Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[dcontroversal]

Legalistic justification by works totally dilutes the blood of Christ! Did Jesus not say "it is finished"? Or did Jesus mean it's finished but you gotta work your butt off to attain salvation?

No doubt and I will take the justification that is based upon the faith OFJesus as found in Galatians 2:16-21 the emphasis being on the word OF!

over legalistic justification any day of the week!

 

[kennethcadwell]

The problem with people who claim all people are there, is they do not read.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[SUP][c][/SUP] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. [SUP]13 [/SUP]The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them.

People who have been born of God are not dead. they are ALIVE.

then look at what it says to complete the passage.

Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire.

Funny, It says the dead were delivered to him (not raised by him by the way, the child of God will be raised on the last day as Jesus promised in John 6, not delivered to him.) and then the same dead were cast into the lake of fire.

it can be quite an amazing eye opener when we actually read the passage, and see EVERYTHING it says, and not just pick out a few words, like the book of life..

More misunderstanding as the as DEATH AND HELL deliver up the DEAD in them...Kenneth do you even read and understand CONTEXT.....serious! Read verse 5-6 and then 14-15 and wake up to the reality that it is the LOST that are being judged and that their names are NOT RECORDED in the BOOK OF LIFE....do you people even read and or understand context?????? And the fact that it is CALLED the SECOND death!

First of all it is not a misunderstanding.
You have to know how the word dead is used, and it does not say just death and Hades gave up there dead. It first says that there was the dead small and great walking before the throne, and they were judged by works. These are all those that died after the first resurrection, and the millennial reign of Christ. During the battle of Armageddon. Then after it says about the dead small and great walking before the throne and the books being opened, then it says the sea gave up its dead, then death and Hades gave up their dead and they were judged by their works.

If you say there is no believers at the time of this judgment, then you are saying that nobody comes to believe in Christ during His millennial reign on earth. That is not the case, as the bible clearly says that there will be believers here at this time. The thing is it will not be us that is being mentioned here, because we who believe right now will have already be caught up by the first resurrection. This has to be referring to those who came to believe in Him after the first resurrection and during His millennial reign.

Plus, to further go back to what I was saying about understanding how dead is used. Look at this scripture;


[h=1]1 Thessalonians 4:14-17[/h]14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

 

[elf3]

Acts 4:12 who's name is he talking about? Is it your name? Um...nope! Not even my name can save me. Only the name of Jesus can save.

"Oh dear Lord help me save myself. Please let me do enough good works to enter heavens rest." Hahaha! I think even God would laugh at that prayer.

So I I guess every person who was "a good person and did good works" enters heaven? Um ...where is the blood of Christ in that?

 

[kennethcadwell]

No.. I am saying ANYONE WHO DOES NOT FORGIVE ANOTHER PERSON is a self centered person.

You claimed God would not forgive them, did you forget that??



Thanks, you just said it again, You claim Jesus did not die for one who does not forgive others.

New flash.. When I was in sin, I did not forgive others, If jesus will not allow us into heaven because I did not forgive others. I am doomed to hell.

Now that I am alive in Christ, I do forgive others (because God forgave me, Not out of my power but Gods power)

But if I a aready doomed to hell because I did not forgive others, I guess I have no hope, I am dead iin my sin, no matter how many times I forgive others.

Sorry, but this is not a claim this is fact.
You have to be forgiven of your sins to inherit the kingdom of heaven, else wise you are still in slavery to those sins.
This is one of the main points of the gospel, love and a true way to be forgiven of our sins so that we can be reconciled to God. Until one is forgiven of sins, they can not be reconciled to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, but this is not a claim this is fact.
You have to be forgiven of your sins to inherit the kingdom of heaven, else wise you are still in slavery to those sins.

You must be forgiven of your sins, or you are still dead in sin. But yes, you are also still a slave.

This is one of the main points of the gospel, love and a true way to be forgiven of our sins so that we can be reconciled to God. Until one is forgiven of sins, they can not be reconciled to God.

again true. But we are reconciled by God through forgiveness.

Not through obedience, we can never be obedient enough to reconcile ourselves. the only way we could is to fulfill the law. and we have failed to do this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First of all it is not a misunderstanding.
You have to know how the word dead is used, and it does not say just death and Hades gave up there dead. It first says that there was the dead small and great walking before the throne, and they were judged by works. These are all those that died after the first resurrection, and the millennial reign of Christ. During the battle of Armageddon. Then after it says about the dead small and great walking before the throne and the books being opened, then it says the sea gave up its dead, then death and Hades gave up their dead and they were judged by their works.

