Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[Jillyanne]

Same exact conclusion that I came to on that other thread about those that were replying to my posts, Brother.

The OSAS people MUST HAVE known at least one human being that backslid to the point of no return.
Understandable that they and the Reformed theology folks would say that that person was never saved.
When that person becomes 7 times worse - even if they've taught and lead the church or pastored.

The only difference between those that believe in Freewill and Foreknowledge [as I do], is that we see Scripture pointing to "falling away from the faith" and what caused these people to "fall away or backslide"?

No one here can say they've never heard of or actually have seen someone backslide completely -- it's just that our view of why they did differs and I don't personally see that it's necessary to continue in these differences with such borderline hatred and hard-words -- as this debate has gone on for well over 500 yrs by the greatest scholars this earth has seen - other than our writers of the New Testament.

If I being a Foreknowledge, Freewill & Pentecostal taboot can be a member of a PCA for approx 6 yrs - I for one do not normally get into these debates online. I know my previous local Church of which I'm still a member are SAVED [even with their infant baptism] because I KNOW these people up-close & personal -- I wonder how some of you can say what you are saying to those that you don't agree with on here .... people that actually love God - believe "saved by Grace through Faith" but feel that obvious obedience is a genuine fruit of that active/ continuous faith.

If nothing else -- read ROMANS 14 and do good to all - especially the household of FAITH.

WE are being judged and will be judged by how we treat and judge others ... and That's a Fact!

I would differ with you on the falling away, the falling away is not backsliding Christians, the falling away is a falling away from the true source of life. The falling away will be manifested in works based religions in which their core SYSTEMS rely upon. The martyrs were killed for their proclamation of Grace and freedom....why? Because The good news of Christ would have put a serious hurt on the systems relying on people's works. It's very simple. The "church" depends on brainwashed individuals to support it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In part, I do understand the confusion on their behalf (those trapped in works salvation), because the "sinners prayer" has blinded many also to the seriousness of our sin. They rely on an empty prayer that has not acknowledged sin. I believe that the "once saved always saved" should be restated as "IF saved always saved".

I like that, Fits far better.

 

[newbirth]

what is contradicting?

Faith alone is what saved 9this is what scripture teaches.

But faith that saves is never alone (it will ALWAYS be followed by works.)

we are saved by grace through faith.........that is what scripture teaches........scripture does not say...

Faith alone is what saved

neither

But faith that saves is never alone (it will ALWAYS be followed by works.)

that is the gospel according to EG...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. This whole debate is based upon 'OBEDIENCE' as the person feels in their hearts of what God has commanded in His New Testament to us and once again - I appeal to the reading of Romans 14 so this 'holier than thou' [is what it's boiled down to by now] will stop and the judging of another man's conscience [and salvation] will stop -- lest we find ourselves fighting God and damning His Sheep.

I think people need to read paul, and see how he condemned the people going into his churches, and talking to his people trying to add works to the gospel of Christ. And he was not quiet, nor easy going about it, His words were harsh, direct and to the point.

You think God would have told him to stop judging people??

 

[ChristIsGod]

what is contradicting?

Faith alone is what saved 9this is what scripture teaches.

But faith that saves is never alone (it will ALWAYS be followed by works.)

Exactly And What I know that I have posted several times so far - yet you fought me every step of the way.

Sad stuff!

 

[newbirth]

I like that, Fits far better.

false doctrine in Bermuda shorts, suit or a tux is still false doctrine...

 

[ChristIsGod]

I think people need to read paul, and see how he condemned the people going into his churches, and talking to his people trying to add works to the gospel of Christ. And he was not quiet, nor easy going about it, His words were harsh, direct and to the point.

You think God would have told him to stop judging people??

More hogwash accusations. PAUL was combating the Jews --- those that wanted to bring in the 613 laws to the Gentiles.

Not the "works" that is from cover to cover in our New Testaments that we will be judged by - according to countless Verses.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Exactly And What I know that I have posted several times so far - yet you fought me every step of the way.

Sad stuff!

Guess it is time to get this out in the open. Again, maybe I have misunderstood you

Do you believe one is saved (FOREVER) the moment they place their faith in Christ?

I am not fighting you ever step of the way, I am just trying to discuss with you what your saying, because what I see you saying does not seem to be that you believe one is eternal saved based on their faith in Christ alone. Knowing that that faith is never alone (will always do work)

 

[Jillyanne]

false doctrine in Bermuda shorts, suit or a tux is still

the falling away is not backsliding Christians, the falling away is a falling away from the true source of life IN CHRIST ALONE. The falling away will be manifested in works based religions in which their core SYSTEMS rely upon. The martyrs were killed for their proclamation of Grace and freedom....why? Because The good news of Christ would have put a serious hurt on the systems relying on people's works. It's very simple. The "church" depends on brainwashed individuals to support its work based theology.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

More hogwash accusations. PAUL was combating the Jews --- those that wanted to bring in the 613 laws to the Gentiles.

Not the "works" that is from cover to cover in our New Testaments that we will be judged by - according to countless Verses.

