Sin & Evil are NOT the same

[Jason0047]

I am not saying that.
God says this in the Bible and if God Himself uses a term in a certain way I believe it is safe to use it. I think it's common sense that God is not evil. He reproves the sinner by letting people get some taste of their own medicine. He has even designed tastes to testify about Him.

Jeremiah 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee (...) know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God [sin]...
Jeremiah 4:18 Thy way and thy doings [sin] have procured these things [visitation or reaping of sins] unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter

Lamentations 3:15 He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.
Because they would not drink the living waters...

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
Because he would not believe the truth... etc.

Not all of God's punishments are like that, though. For obviously natural tornadoes are not a result of evil mutants who can create tornadoes with their fists. Tornadoes are not inheritantly evil in and of themselves. However, in the form of punishment from God that you mentioned, He would be merely taking an act of evil or sin that already exists and merely redirecting the flow of that evil back upon that person. Sort of like holding up a mirror to a laser beam. A person reaps what they sow. God redirectinng flow of traffic of how evil is directed does not mean God's Judgment on this point would be wrong or sinful. God is not wrong nor is He approving of evil when He redirects evil acts or sin back upon someone who is being sinful. The act of evil or sin would already exist by man regardless. God is not creating new acts of evil or sin as a form of punishment. All acts of evil or sin come from man and not God. God using the acts of evil or sin of man back upon himself does not equate with God creating that evil himself. So again. God's Judgments are not evil. They might appear evil or sinful to us and in some cases it might be sin from another correcting us, but it is not a direct form of punishment from God like say a tornado or an Earthquake or a pack of hungry wolves looking for a midnight meal (and not caring what that meal is).

 

[dcontroversal]

Solomon said time and chance happens unto all!

The bible also states that God has his way in the whirlwind!

 

[SoulWeaver]

@Jason0047:
I disagree with your ideas about tornadoes, that they can also exist and not be a punishment... These things would not exist if people lived righteously.
The Bible itself defines them as visitations for sins:

Isaiah 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Jeremiah 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

He does not create evil but yes He does bring evil upon, as the Bible says.

 

[BradC]

To put away sin as Christ did on the cross takes a judicial act on God's part. The removal of sin that Christ accomplished is a once and for all act that does not have to be repeated, but rather needs to be reckoned upon individually by faith. To remove sin and put it away through the blood of Christ allows sinful man to be reconciled to God and have all sin remitted (released, forgiven and pardoned). In the NT there is two primary principles of evil. One is (kakos) which is intrinsic and abides in the heart of man. The other is (poneros) which is instituted by the wicked one (Satan). This (poneros) evil is full of labours designed in a strategic manner to effect the mind, hearts and eventually the tongue of individuals to be a mouthpiece for the kingdom of darkness. This (poneros) tongue is a deadly evil, set on fire of hell, designed to destroy the work of God including the finished work of the cross. This work of evil can be seen in (3 John 1:9-11)...

9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil (kakos), but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil (kakos) hath not seen God.

In this case Diotrephes made empty charges against John and the teachers John sent to the local church, prating (empty and idle accusations) against them with malicious (poneros evil) words. He allowed (kakos evil) to take over his capacity and dominate his assessment of the doctrine that was being taught by John and representatives in that local church and it became malicious words set on fire to destroy the whole church within that local assembly, even to the point of rejecting and forbidding the brethren. Is was not sin that overtook Diotrephes, but (kakos evil) that turned (poneros evil) through words and actions of rejection. Evil motivated him and not sin and for that the brethren were warned against following him and his evil deeds that were not good (agathos).

