144,000

[eternally-gratefull]

The Roman empire did have control over all the known area, they had a mesh of all kinds of languages and tribes, nations, they conquer all of them (the world region that they knew). You want to interpret "oikoumenē" as something global, and I say it can also be the occupied areas of Rome. You also want to interpret "ge" as earth when it could also mean "land".

guess I'll have to find an example when forever doesn't mean forever.

as I said,

Some and every are not the same word. nor do they mean the same thing.

Rev 13: 7 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The New King James Version. (1982). (Re 13:7–8). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

59.23 πᾶςa, πᾶσα, πᾶν; ἅπας, ασα, αν (alternative form of πᾶς): the totality of any object, mass, collective, or extension—‘all, every, each, whole.

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 596). New York: United Bible Societies.

Please do not tell me the ceasar of rome in Christ's day had this power and authority over the whole of the earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then we both agree?

yes,

but should that not also account for future prophesies as spoken by the NT prophets?

Should we just assume they know exactly what is going to happen? That would be impossible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no Paul's words lol...Eph. 3 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it hasnow been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:

I am not speaking of prophesies which have already been fulfilled

I am speaking of future prophesies as spoken by Paul and John.

And yes the mystery is revealed.

Messiah and Gods servant are one and the same, even though the characteristics given for both of them do not match, thus no one could ever say they were the same.

 

[Flamingspirit]

Commercially, yes. Caesar was then the ruler of the earth. Doesn't matter who called himself a king of whatever nation, who's face was on the money?!?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What God gives me is on loan, I'm just a steward of it. What I have God entrusted me with. I own nothing.

yep. so if you disobay him, he may take it away from you for awhile, or may make it useless and not able to do what it was intended.

But if you repent, and return to him, should God not give you back what was yours to begin with (he gave it to you as a gift did he not? You did not earn anything, we can't

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Commercially, yes. Caesar was then the ruler of the earth. Doesn't matter who called himself a king of whatever nation, who's face was on the money?!?

so ceasar ruled China? and the america's? And russia? And antartica and artica? And japan? and australia??

Hm, where is this in scriptures? There is alot of nations, tribes and languages which are left out. (I have named but a few ceasar had no power over)

 

[Flamingspirit]

so ceasar ruled China? and the america's? And russia? And antartica and artica? And japan? and australia??

Hm, where is this in scriptures? There is alot of nations, tribes and languages which are left out. (I have named but a few ceasar had no power over)

Of course not. Please pay attention to what I said. It's the same today. We have a "president" and China and others have their leaders, but if they want oil or gas, they have to go through the dollar! Who's face is on the money?

 

[Bookends]

lol.. Well I think I have more biblical proof.

Bit then again, that kind of argument will prove niether of us right,

Rev states the future beast will have control of every nation, tribe and language, I do not know how much more proof one needs to see this is the whole earth, not just one section of the earth.

Like eternal means eternal. Every must mean every.

1 Samuel 1:22
22 But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, “Not until the child is weaned; then I will take him, that he may appear before the Lord and remain there forever.”

EG, did Samson live forever? Did he die? Did Samson remain with the priests forever?

 

[Bookends]

yep. so if you disobay him, he may take it away from you for awhile, or may make it useless and not able to do what it was intended.

But if you repent, and return to him, should God not give you back what was yours to begin with (he gave it to you as a gift did he not? You did not earn anything, we can't

Nothing was mine to begin with. God may bless me with things yes, but He doesn't promise me things. As for Salvation, I didn't earn it, it is a gift. But even a gift can be rejected.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Of course not. Please pay attention to what I said. It's the same today. We have a "president" and China and others have their leaders, but if they want oil or gas, they have to go through the dollar! Who's face is on the money?

what does this matter?

It does not say he will rule with money, it says he will rule with authority and power. and all will worship him.

Who worships the president of the untied states, the world hates him and us, If it were not for our money, they would not give us the time of day.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1 Samuel 1:22
22 But Hannah did not go up, for she said to her husband, “Not until the child is weaned; then I will take him, that he may appear before the Lord and remain there forever.”

