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I'm not questioning whether your brain can make a 'decision'... or that the brain makes the decision a hair before we become aware of it... I'm saying that the 'decision' is no different than a coin toss... the coin doesn't 'decide' to be heads or tails... the outcome is determined by the thrust of the thumb, etc... so, does your brain decide things, choose things, differently than a coin toss? If so, what evidence to you present?
"Let me ask you. If you think the decision was not made by my brain, and so by me, then were did the decision come from?"
well, let's take a scientific approach to this, only admitting evidence from observation or experimentation... I do think the decision came from your brain, which 'decides' things in a way not unlike a coin toss. And its 'decisions' are not really different from the coin's.
"Are you saying in essence that the decision not to believe in God did not originate from me? "
No, obviously it came from your brain.
"Let me ask you. If you think the decision was not made by my brain, and so by me, then were did the decision come from?"
well, let's take a scientific approach to this, only admitting evidence from observation or experimentation... I do think the decision came from your brain, which 'decides' things in a way not unlike a coin toss. And its 'decisions' are not really different from the coin's.
"Are you saying in essence that the decision not to believe in God did not originate from me? "
No, obviously it came from your brain.
I don't think you are up to date on this issue, so i will fill you in 
A Pharaoh named King Thom has a interesting story...
The story goes that a God created a whirl pool in the red sea, and the Pharaoh jumped in to do battle but was drowned and never found again...
Well this is very interesting, but that would not make sense... I thought the egyptions never had Hebrew slaves... And if this were the God of the bible, don't you think that they would record the curses and plagues as well?
Well in 1828 they found a very interesting papyrus from Egypt... Here it goes...
PAPYRUS 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
PAPYRUS 2:10 Men shrink from tasting -- human beings and thirst after water.
PAPYRUS 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
PAPYRUS 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan.
PAPYRUS 4:14 Trees are destroyed.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found...
PAPYRUS 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
PAPYRUS 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps...The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong (by right) wheat and barley, geese and fish.
PAPYRUS 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
PAPYRUS 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which yesterday was seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found...hunger.
PAPYRUS 9:11 The land is not light...
PAPYRUS 4:3, 5:6 Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
PAPYRUS 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.
PAPYRUS 6:3 The prison is ruined.
PAPYRUS 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.
PAPYRUS 3:14 It is groaning that is throughout the land, mingled with lamentations.
PAPYRUS 4:4, 6:14 Forsooth, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid on the high ground.
PAPYRUS 3:2-3 (gold and jewels) are fastened on the neck of female slaves.
PAPYRUS 4:2 Forsooth, great and small say: I wish I might die.
PAPYRUS 5:14f. Would that there might be an end of men, no conception, no birth! Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult be no more!
PAPYRUS 10:2 Men flee. . . . Tents are what they make like the dwellers of the hills.
PAPYRUS 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.
PAPYRUS 7:1-2 ...weep...the earth is...on every side...weep..
PAPYRUS 6:9 Forsooth, the laws of the judgment-hall are cast forth. Men walk upon (them) in the public places.
PAPYRUS 10:3 The storehouse of the king is the common property of everyone.
PAPYRUS 8:14 Behold, the chiefs of the land flee.
PAPYRUS 9:2 Behold, no offices are in their (right) place, like a frightened herd without a herdsman.
PAPYRUS 6:7 Forsooth, public offices are opened and their census-lists are taken away.
PAPYRUS 3:1 Forsooth, the Desert is throughout the land. The nomes are laid waste. A foreign tribe from abroad has come to Egypt.
PAPYRUS 15:1 What has happened? -- through it is to cause the Asiatics to know the condition of the land.
PAPYRUS 14:11 Men -- They have come to an end for them selves. There are none found to stand and protect themselves.
PAPYRUS 12:6ff. Today fear -- more than a million of people. No seen -- enemies -- enter into the temples -- weep.
So by now you have probably researched this papyrus.. if you have not here is a wiki about it real quick... It is legitimate.. Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But wait, that is not all it continues, they found a shrine dedicated to this time that says...
Now when the majesty of Ra-Harmachis fought with the evil-doers in this pool, the Place of the Whirlpool, the evil-doers prevailed not over his majesty. His majesty leaped into the so-called Place of the Whirlpool. His Majesty (words are missing) finds on this place called Pi-Kharoti.
give him the information about all that happened to Ra in Yat Nebes, the combats of the king Thoum.