If you say there is no believers at the time of this judgment, then you are saying that nobody comes to believe in Christ during His millennial reign on earth. That is not the case, as the bible clearly says that there will be believers here at this time. The thing is it will not be us that is being mentioned here, because we who believe right now will have already be caught up by the first resurrection. This has to be referring to those who came to believe in Him after the first resurrection and during His millennial reign.

Plus, to further go back to what I was saying about understanding how dead is used. Look at this scripture;


1 Thessalonians 4:14-17

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.[a]
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive andremain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

A believer will only go to the bema seat judgment, not the great white throne judgment, They will recieve reward, or have their reward burnt up. They will be resurrected BY GOD, Not DELIVERED TO GOD. and at the resurrection, they will HAVE THEIR GLORIFIED BODY, not have to wait till they are judged.

if you want to be at the great white throne, by all means go there. But you will not make it out alive.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

All you are doing is just reposting what is already been said by you, and not answering the question. But if you want to go by the scripture you gave lets look at that first part of 2 Corinthians;

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation ( see here how it says to salvation, not that it gives salvation )


It is part of your walk as a believer after you have heard the word and believed in it, for if you believe in what you heard in the word you would obey it. Turning from your sins is part of repentance, it is not an act of its own.

Now back to my question again, when is a person truly saved ? I will post a few here that show not tell the end.
<snip>

But God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (for by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph. 2:4-6

Are we seated in heavenly places RIGHT now? Nope - that verse is stated in the past tense as already occurred to emphasize the CERTAINTY that it will happen in the future.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:4,5

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself [the Spirit dwelling in us]: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13 [sort of reiterates John 3:16,18]

If I can loose my salvation - AT ANY TIME - How can I KNOW with confidence that I have eternal life? And let me ask you - if someone should return and wallow in the mire for a time and suffer the consequences of that action - When they return do they have to be born again - AGAIN?

Why is it that because I do not believe I can do anything to "guarantee" my salvation that it rests in my faith in Christ - it is automatically assumed that I live as I please and do not endeavor to "walk" in a way that is pleasing to God?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Legalistic justification by works totally dilutes the blood of Christ! Did Jesus not say "it is finished"? Or did Jesus mean it's finished but you gotta work your butt off to attain salvation?

1. Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it isfinished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.
   
   
   What Jesus was saying by it is finished here is that the debt for our sins was paid in full, by the shedding of His blood on the cross. Now in order to receive that gift of salvation through our Lord, one has to have faith in Him and believe in what He said and follow His teachings. The first would be the command to repent of your sins, without that repentance; which is a recognition of your sins and how it separated you from God and to feel the godly sorrow for this and turn away from them and not walk in them any more.
   

He is not saying that there is nothing we have to do in order to receive that salvation. If this was the case then you would not even have to obey His commands to be saved. For those who say we don't have to follow any set of laws, forgets that it is the mosaic laws we are not under or have to obey. It is the Lord our God moral laws we do have to obey. For even He says if you love me, which you have to do to have faith in Him, you will keep My commandments.

There are a set of laws that still apply to a believer, God's moral laws.
If not then you would be classified as lawlessness, the only ones that I know that are classified as lawlessness is Satan and those who follow Him. I am sorry but I do not want to be in that class.

 

[SoulWeaver]

The Gospel is "Fear based", our God is "fear based" :

1Pet 2:17 (KJV)
Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Acts 13:16 (KJV)
Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with [his] hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Rev 14:7 (KJV)
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

You preach another gospel, you should fear God and the pits of hell.

There is godly and ungodly fear of God.
The godly one draws you closer to God, the ungodly pushes you away from Him.
Does that make sense so far?
I was not saved by hell preaching nor works salvation religion.
Love of God and His shed blood was what saved me, and it was only then when I was born again that I started obeying and having godly fear of God. We love Him because He first loved us. Love is what makes that change of heart.

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment*. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

*torment belongs with hell
​

So even after how many pages the thread starter and others are being accused that they reject obedience to God?
That is ridiculous. All they say is that obedience is a work of Holy Spirit, not our work, and that good works are fruit and witness of true FAITH. The more faith we have, the better we obey, so all we really need to do is believe.
Why dont you guys read what is actually being said?

 

[kennethcadwell]

A believer will only go to the bema seat judgment, not the great white throne judgment, They will recieve reward, or have their reward burnt up. They will be resurrected BY GOD, Not DELIVERED TO GOD. and at the resurrection, they will HAVE THEIR GLORIFIED BODY, not have to wait till they are judged.

if you want to be at the great white throne, by all means go there. But you will not make it out alive.