EG, did Samson live forever? Did he die? Did Samson remain with the priests forever?

I samuel before the lord today? Yes

But I know. you will laugh at that (rolls eyes)

Was samual a priest as long as he lived. or did he ever stop being a priest?

Does the land of canaan still exist. or has it been destroyed completely so it is no longer there?

 

[Bookends]

I am not speaking of prophesies which have already been fulfilled

I am speaking of future prophesies as spoken by Paul and John.

And yes the mystery is revealed.

Messiah and Gods servant are one and the same, even though the characteristics given for both of them do not match, thus no one could ever say they were the same.

future for them, not necessarily future for us...That's what we most of us all assume is when we see a NT prophesy it's for us the 21 st century or beyond, I'm saying not necessarily so, and in most cases probably not.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nothing was mine to begin with. God may bless me with things yes, but He doesn't promise me things. As for Salvation, I didn't earn it, it is a gift. But even a gift can be rejected.

Yet he GAVE it to them (unconditional)

And he promised it to them. (unconditional.)

the only conditions he placed was wither they would live there in peace or not.

so did God lie or not?

Yes a gift can be rejected. But God did not give everyone salvation and promise they would have it.

A complete different topic. He only gave and promised salvation to those who trust him. THEY have eternal life.

is this life eternal. or is God a liar here too (see why this belief is dangerous)

 

[Bookends]

I samuel before the lord today? Yes

But I know. you will laugh at that (rolls eyes)

Was samual a priest as long as he lived. or did he ever stop being a priest?

Does the land of canaan still exist. or has it been destroyed completely so it is no longer there?

LOL, forever can mean a period of allotted time.. anyway, the land may exist, but its not called Canaan anymore. so in that since it doesn't exist.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

future for them, not necessarily future for us...That's what we most of us all assume is when we see a NT prophesy it's for us the 21 st century or beyond, I'm saying not necessarily so, and in most cases probably not.

Yet, if the prophesies are not fulfilled (literally) then they are not fulfilled.

There has not been a falling away of the church since it started. so this must be future.

In fact. we can see the signs of it happening today, deeper and deeper heresy by the year. Who knows when it will end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL, forever can mean a period of allotted time.. anyway, the land may exist, but its not called Canaan anymore. so in that since it doesn't exist.

lol.. So man changed the name of it, so God does not have to keep his promise because man changed the name?

ok. I get it

 

[Bookends]

Yet he GAVE it to them (unconditional)

And he promised it to them. (unconditional.)

the only conditions he placed was wither they would live there in peace or not.

so did God lie or not?

Yes a gift can be rejected. But God did not give everyone salvation and promise they would have it.

A complete different topic. He only gave and promised salvation to those who trust him. THEY have eternal life.

is this life eternal. or is God a liar here too (see why this belief is dangerous)

common sense must apply.

 

[Bookends]

Yet he GAVE it to them (unconditional)

And he promised it to them. (unconditional.)

the only conditions he placed was wither they would live there in peace or not.

so did God lie or not?

Yes a gift can be rejected. But God did not give everyone salvation and promise they would have it.

A complete different topic. He only gave and promised salvation to those who trust him. THEY have eternal life.

is this life eternal. or is God a liar here too (see why this belief is dangerous)

He gave them the land forever but only if they obeyed Him...but this could not be, for we both know the world will end some day, and the laws of entropy will not apply, but the world as we know it can't go on forever, the sun will eventually burn out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

common sense must apply.

Ok then.

When God says forever, he means it.

He gave me the gift of ETERNAL LIFE. which means I am secure forever in his gift.

He gave them a plot of land as an ETERNAL gift. which means that land is theirs forever.

You can;t have it both ways, if he can take one away, he can take the other.

 

[Bookends]

Yet, if the prophesies are not fulfilled (literally) then they are not fulfilled.

There has not been a falling away of the church since it started. so this must be future.

In fact. we can see the signs of it happening today, deeper and deeper heresy by the year. Who knows when it will end.

Paul does't say falling away of the Church...Don't add words...