some false theology on a misunderstanding of just one word within Scripture.
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Well, unless you believe Jesus had a sin nature and that Jesus needed salvation and was less then God, then no.
Please do not make jokes involving the Holy Spirit. God would not be pleased in you doing that.
I believe Christ is the Last Adam (2nd Adam) and by Christ's resurrection we will one day rise physically in new bodies like He has. If His body, was corrupted by sin or death in some way, then we could not rise to new life in Him. Jesus only temporariy took on sin in the Garden and paid the price for sin with his death and then conquered the punishment of death with His resurrection.
Please, let's not be condescending and insulting here. We are not here to bash each other but to discuss the Bible in love and respect.
Please do not make jokes involving the Holy Spirit. God would not be pleased in you doing that.
I believe Christ is the Last Adam (2nd Adam) and by Christ's resurrection we will one day rise physically in new bodies like He has. If His body, was corrupted by sin or death in some way, then we could not rise to new life in Him. Jesus only temporariy took on sin in the Garden and paid the price for sin with his death and then conquered the punishment of death with His resurrection.
Please, let's not be condescending and insulting here. We are not here to bash each other but to discuss the Bible in love and respect.
Mar_1:13 And he was in the wilderness forty days tempted of Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.
Mar 1:13 ויהי שם במדבר ארבעים יום והשטן נסהו ויהי עם־החיות והמלאכים שרתוהו׃
Mar 1:13 And he was there in the wildernesse fourtie daies tempted of Satan, and was with the wildbeasts, and the Angels ministred vnto him.
peirazo
This sounds like Paul´s: Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual, but I am not. I am so human. Sin rules me as if I were its slave. Rom 7:15 I don't understand why I act the way I do. I don't do the good I want to do, and I do the evil I hate.
Rom 7:16 And if I don't want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me--I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don't do it.
Rom 7:19 I don't do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20 So if I do what I don't want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me.
Rom 7:22 In my mind I am happy with God's law.
Rom 7:16 And if I don't want to do what I do, that means I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17 But I am not really the one doing the evil. It is sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:18 Yes, I know that nothing good lives in me--I mean nothing good lives in the part of me that is not spiritual. I want to do what is good, but I don't do it.
Rom 7:19 I don't do the good that I want to do. I do the evil that I don't want to do.
Rom 7:20 So if I do what I don't want to do, then I am not really the one doing it. It is the sin living in me that does it.
Rom 7:21 So I have learned this rule: When I want to do good, evil is there with me.
Rom 7:22 In my mind I am happy with God's law.
Now he's saying I'm describing some man.... NO Jason, he's not some man, He is a piece of God, His Father is in heaven. He has BOTH chromosomes from FATHER and mother. He was like us in every way, but had the MIND of GOD, feelings and will. He had Gods soul, GOD CREATED THE SOUL, and it is HIS, Spirt that lives in us, I'm not God, I don't have the mind of God, my mind is being renewed to think like He thinks, but I still have to battle the flesh of TWO earthly PARENTS. It is still possible to walk as He walked, as He said FOLLOW ME, He is also My Father, .. Does this make sense to you ?
Most Christians are wrong for believing that Romans chapter 7 is talking about Paul struggling with sin as a Christian. Actually, Paul is speaking to his ex Jewish brothers (or those trying to keep the Law of Moses). He is referring to his experience as an outward Jew (Before He came to Christ) trying to obey the Law. Paul gives these outward Jews the solution to overcome their struggle to keep the Law with Romans 8:1 (in the next chapter).
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.
Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
#1. Paul is repeating a point He made in chapter 5.
For there was no such thing as chapter breaks in the Bible. They were added later. Anyways, to understand chapter 7, you have to know what was going on in chapter 5.
In Romans chapter 5 we learn, "For by one man sin entered the world and by one man many shall be justified."
Now, under the Mosaic Law there was an accounting and those under that Law had to bring their sacrifices accordingly. Prior to the Mosaic law, the Patriarchs offered sacrifices to God, but not as a result of particular sins–not because God said to them if you do such and such sin then you have to offer such and such sacrifices. The sacrifices of the Patriarchs were offered based upon faith, not law. Which explains the context of Romans 5:13.
For sin was no doubt in the world prior to the law and so was transgression, hence there had to be some kind of law. For obviously Paul does not contradict himself here. He says that sin was not accounted until the law came. The point is that there was no law from God to this point that had been codified, that is, placed into written form. Before the Law of Moses, sin was not imputed because there was no written Law to transgress. Then how was sin imputed to those living before the written Law? Well, sin was imputed to those living before the Law because the "death of sin" was passed down to them thru Adam's disobedience (Romans 5:12, 14, 17, 18, 19). Those living before the Law, were exclusively justified by faith and those who did not live by faith were condemned. In other words, the Old Testament saint living before the Law was justified by following Romans 8:1. Yes, they did not know who Christ was yet or this passage, but the Spirit of Christ was in fact within the prophets, though (1 Peter 1:10, 11).
This point of the Law in Romans 5 is made in Romans chapter 7. Compare Romans 7:8-10 with Romans 5:12-14 and Romans 5:20.
#2. This passage is an answer to the question “Did that which was good [the Law], then, become death to me?” (Romans 7:13) Paul is not primarily interested here in discussing anyone's struggle with sin. He is explaining how the Old Testament Law – good in itself – was used by sin to bring death to pre-Christians.
#3. Paul knows that Christians struggle with sin; after all, many of his letters are written to help churches deal with sin. But he discusses the Christian struggle with sin in the next chapter (Romans 8:10-14). His conclusions about the struggle there do not seem to me to be consistent if chapter 7 is also about the Christian struggle with sin.
#4. Paul’s only positive description of the “me” in this passage is elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians. “I agree with the Law, that the Law is good” (Romans 7:16) and “I delight in the law of God in my inner man” (Romans 7:22). But this is more in line with Paul’s description of Jews: “If you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law” (Romans 2:17). In Romans, Christians have “died to the Law” (Romans 7:4) and thus “delight in the Law” is not most naturally applied to Christians.
#5. Paul’s negative descriptions of the “me” in the passage are elsewhere applied to Jews, not Christians.
“I am fleshly, sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14). Compare to “we were in the flesh” (Romans 7:5); “we were freed from sin” (Romans 6:18); “we were slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20); and “you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit” (Romans 8:9).
“But I see another law… making me a prisoner of the law of sin” (Romans 7:23). Compare to “but now, freed from sin and enslaved to God” (Romans 6:22); and “the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2).
If Paul says that Christian are no longer in the flesh and are no longer slaves or prisoners of sin, then it seems to make the most sense to say that he is talking about his pre-Christian experience when he was Jew here in Romans 7:14-25.
Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.
Sources Used:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Theology Online | Christian Forums & More - View Single Post - ECT Christians and the Old Testament
No, my friend. God did not create the soul of Jesus. Jesus Christ came into the flesh. It says so in 1 John 4:3. Re-read that passage and or quote it for me here. Jesus also said I came down from Heaven. Jesus did not say, God the Father created my soul and I also came from Heaven. Micah 5:2 says the Messiah is from everlasting. OT Scripture says there is no Savior beside Him. Meaning, the Savior can only be exclusively God and not God creating the soul of a human to be inhabited by the Son. The Son of God is uncreated and eternal. The Son of God merely inhabited an empty shell of a body. It was just a vessel. Jesus said his body was just a vessel when He referred to his body as a Temple. There is no Scripture verse that says God created the soul of Jesus. That would be wrong to say that. Christ is eternal and has always existed.
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