Once again no that is not true, the bema seat is for the believers in Him before tribulation, first resurrection, and millennial reign take place. Then after that while the Lord has His millennial reign here on earth, which is after the first resurrection ( rapture ), there will be those who are still alive on the earth at this time that will come to accept Him as their Lord.
As the scriptures make it clear by when satan is released after those 1,000 years will try to deceive those who are on earth. Which leads to the battle of Armageddon.

 

[elf3]

1. Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it isfinished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever.
   
   
   What Jesus was saying by it is finished here is that the debt for our sins was paid in full, by the shedding of His blood on the cross. Now in order to receive that gift of salvation through our Lord, one has to have faith in Him and believe in what He said and follow His teachings. The first would be the command to repent of your sins, without that repentance; which is a recognition of your sins and how it separated you from God and to feel the godly sorrow for this and turn away from them and not walk in them any more.
   

He is not saying that there is nothing we have to do in order to receive that salvation. If this was the case then you would not even have to obey His commands to be saved. For those who say we don't have to follow any set of laws, forgets that it is the mosaic laws we are not under or have to obey. It is the Lord our God moral laws we do have to obey. For even He says if you love me, which you have to do to have faith in Him, you will keep My commandments.

There are a set of laws that still apply to a believer, God's moral laws.
If not then you would be classified as lawlessness, the only ones that I know that are classified as lawlessness is Satan and those who follow Him. I am sorry but I do not want to be in that class.

But you are failing to realize that "paid in full" means that there is nothing else owed. You are still saying we must "work" to be saved. If we have to work to be saved then we are "owed" something. As in since I worked God owes me salvation.

Christ did away with all of the ritualistic laws of the OT. Sure the moral laws still exist but if we are "working" for salvation are we not still trying to uphold the old laws?

 

[dcontroversal]

A believer will only go to the bema seat judgment, not the great white throne judgment, They will recieve reward, or have their reward burnt up. They will be resurrected BY GOD, Not DELIVERED TO GOD. and at the resurrection, they will HAVE THEIR GLORIFIED BODY, not have to wait till they are judged.

if you want to be at the great white throne, by all means go there. But you will not make it out alive.

They are blind to this as they have to dig up scripture and hang their works for salvation on them to try and argue their points just like (perch)....All I can say is if they stand in the Revelation 20 judgment it will be hell to pay...or more precisely an eternal swim in the LAKE of fire!

 

[dcontroversal]

But you are failing to realize that "paid in full" means that there is nothing else owed. You are still saying we must "work" to be saved. If we have to work to be saved then we are "owed" something. As in since I worked God owes me salvation.

Christ did away with all of the ritualistic laws of the OT. Sure the moral laws still exist but if we are "working" for salvation are we not still trying to uphold the old laws?

If of works..no longer GRACE for sure....!

 

[kennethcadwell]

But God who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (for by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus Eph. 2:4-6

Are we seated in heavenly places RIGHT now? Nope - that verse is stated in the past tense as already occurred to emphasize the CERTAINTY that it will happen in the future.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:4,5

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself [the Spirit dwelling in us]: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:10-13 [sort of reiterates John 3:16,18]

If I can loose my salvation - AT ANY TIME - How can I KNOW with confidence that I have eternal life? And let me ask you - if someone should return and wallow in the mire for a time and suffer the consequences of that action - When they return do they have to be born again - AGAIN?

Why is it that because I do not believe I can do anything to "guarantee" my salvation that it rests in my faith in Christ - it is automatically assumed that I live as I please and do not endeavor to "walk" in a way that is pleasing to God?

I see where you keep going with this, and has for the raising us up. If you take other scriptures it says that happens on the last day. We are not raised up yet, so we are not brought into salvation yet.

Then you bring in a couple of scriptures that speak again about believing in Him. I already addressed this by showing you scriptural passage from our Lord where He says what it means to believe in Him. He says one who believes in Him is one who hears and does His sayings, not just hears.

Then you ask how can you know with confidence that you have eternal life. That is easily answered, by standing firm, enduring trials in your life, and keep obedient to the Lord and you would know you have it by your willingness to not waver.

The problem is with this is even though you, me, E.G, Dconn, and some others know we have that salvation by the Lord our God. The scriptures make it clear that those who are still weak in the faith, can be wavered, fooled, deceived, and fall away do this and trials in their life.
Which is why we are called to minister to them, so that we can help them through the Holy Spirit's guidance make them stronger.