These rebels, they came from the mountains of the Orient by all the ways of Yat Nebes.
The shrine also says that the Pharaoh never returned but entered heaven...
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!
So now no story would be complete without proof, well they have found chariots under the waters of the red sea stretched out for 1.5 miles... If you are familiar with the red sea you might ask, BUT HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THEY CROSSED??? ISN'T THE READ SEA BASICALLY A TRENCH? You are right... The red sea slowly goes out for about 100ft. and then suddenly a vertical drop that is a few thousand feet!!!! But there is one place that is not... Here is a picture.
That is pretty cool!
But wait there is more!
On both sides of that location they found a monument from Solomon himself, it states in a paraphrase this is where Moses crossed the red sea when God delivered them from Egypt.
Further on they found a mountain, that is burnt black on the top, it is unlike every other mountain, down below is a square platform the exact description of where the Israelite's made a graven idol of a calf. But the coolest part is. Once a year a migration of quail come to that area after a huge journey... They are sooooo tired you can literately reach down and grab them...
This is the story of the Red Sea crossing... Now disprove it... If you cannot you have to admit that there are miracles in this story... Miracles only a God could do... This means the God of the bible is correct... You have enough logic to find out what that means
A Pharaoh named King Thom has a interesting story...
The story goes that a God created a whirl pool in the red sea, and the Pharaoh jumped in to do battle but was drowned and never found again...
Well this is very interesting, but that would not make sense... I thought the egyptions never had Hebrew slaves... And if this were the God of the bible, don't you think that they would record the curses and plagues as well?
Well in 1828 they found a very interesting papyrus from Egypt... Here it goes...
PAPYRUS 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.
PAPYRUS 2:10 Men shrink from tasting -- human beings and thirst after water.
PAPYRUS 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
PAPYRUS 5:5 All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan.
PAPYRUS 4:14 Trees are destroyed.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found...
PAPYRUS 2:10 Forsooth, gates, columns and walls are consumed by fire.
PAPYRUS 10:3-6 Lower Egypt weeps...The entire palace is without its revenues. To it belong (by right) wheat and barley, geese and fish.
PAPYRUS 6:3 Forsooth, grain has perished on every side.
PAPYRUS 5:12 Forsooth, that has perished which yesterday was seen. The land is left over to its weariness like the cutting of flax.
PAPYRUS 6:1 No fruit nor herbs are found...hunger.
PAPYRUS 9:11 The land is not light...
PAPYRUS 4:3, 5:6 Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls.
PAPYRUS 6:12 Forsooth, the children of princes are cast out in the streets.
PAPYRUS 6:3 The prison is ruined.
PAPYRUS 2:13 He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere.
PAPYRUS 3:14 It is groaning that is throughout the land, mingled with lamentations.
PAPYRUS 4:4, 6:14 Forsooth, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid on the high ground.
PAPYRUS 3:2-3 (gold and jewels) are fastened on the neck of female slaves.
PAPYRUS 4:2 Forsooth, great and small say: I wish I might die.
PAPYRUS 5:14f. Would that there might be an end of men, no conception, no birth! Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult be no more!
PAPYRUS 10:2 Men flee. . . . Tents are what they make like the dwellers of the hills.
PAPYRUS 7:1 Behold, the fire has mounted up on high. Its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.
PAPYRUS 7:1-2 ...weep...the earth is...on every side...weep..
PAPYRUS 6:9 Forsooth, the laws of the judgment-hall are cast forth. Men walk upon (them) in the public places.
PAPYRUS 10:3 The storehouse of the king is the common property of everyone.
PAPYRUS 8:14 Behold, the chiefs of the land flee.
PAPYRUS 9:2 Behold, no offices are in their (right) place, like a frightened herd without a herdsman.
PAPYRUS 6:7 Forsooth, public offices are opened and their census-lists are taken away.
PAPYRUS 3:1 Forsooth, the Desert is throughout the land. The nomes are laid waste. A foreign tribe from abroad has come to Egypt.
PAPYRUS 15:1 What has happened? -- through it is to cause the Asiatics to know the condition of the land.
PAPYRUS 14:11 Men -- They have come to an end for them selves. There are none found to stand and protect themselves.
PAPYRUS 12:6ff. Today fear -- more than a million of people. No seen -- enemies -- enter into the temples -- weep.