Hogwash, Paul was speaking against adding work of any kind to the gospel of Christ. Not every time Paul says the word work means the law. That your misinterpretation.

Paul said works of ANY KIND added to grace nullifies grace, and makes it void (unable to save)

Now here we go again.

You yell at me and say you believe a true faith will never be alone, And here you go saying that works need to be done to be saved. Which is it?

 

[dcontroversal]

Same exact conclusion that I came to on that other thread about those that were replying to my posts, Brother.

The OSAS people MUST HAVE known at least one human being that backslid to the point of no return.
Understandable that they and the Reformed theology folks would say that that person was never saved.
When that person becomes 7 times worse - even if they've taught and lead the church or pastored.

The only difference between those that believe in Freewill and Foreknowledge [as I do], is that we see Scripture pointing to "falling away from the faith" and what caused these people to "fall away or backslide"?

No one here can say they've never heard of or actually have seen someone backslide completely -- it's just that our view of why they did differs and I don't personally see that it's necessary to continue in these differences with such borderline hatred and hard-words -- as this debate has gone on for well over 500 yrs by the greatest scholars this earth has seen - other than our writers of the New Testament.

If I being a Foreknowledge, Freewill & Pentecostal taboot can be a member of a PCA for approx 6 yrs - I for one do not normally get into these debates online. I know my previous local Church of which I'm still a member are SAVED [even with their infant baptism] because I KNOW these people up-close & personal -- I wonder how some of you can say what you are saying to those that you don't agree with on here .... people that actually love God - believe "saved by Grace through Faith" but feel that obvious obedience is a genuine fruit of that active/ continuous faith.

If nothing else -- read ROMANS 14 and do good to all - especially the household of FAITH.

WE are being judged and will be judged by how we treat and judge others ... and That's a Fact!

Well I do believe OSAS based upon a few things....
1. We are saved, justified, sanctified by the perfect faith OF Christ
2. In a house are many vessels...some of honor (faithful) some not so honorable (not so faithful)
3. The saved will be judged and rewarded accordingly 1st Corinthians 3
4. We can back slide to the point we have forgotten that we have been purged (Peter)
5. Those saved are SEALED by the Holy Spirit which is the prepayment of our inheritance
6. Those saved are in the hand of the Son, The Father and Sealed by the Spirit
7. All given unto Christ shall in no wise be lost

8. Paul said the following
a. Least of the apostles
b. Least of the saints
c. NUMBER ONE CHIEF SINNEAR AMONG MEN
d. Doesn't do the things he states he will do
e. Does the things he states he will not do
f. Finds a law that home he goes to do GOOD that SIN IS PRESENT with HIM

9. John teaches that it is the spirit that is born of God, does not sin, cannot sin and is eternally sealed and saved in Christ while the BODY is dead because of sin and cannot be subject unto the law of God
10. David, Peter, Paul and Daniel all sinned and or acknowledged sin in their lives yet were the saved children of God
11. Salvation is based upon the completed work of Christ and is not of human merit and or water
12. Jesus was the Son of God before his immersion and is our example
13. John did say that if they go out from us they were NEVER OF US
14. Some saved yet so as by fire as their works are of wood, hay and stubble...yet saved

Now concerning the Gospel
Galatians teaches the following

Gospel of the same kind<---begun in faith and made complete by faith
Gospel of a different kind<---saved by faith, but made complete by works

One saves and the other is double cursed Galatians 1, 3

One who believes saved by faith but kept by works or water which is a work of righteousness are not saved and will not be saved as long as they trust into a double cursed gospel of a different kind.

1. It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE
2. If you believe that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved
3. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)
4. In the grace you are having been saved by faith and that not of yourselves<---not of yourselves is directed at faith and goes to point 1 above..it is the GIFT of GOD, not of WORKS lest any man should boast.
5. For God so loved the Cosmos that HE GAVE.....that whosever believeth in him should not be perishing, but is having EVERLASTING life
6. Whatsoever GOD does it is ETERNAL...nothing added nor taken away and God does this so men may FEAR GOD...if men can add to or supplement salvation it makes it of human ability and alleviates the fear of God<--Ecclesiastes 3

Faith saves period and genuine faith will produce works, but the works have nothing at all to do with gaining and or keeping salvation as that is the work of God and not man....In John 3:16 we find a verb tense which states the following...

Present continuing results from a past completed action....

I was saved when I believed
I am saved right now
I will continue to be saved into the future......

Our faithfulness will determine our eternal inheritance....Those like the prodigal will be received as sons but not have much in God's kingdom...those who are faithful over a few things will be made ruler over many things!

 

[dcontroversal]

I think people need to read paul, and see how he condemned the people going into his churches, and talking to his people trying to add works to the gospel of Christ. And he was not quiet, nor easy going about it, His words were harsh, direct and to the point.

You think God would have told him to stop judging people??

Not to mention that we or they don't necessarily judge people, but rather what people teach....!