The scriptures make it clear that we are each measured out a different measure of faith, those who are weak still have faith but need to be guided still so that they do not fall away.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again no that is not true, the bema seat is for the believers in Him before tribulation, first resurrection, and millennial reign take place. Then after that while the Lord has His millennial reign here on earth, which is after the first resurrection ( rapture ), there will be those who are still alive on the earth at this time that will come to accept Him as their Lord. As the scriptures make it clear by when satan is released after those 1,000 years will try to deceive those who are on earth. Which leads to the battle of Armageddon.

so what your saying is, those who are saved during the millenial reign will not go through a bema seat like we did? Sorry I can not buy that.

not to mentioned, you just admitted that we will go through the bema seat long BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE, IS God going to judge us twice?

 

[kennethcadwell]

But you are failing to realize that "paid in full" means that there is nothing else owed. You are still saying we must "work" to be saved. If we have to work to be saved then we are "owed" something. As in since I worked God owes me salvation.

Christ did away with all of the ritualistic laws of the OT. Sure the moral laws still exist but if we are "working" for salvation are we not still trying to uphold the old laws?

There is nothing else owed for sin, but our faith and obedience is still required.

If faith and obedience is not required, then one would not know they need to repent of sins and then even after knowing this would refuse to do it saying repentance of sins in not necessary/needed.

Then if obedience is not necessary then one can go and sin willfully after having faith in Jesus, and still stay saved. This is not true, and I know people will pull that old debate that we can no longer go against God now, as if we are puppets on a string. The thing is the Lord says I will send you My Helper, the Holy Spirit. Why would a believer still need help if there is no longer a threat to fall away once one is in Christ ? It is because we can fall back and give into willful sin again, and obey it in our lust instead of obeying the Lord making us enmity to Him again. The Holy Spirit is sent to help and guide us to not give back into sins. Those who are still weak in the faith though will not always listen to that guidance, and if not careful the sin will take them back over.

 

[dcontroversal]

so what your saying is, those who are saved during the millenial reign will not go through a bema seat like we did? Sorry I can not buy that.

not to mentioned, you just admitted that we will go through the bema seat long BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE, IS God going to judge us twice?

This is a prime example of the confusion that works for salvation breeds.......!

 

[elf3]

There is nothing else owed for sin, but our faith and obedience is still required.

If faith and obedience is not required, then one would not know they need to repent of sins and then even after knowing this would refuse to do it saying repentance of sins in not necessary/needed.

Then if obedience is not necessary then one can go and sin willfully after having faith in Jesus, and still stay saved. This is not true, and I know people will pull that old debate that we can no longer go against God now, as if we are puppets on a string. The thing is the Lord says I will send you My Helper, the Holy Spirit. Why would a believer still need help if there is no longer a threat to fall away once one is in Christ ? It is because we can fall back and give into willful sin again, and obey it in our lust instead of obeying the Lord making us enmity to Him again. The Holy Spirit is sent to help and guide us to not give back into sins. Those who are still weak in the faith though will not always listen to that guidance, and if not careful the sin will take them back over.

Ok I guess the main question would be this.."how are we justified before God?" Not judged but justified.

 

[kennethcadwell]

so what your saying is, those who are saved during the millenial reign will not go through a bema seat like we did? Sorry I can not buy that.

not to mentioned, you just admitted that we will go through the bema seat long BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE, IS God going to judge us twice?

What does Jesus say ?

More blessed are those who have not seen, yet believed.
These people during the millennial reign of Christ had to see before they believed.

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection, for the second resurrection has no power over them.
This does not say all who take part in the second resurrection will be cast to the lake of fire, it is saying that depending on what they did after the first resurrection will determine if they are cast there.

If they come to Christ during the millennium and are not deceived by satan when he is released, then they will be the ones that is mentioned in first part of chapter 20 the small and great standing before God, that the Book of Life is opened for and then they are judged by their works. Then the sea, death, and Hades give up their dead and they are judged and cast into the lake of fire.
Notice the first group it does not say were cast into the lake of fire, it does not say that tell death and Hades gave up their dead and they were all cast into the lake of fire, then if anybody else from the first group or the group from the sea if their names were not written in the Book then they were cast into the lake. This shows not all from the first group in chapter 20 get cast to the lake of fire.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Ok I guess the main question would be this.."how are we justified before God?" Not judged but justified.

By faith we are justified, and by obedience we are saved.

Now before anybody goes into a rampage about me saying this, let me explain why I said that by first showing what Paul said.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Notice he says by believing ( faith ) one is justified, and with confession one is saved. This is because he is making a point that ones obedience plays a role in being saved.
Confession was a command by our Lord, as well as repentance, baptism, forgiveness, and doing good deeds for others.
By stating it this way Paul is showing that obeying the Lords commands are needed for salvation.

Can you be saved if you don't obey this command ?

Matthew 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.


If you say no, then this would apply to the rest of His commands because He said this;


John 14:15
“If you love me, you will keep my commandments"