So by now you have probably researched this papyrus.. if you have not here is a wiki about it real quick... It is legitimate.. Ipuwer Papyrus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But wait, that is not all it continues, they found a shrine dedicated to this time that says...
Now when the majesty of Ra-Harmachis fought with the evil-doers in this pool, the Place of the Whirlpool, the evil-doers prevailed not over his majesty. His majesty leaped into the so-called Place of the Whirlpool. His Majesty (words are missing) finds on this place called Pi-Kharoti.
give him the information about all that happened to Ra in Yat Nebes, the combats of the king Thoum.
These rebels, they came from the mountains of the Orient by all the ways of Yat Nebes.
The shrine also says that the Pharaoh never returned but entered heaven...
BUT WAIT THERE'S MORE!
So now no story would be complete without proof, well they have found chariots under the waters of the red sea stretched out for 1.5 miles... If you are familiar with the red sea you might ask, BUT HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THEY CROSSED??? ISN'T THE READ SEA BASICALLY A TRENCH? You are right... The red sea slowly goes out for about 100ft. and then suddenly a vertical drop that is a few thousand feet!!!! But there is one place that is not... Here is a picture.
That is pretty cool!
But wait there is more!
On both sides of that location they found a monument from Solomon himself, it states in a paraphrase this is where Moses crossed the red sea when God delivered them from Egypt.
Further on they found a mountain, that is burnt black on the top, it is unlike every other mountain, down below is a square platform the exact description of where the Israelite's made a graven idol of a calf. But the coolest part is. Once a year a migration of quail come to that area after a huge journey... They are sooooo tired you can literately reach down and grab them...
This is the story of the Red Sea crossing... Now disprove it... If you cannot you have to admit that there are miracles in this story... Miracles only a God could do... This means the God of the bible is correct... You have enough logic to find out what that means
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If I decided things on a coin toss, then I'd only get to work 50% of the time and I'd run 50% of red lights. I'd be dead.
Straw man? Only an analogy? What are you going on about? He presented the brain as functioning like a coin toss, not I. If that is not what he meant then I don't understand at all what he is talking about. Perhaps you can explain using other language so I will understand?
Is religious thinking somehow bound up in this? I am at a total loss. It is my impression that I make my own decisions. Does the Bible say otherwise? Are you two Calvinists perhaps?
Is religious thinking somehow bound up in this? I am at a total loss. It is my impression that I make my own decisions. Does the Bible say otherwise? Are you two Calvinists perhaps?
H
By lower and higher I meant an organism that was not as complex as another organism. I understand that bees did not evolve from the wasps we see today, but that doesn't explain why we see bees and pollinator wasps occupying the same niche.
Can I ask what u think about the dragonfly? There is no scientific evidence as to why dragonflies come out of the water during their developmental process. But science shows peek numbers of release during increased food source....so what evolutionary trigger says we need to be out of the water in mass numbers? Not only that but when the food source is lower, the dragonflies release in smaller numbers.
are there fossils of any other species under that order?
but u need faith that abiogenesis is an accurate description of how life began. U need faith because it hasn't been proven...because there is no evidence of it. So....I don't believe for a second that saying u don't believe in God is like saying that u don't believe in Bigfoot. U said yourself that you honestly cannot know either way
i know this wasn't directed at me but...how can u know that?
What u said makes perfect sense. Lack of evidence doesn't give a yea or nay vote...it simply says I don't know. Yet the rise of life from nonlife is given more credence then life having a supernatural beginning. Why? If both theories lack evidence....then why are atheists so quick to discredit the existence of God in favor of a theory with the same amount, or lack of, evidence?
Can I ask what u think about the dragonfly? There is no scientific evidence as to why dragonflies come out of the water during their developmental process. But science shows peek numbers of release during increased food source....so what evolutionary trigger says we need to be out of the water in mass numbers? Not only that but when the food source is lower, the dragonflies release in smaller numbers.
are there fossils of any other species under that order?
but u need faith that abiogenesis is an accurate description of how life began. U need faith because it hasn't been proven...because there is no evidence of it. So....I don't believe for a second that saying u don't believe in God is like saying that u don't believe in Bigfoot. U said yourself that you honestly cannot know either way
i know this wasn't directed at me but...how can u know that?
What u said makes perfect sense. Lack of evidence doesn't give a yea or nay vote...it simply says I don't know. Yet the rise of life from nonlife is given more credence then life having a supernatural beginning. Why? If both theories lack evidence....then why are atheists so quick to discredit the existence of God in favor of a theory with the same amount, or lack of, evidence?