 

[ChristIsGod]

I would differ with you on the falling away, the falling away is not backsliding Christians, the falling away is a falling away from the true source of life. The falling away will be manifested in works based religions in which their core SYSTEMS rely upon. The martyrs were killed for their proclamation of Grace and freedom....why? Because The good news of Christ would have put a serious hurt on the systems relying on people's works. It's very simple. The "church" depends on brainwashed individuals to support it.

That's not all of what Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, etc warned us of.
They all warned that in the last days, many shall turn away from the faith and gave the reasons why --


Matt 24:12,13 And because iniquity 'shall' abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Rev 3:15,16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

[Jabberjaw]

I think people need to read paul, and see how he condemned the people going into his churches, and talking to his people trying to add works to the gospel of Christ. And he was not quiet, nor easy going about it, His words were harsh, direct and to the point.

You think God would have told him to stop judging people??

Not to mention that we or they don't necessarily judge people, but rather what people teach....!

Again, here you all go back to Paul telling the Jews not to follow the Mosaic Law, trying to use it to justify your set on the couch religion.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Again, here you all go back to Paul telling the Jews not to follow the Mosaic Law, trying to use it to justify your set on the couch religion.

Paul told gentiles and jews alike like to try to earn salvation by doing any work of righteousness.

He also told them they were DEAD, they could not save themselves. The GIFT of GOD must be given to them, to make them ALIVE

 

[Jillyanne]

That's not all of what Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jude, etc warned us of.
They all warned that in the last days, many shall turn away from the faith and gave the reasons why --


Matt 24:12,13 And because iniquity 'shall' abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Rev 3:15,16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. And I could go on and on with the list u provided.

 

[Jillyanne]

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. And I could go on and on with the list u provided.

please just consider it. The power that will be denied is the resurrecting power that raised Jesus Christ from the grave. The falling away will appear godly but it is cold, dark, empty and lifeless. It will be so puffed up with pride that anyone outside of its mindset will be labeled as the fallen ones....it's backwards...evil will appear good because it's an appearance of goodness.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Not to mention that we or they don't necessarily judge people, but rather what people teach....!

My only difference with you, Brother, is - that I - believing in Foreknowledge and gave just 3 of the verses that state this - such as in Peter "Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God" that these whom He "foreknew" are the only ones "sealed" and called "elect" because these verses that confirm foreknowledge of those that would be "faithful to the end" are osas - from His Omniscient perspective. They are sealed and all the eternal security verses pertain to those that "He Foreknew".
He foreknew that they would not fall-away, depart from the faith, be obedient onto death - so He has sealed them.

But NONE of us know 'who' they are or will be, at present.

The other difference in your larger post that I see between youse guys and myself - is that you are confusing the different ways in which that word "works" is used.

There's the "works of The Law" --- Moses 613 and then there's the "works" that the New Testament states are necessary for salvation AFTER one has been born-again. I gave tons of them but they're being ignored and I fear when ANY New Testament verses are totally ignored.

That's our two differences and Only Scripture in it's Entirety can settle this dispute.

 

[newbirth]

false doctrine in Bermuda shorts, suit or a tux is still

the falling away is not backsliding Christians, the falling away is a falling away from the true source of life IN CHRIST ALONE. The falling away will be manifested in works based religions in which their core SYSTEMS rely upon. The martyrs were killed for their proclamation of Grace and freedom....why? Because The good news of Christ would have put a serious hurt on the systems relying on people's works. It's very simple. The "church" depends on brainwashed individuals to support its work based theology.

even if you say Christ alone...you must obey Christ....how do you obey Christ's instructions....or do you not obey them as long as they are considered work? falling away is falling away from Christ and what he teaches....so while your eyes are on those who are going the wrong way you yourself are being led astray....keep your eyes on Christ and test the doctrine with the word of God....

A man teaches Faith alone saves...but the scripture says ...we are saved by grace ...through faith...those are not the same thing..who should I believe ...the scripture of course...the man is teaching false doctrine....and if this man build his doctrine on false premise why should I follow his teachings???

 

[dcontroversal]

My only difference with you, Brother, is - that I - believing in Foreknowledge and gave just 3 of the verses that state this - such as in Peter "Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God" that these whom He "foreknew" are the only ones "sealed" and called "elect" because these verses that confirm foreknowledge of those that would be "faithful to the end" are osas - from His Omniscient perspective. They are sealed and all the eternal security verses pertain to those that "He Foreknew".
He foreknew that they would not fall-away, depart from the faith, be obedient onto death - so He has sealed them.

But NONE of us know 'who' they are or will be, at present.

The other difference in your larger post that I see between youse guys and myself - is that you are confusing the different ways in which that word "works" is used.

There's the "works of The Law" --- Moses 613 and then there's the "works" that the New Testament states are necessary for salvation AFTER one has been born-again. I gave tons of them but they're being ignored and I fear when ANY New Testament verses are totally ignored.

That's our two differences and Only Scripture in it's Entirety can settle this dispute.

Really...OK....To him that WORKETH is the reward of DEBT and not of grace Romans 4:4-5<---in the N.T.