 

[SoulWeaver]

In the NT there is two primary principles of evil. One is (kakos) which is intrinsic and abides in the heart of man. The other is (poneros) which is instituted by the wicked one (Satan). This (poneros) evil is full of labours designed in a strategic manner to effect the mind, hearts and eventually the tongue of individuals to be a mouthpiece for the kingdom of darkness. This (poneros) tongue is a deadly evil, set on fire of hell, designed to destroy the work of God including the finished work of the cross. This work of evil can be seen in (3 John 1:9-11).
In this case Diotrephes made empty charges against John and the teachers John sent to the local church, prating (empty and idle accusations) against them with malicious (poneros evil) words. He allowed (kakos evil) to take over his capacity and dominate his assessment of the doctrine that was being taught by John and representatives in that local church and it became malicious words set on fire to destroy the whole church within that local assembly, even to the point of rejecting and forbidding the brethren. Is was not sin that overtook Diotrephes, but (kakos evil) that turned (poneros evil) through words and actions of rejection. Evil motivated him and not sin and for that the brethren were warned against following him and his evil deeds that were not good (agathos).

Oh maybe I see now where are you going with this.
So two different terms for evil in Greek are used for what man is doing and what demons are doing?
So you are saying not every evil is sin because demons are spirits, they dont have souls so they do evil but cannot sin because sin requires having a soul? I was looking and most verses say that soul is the one doing the sinning.
However, this one verse seems to disagree so even a spirit can sin. Maybe I'm missing something though because idk Greek:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Might be two terms are used because one is forgivable and the other isnt?

 

[AbbeyJoy]

Is it possible that a person might do a sin like murdering someone and went court and judge ask if he is guilty and he said no and denys it is he considered an evil person?

 

[Jason0047]

@Jason0047:
I disagree with your ideas about tornadoes, that they can also exist and not be a punishment... These things would not exist if people lived righteously.

Not sure where you are coming from here but God talked to Job out of a whirlwind. Doesn't mean God was setting out to destroy anyone with that whirlwind.

The Bible itself defines them as visitations for sins:

Isaiah 29:6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.
Jeremiah 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

He does not create evil but yes He does bring evil upon, as the Bible says.

First, the word "evil" in the Bible is sometimes rendered as "calamity."

Second, I think we can agree that God is love and that God is good. Yes?

In other words, if you told an atheist that God brings evil upon people, they would completely agree with you and then list a bunch of reasons why they believe the Bible says God is set out to bring evil upon them and or mankind. But this would not be an entirely accurate or true statement, though. God is not some bringer of darkness. There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is love and God is good. Any evil that comes upon someone is the result of the Fall and or man's sin. God's Judgments are always brought forth for the greater good. God is long suffering towards us and not willing any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Sin is God's enemy. It is a part of the devil's kingdom; And Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. God's Judgments and actions are always geared towards the best possible good of man so as to bring him to the Lord and or for the good of His Kingdom and or His people. God's Judgments never bring about evil so as to hurt man ultimately. The evil is man's evil and not God's evil. Nor does God bring evil upon man. More accurately, man brings evil upon Himself. God is merely redirecting what evil man does back upon himself at times so as to get them to repent and or to destroy the devil's plans and or stop wicked people who do not want God in their lives.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Not sure where you are coming from here but God talked to Job out of a whirlwind. Doesn't mean God was setting out to destroy anyone with that whirlwind.

I see where you're coming from, but you forget that whirlwind is how God chooses to appear because it is a sign that He is the punisher of the wicked. It depicts His indignation and fury. So He chooses to appear in this manner as a sign.
Jeremiah 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

First, the word "evil" in the Bible is sometimes rendered as "calamity."

Okay, that would make calamity synonymous with "evil" used to mean "punishment"... you brought in some clarity.

Second, I think we can agree that God is love and that God is good. Yes?

Sure.