I'm not sure what you mean by same niche.
Dragonflies lay their eggs in water and the nymph stage of a dragonfly's life actually takes place in water. Why did dragonflies evolve in such a way, I'm not sure. But just because we're not sure of something doesn't mean the entire evolutionary theory falls to the ground - there will always be questions that may or may not be answered.
I'm not sure what you're trying to ask here because it sounds like you answered your own question. When flood waters rise, the environment size increases and allows more dragonfly eggs and nymphs to survive. When flood waters go back down, available resources such as food decreases.
Unfortunately, we don't have very many fossils of the platypus.
Talk origins will provide you with more information than I could about the platypus. Creationism and the Platypus
Keep in mind, we still have a very expansive record of fossils for a large number of species. So we don't really need he fossil record of the platypus to prove evolution because our existing fossil record is already proof enough. Hopefully more fossils will be unearthed in the future.
No, I don't rely on faith to accept abiogenesis. I accept abiogenesis on what studies have been done so far. It's definitely not conclusive and ultimately i have to say "I don't really know how life formed". But I will state that abiogensis is the most likely answer. I could be wrong, but I'm basing what I believe off of what seems the most probably with the evidence we have. And if evidence begins to support a different theory, I'll change my views accordingly.
But you are right in that abiogenesis has not been conclusively proven yet. But it is better supported than alternative theories including creationism.
I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between not knowing and saying what you think, and not knowing but saying you know something.
I don't know how life began, but I'll stick by the best supported theory. And if someone says they aren't convinced, that's okay because the study of abiogenesis is still very young. But when someone says they do know how life began and they don't have the evidence to support it - that's where I take issue.
Here's a video that will better answer your question regarding lack of belief in gods. I believe it may indirectly help you understand what I'm saying better:
[video=youtube;sNDZb0KtJDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk&list=UUc_xdkOBgSYLmXTn-VSQ4uA[/video]
This is the best source I can find at the moment: Evolution of the Atmosphere
Other sources would include publications in scientific journals but 1.) We'd have to pay for access to them and 2.) Neither one of us would likely understand a word considering how complicated the study is.
As I said earlier, there's a difference between saying: "I don't know, but here's what I think" and saying, "I know" while lacking evidence. But that's not the biggest problem.
The biggest problem is that creationists reject the evidence supporting evolution because it contradicts their views on how life began - despite the fact that their creationist views are not based on empirical evidence. Those who accept abiogenesis don't have this problem because evolution doesn't contradict abiogenesis. And even if evolution did contradict the theory of abiogenesis, we would have no problem admitting abiogenesis was wrong. Creationists, on the other hand, won't admit they're wrong and will do everything they can to deny evolution.
Dragonflies lay their eggs in water and the nymph stage of a dragonfly's life actually takes place in water. Why did dragonflies evolve in such a way, I'm not sure. But just because we're not sure of something doesn't mean the entire evolutionary theory falls to the ground - there will always be questions that may or may not be answered.
I'm not sure what you're trying to ask here because it sounds like you answered your own question. When flood waters rise, the environment size increases and allows more dragonfly eggs and nymphs to survive. When flood waters go back down, available resources such as food decreases.
Unfortunately, we don't have very many fossils of the platypus.
Talk origins will provide you with more information than I could about the platypus. Creationism and the Platypus
Keep in mind, we still have a very expansive record of fossils for a large number of species. So we don't really need he fossil record of the platypus to prove evolution because our existing fossil record is already proof enough. Hopefully more fossils will be unearthed in the future.
No, I don't rely on faith to accept abiogenesis. I accept abiogenesis on what studies have been done so far. It's definitely not conclusive and ultimately i have to say "I don't really know how life formed". But I will state that abiogensis is the most likely answer. I could be wrong, but I'm basing what I believe off of what seems the most probably with the evidence we have. And if evidence begins to support a different theory, I'll change my views accordingly.
But you are right in that abiogenesis has not been conclusively proven yet. But it is better supported than alternative theories including creationism.
I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between not knowing and saying what you think, and not knowing but saying you know something.
I don't know how life began, but I'll stick by the best supported theory. And if someone says they aren't convinced, that's okay because the study of abiogenesis is still very young. But when someone says they do know how life began and they don't have the evidence to support it - that's where I take issue.