In other words, if you told an atheist that God brings evil upon people, they would completely agree with you and then list a bunch of reasons why they believe the Bible says God is set out to bring evil upon them and or mankind. But this would not be an entirely accurate or true statement, though. God is not some bringer of darkness. There is no darkness in God (1 John 1:5). God is love and God is good. Any evil that comes upon someone is the result of the Fall and or man's sin. God's Judgments are always brought forth for the greater good. God is long suffering towards us and not willing any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. Sin is God's enemy. It is a part of the devil's kingdom; And Jesus Christ was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. God's Judgments and actions are always geared towards the best possible good of man so as to bring him to the Lord and or for the good of His Kingdom and or His people. God's Judgments never bring about evil so as to hurt man ultimately. The evil is man's evil and not God's evil. Nor does God bring evil upon man. More accurately, man brings evil upon Himself. God is merely redirecting what evil man does back upon himself at times so as to get them to repent and or to destroy the devil's plans and or stop wicked people who do not want God in their lives.

I do not think any differently than that.
However, as God words it like that in the Bible, I have no problem with it. The reason why He words things like that is exactly to separate people who know Him from those who dont.
Psalms 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.

We know God so the Bible reads to us correctly. There's no reason to make God politically correct or take away from His Word. He put that there on purpose to be a block of offense to those who hate Him.

 

[Jason0047]

Lop

To put away sin as Christ did on the cross takes a judicial act on God's part. The removal of sin that Christ accomplished is a once and for all act that does not have to be repeated, but rather needs to be reckoned upon individually by faith. To remove sin and put it away through the blood of Christ allows sinful man to be reconciled to God and have all sin remitted (released, forgiven and pardoned). In the NT there is two primary principles of evil. One is (kakos) which is intrinsic and abides in the heart of man. The other is (poneros) which is instituted by the wicked one (Satan). This (poneros) evil is full of labours designed in a strategic manner to effect the mind, hearts and eventually the tongue of individuals to be a mouthpiece for the kingdom of darkness. This (poneros) tongue is a deadly evil, set on fire of hell, designed to destroy the work of God including the finished work of the cross. This work of evil can be seen in (3 John 1:9-11)...

9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil (kakos), but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil (kakos) hath not seen God.

In this case Diotrephes made empty charges against John and the teachers John sent to the local church, prating (empty and idle accusations) against them with malicious (poneros evil) words. He allowed (kakos evil) to take over his capacity and dominate his assessment of the doctrine that was being taught by John and representatives in that local church and it became malicious words set on fire to destroy the whole church within that local assembly, even to the point of rejecting and forbidding the brethren. Is was not sin that overtook Diotrephes, but (kakos evil) that turned (poneros evil) through words and actions of rejection. Evil motivated him and not sin and for that the brethren were warned against following him and his evil deeds that were not good (agathos).

All sin and or evil has it's origin in Adam and Satan's falls into sin or rebellion against God. So anything you think is evil that is different than sin can be traced back to an act of evil and or sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would say this,

As far as tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis etc etc as natural disasters.

I think today God is having a hands off aproach and just letting nature do its thing, I can stop them from happening (and I wonder if we really knew how many of them he has stopped) but I do not think for the most part God is using them to punish any individuals specifically (or people. )

However, he has in the OT. and most likely will in the future.

 

[SoulWeaver]

@ eternally-gratefull:
It seems to me because the land has been defiled... "the land itself vomiteth the inhabitants thereof"

Anyways, I'm willing to drop that point, it does not matter that much.
I am rather wondering why are two different words used in Greek for evil?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

@ eternally-gratefull:
It seems to me because the land has been defiled... "the land itself vomiteth the inhabitants thereof"

Anyways, I'm willing to drop that point, it does not matter that much.
I am rather wondering why are two different words used in Greek for evil?

good question, I will have to study that when I get home, or sometime this weekend (Hope I can remember)

 

[Jason0047]

@ eternally-gratefull:
It seems to me because the land has been defiled... "the land itself vomiteth the inhabitants thereof"

Anyways, I'm willing to drop that point, it does not matter that much.
I am rather wondering why are two different words used in Greek for evil?

Not to throw my weight around or be bossy or anything,

But to be on the cautious side, context always determines the meaning of a word. Try reading the passage with a blank space of where the word should be. Let the surrounding text help and look at cross references. We have to be careful in ascribing a meaning just based on that word alone. Words in our language can be spelled differently.