Here's a video that will better answer your question regarding lack of belief in gods. I believe it may indirectly help you understand what I'm saying better:
[video=youtube;sNDZb0KtJDk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNDZb0KtJDk&list=UUc_xdkOBgSYLmXTn-VSQ4uA[/video]
This is the best source I can find at the moment: Evolution of the Atmosphere
Other sources would include publications in scientific journals but 1.) We'd have to pay for access to them and 2.) Neither one of us would likely understand a word considering how complicated the study is.
As I said earlier, there's a difference between saying: "I don't know, but here's what I think" and saying, "I know" while lacking evidence. But that's not the biggest problem.
The biggest problem is that creationists reject the evidence supporting evolution because it contradicts their views on how life began - despite the fact that their creationist views are not based on empirical evidence. Those who accept abiogenesis don't have this problem because evolution doesn't contradict abiogenesis. And even if evolution did contradict the theory of abiogenesis, we would have no problem admitting abiogenesis was wrong. Creationists, on the other hand, won't admit they're wrong and will do everything they can to deny evolution.
I see it as a mistake to claim one needs more faith to believe in abiogenesis. The choice we must make is between a supernatural origin of life, or a natural origin. You believe it requires more faith to accept a natural origin of life and less to believe a supernatural or magical origin.
Science readily explains how stars and planets formed without supernatural intervention. I fully expect the mystery of life's natural rise will one day be solved as well. I feel no urgency to plug God into the gap. I am content to wait for the explanation. The problem with the supernatural approach is that it is not really an explanation at all. It is a surrender to the unknown. It is a way of sidestepping the search for a natural explanation.
Science readily explains how stars and planets formed without supernatural intervention. I fully expect the mystery of life's natural rise will one day be solved as well. I feel no urgency to plug God into the gap. I am content to wait for the explanation. The problem with the supernatural approach is that it is not really an explanation at all. It is a surrender to the unknown. It is a way of sidestepping the search for a natural explanation.
A shape that looks like it might be a boat is not proof that the events in the Noah story are true and unembellished, and definitely not proof that any other story is true, and 100% not proof that there is a God. That being said, this is like the 5th "Noah's Ark" that has been found. None of them have been authenticated. Lets assume this really is a boat that carried some people and landed on a mountain that was in a story. Does this somehow prove that the entire story is true? It is generally accepted due to the various flood myths from the middle east that floods were common there. It wouldn't be too crazy to find that somebody built a boat back in the day. But assuming that this proves that the story of Noah is true is like saying that because New York is a real place, and the Empire State Building is observably real, the story of King Kong is true.
Found a higher definition image.
Source:
Noah's Ark Has Been Found. Why Are They Keeping Us In The Dark?
Of course, most of the proofs portrayed here were never actually verified by other scientists.
I'm utterly shocked, even AnswersInGenesis accepted this find to be a hoax: https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/special-report-amazing-ark-expose/
Source:
Noah's Ark Has Been Found. Why Are They Keeping Us In The Dark?
Of course, most of the proofs portrayed here were never actually verified by other scientists.
I'm utterly shocked, even AnswersInGenesis accepted this find to be a hoax: https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/special-report-amazing-ark-expose/
S
It does? I have not heard this explanation. After viewing a few 'cosmology 101' (if you will) documentaries, there is a lot to take in on the formation and foundation of the universe, but none of the evidence I've seen presented seemed to inherently dismiss any supernatural intervention.
If you have more on this, I'd be delighted to peruse that info.
That is something of a blanket statement that may not apply to everyone's ─ of faith, or not of it ─ actual conjecture. Is seeking/finding this explanation intrinsically synonymous with killing God? Can we not unearth new discoveries without being one step closer to affirming a creator never existed?
If you have more on this, I'd be delighted to peruse that info.
That is something of a blanket statement that may not apply to everyone's ─ of faith, or not of it ─ actual conjecture. Is seeking/finding this explanation intrinsically synonymous with killing God? Can we not unearth new discoveries without being one step closer to affirming a creator never existed?
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Genesis 9:13, NIV, I set My rainbow in the cloud, and it shall be for the sign of the covenant between Me and the earth.
God promised to never flood the earth again.Next time it will be with fire and brimstone.
A. God gave us the rainbow as evidence of his promise.
or
B. Someone looked at a rainbow and wrote about how God gave us the rainbow as evidence of his promise when rainbows have always naturally existed.