Side Note:

Best cross reference search site is Open Bible - IMO.


Bible Cross References

 

[SoulWeaver]

Context always determines the meaning of a word. Try reading the passage with a blank space of where the word should be. Let the surrounding text help and look at cross references. We have to be careful in ascribing a meaning just based on that word alone. Words in our language can be spelled differently.

Side Note:

Best cross reference search site is Open Bible - IMO.


Bible Cross References

Thanks for the link, I'll be looking these two words up and where they appear.
God Bless

 

[Jason0047]

Thanks for the link, I'll be looking these two words up and where they appear.
God Bless

You are most welcome.

And may the Lord bless you and your family greatly.

 

[sveinen]

Something just occurred to me that I had not thought of yesterday regarding the connection between sin and evil. Whether or not these two are always the same would have to depend upon how one defines what evil is, for example, We see a number of times is the OT where God had brought evil upon one nation or another or even upon certain individuals. This evil took different forms such as plagues and natural disasters. While there things are defined a evil brought upon them by the Lord they are not in and of themselves sin. On the other hand, sin and evil as a behavior can not be seen as separate.

me thinks we shall not define evil?
i seem to be His Majestys sore, bdw... evil and gruesome now we thinks. possibly past that, but i think i was kept free from sin.. i read that part of "he who says he does not have sin..."
i seem to be an outbreak outcome. "quite rough it was" -i had trouble with the unnice of extra salted peanuts, ok.
and i resurrect, whether they burn me, blow me up or grind me. so Truth must Be In me?

 

[oldhermit]

me thinks we shall not define evil?
i seem to be His Majestys sore, bdw... evil and gruesome now we thinks. possibly past that, but i think i was kept free from sin.. i read that part of "he who says he does not have sin..."
i seem to be an outbreak outcome. "quite rough it was" -i had trouble with the unnice of extra salted peanuts, ok.
and i resurrect, whether they burn me, blow me up or grind me. so Truth must Be In me?

I am sorry sveinen but I cannot make heads or tails of what you are trying to say.

 

[sveinen]

I am sorry sveinen but I cannot make heads or tails of what you are trying to say.

i think i come by saying it's quite late. time to repent. not a second waiting.
"who knows."

 

[mpaper345]

Jesus took away the sins of the world which means an individual can escape this evil world and have their sins forgiven,but evil will be on earth until God puts them down at the battle of Armageddon.

 

[resurrection33]

The cross of Christ did not put away evil, it dealt with the sin of man that separated him from God. All sin was crucified and buried through the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. That was a judicial act motivated by the love of God when the Father sent his Son to be crucified. This present evil world under the control of the evil one (the prince and power of the air & the god of this world system) is motivated by evil (poneros) through magnifying sin and iniquity within the heart and practices of those who are of this world of which we were called out from. Evil has a doctrine and unfruitful work that does not recognize the sacrifice and blood of Christ that has crucified and put away sin.

Love covers a multitude of sin, but evil is motivated to expose sin (not convict) to discredit the blood of Christ, the work of the cross and slander the people who commit such sin. This is how the mystery of iniquity operates in this present evil world system in which we live. The gospel is motivated by the love of God with the message that Christ was crucified for our sin and suffered the wages of our sin through death and the shedding of his own blood. Evil does not recognize this act of God's mercy upon the human race and does everything in its evil power structure to take away from this and substitute the pleasures in this life and all kinds if diverse lusts to involve people through the flesh.

Today we face a network of indulgences of the flesh motivated by evil all over the world. Our refuge is that Christ has overcome the world and through Him we overcome the wicked one, but for those who are in unbelief, they need to light of the gospel to shine unto them that Christ has put away sin and has made a way to overcome evil.

To sin means to disobey the Lord - to act selfishly. Evil means "pain":


And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do to his people. Exodus 32:14 RSV