So just because we are not in the same time and place, and we dont use golden bull statues, we are perfect right?
man uses golden statue to worship Yah = damnation
man uses modern paganism to worship Yah = ?
QUESTION! (about Christmas and Easter)
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So just because we are not in the same time and place, and we dont use golden bull statues, we are perfect right?
man uses golden statue to worship Yah = damnation
man uses modern paganism to worship Yah = ?
It was your proof-text. I guess I'm simply saying that nobody these days is doing anything that the bible gives as a reason for the destruction of the Northern Kingdom by Assyria. It hardly follows that therefore everyone is perfect.
I was not putting that verse on any here, I never even hinted at that, Scripture is to read and glean from...So can we not read and lean from other people accounts?
What about the 100s of times HE says how important HIS name is and not to worship Him using pagan practices?
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
No we are not perfect in the since that we live sin free lives, to never sin again.
But we are not held to written ordinances of the mosaic covenant. To prove your point you need to use scripture from the new covenant we are under. There are a few scriptures in the NT that show we are not held to those ways, customs, traditions, and written ordinances. Acts 15 is one of those clear chapters that says we as gentile believers are to follow from the old ways. This chapter was brought on because of the arguing that was going on Jewish converts trying to force the old ways on gentile converts.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Text does not convey tone what I say here IS sincere.
Acts 15 was about people coming into the congregation. Which I might add I have never seen a modern church or even any person require this of others as they did in Acts...
But yes come as you are NOT stay as you are....
abstain from blood....
to enter in....
abstain from blood....
...
So this was all they required? Stealing would be permitted then....
So back then you couldnt enter in if you ate meat with blood in it (lol strangled with blood, terrible translation) but now its ok to celebrate pagan practices?
Acts 24:14, "But I confess this to you, that after the way which they call heresy--so I worship the Father of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets."
Romans 7:25, "Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin."
Would a ham on christmas be "meats offered to idols"
If the tree is there that is certianly an idol, even if there is not a tree honoring a pagan day is a form of idolatry, and a cured ham on that day....
by definition that meal was prepared for that high day...
if said high day is pagan, said meal prepared for said day could be "meats offered to idols"
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Now your throwing God's moral laws into the mix, which was contained in the 10 commandments.
The written ordinance in the mosaic law that says not to use the same methods as pagans use in worship is not a moral law but a written ordinance.
This chapter was about what gentile converts should follow compared to Jewish converts. Peter debated with Paul over this, and that is what lead to this on what part of the written ordinances we should follow. The moral laws of God always apply. As a Christian you have to learn to rightly divide the word and you would see the difference from God's moral laws and the mosaic laws. One we are under, one we are not.
Are you saying we are making meat for the tree god and not our families ? ... I pray to Jesus, that He bless the meal which we receive and am thankful for everyday .. I don't do as a pagan does... Whatever they do.. That's just your interpretation brother..
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
Not if you are celebrating the day as the birth of our Lord, giving the day to God.
The tree is only an idol if you put it before God, and idol is not just an item in your house. It has to be an item that you give authority, worship, or praise to.
You go way over board on this, and act like just because the item is in your house it is an idol. It is the emphasis you place on the object that makes it an idol, not just having it.
If that is what you think that just because we have it automatically makes it an idol.
Then I suggest you get rid of your computer, phone, tv, radio, car, and money for all of those are idols too a degree to. So if you want to consider what we do as idol worship, even though we do not worship these things. Then you better get rid of all your idols as well.
Both of you completely missed my point.
OK, everything else aside.
If one was to celebrate a "high day of paganism" (not christmas) and prepare a special meal for that "high day of paganism"
COULD that meat be considered "meat offered to idols?"
That precept is stated IN ACTS 15
How can you say im throwing into mix.
That precept is STATED IN the passage you quoted....
Acts 15 says not to eat blood.
Call it what ever you want, moral, ceremonial, jibber jabber, I want to know in your view...
is eating blood permissible to the "NT" believer?
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
We did not miss your point, and I can see by your question that you are going to try and twist any answer we give.
So I will answer in a manner you can not twist.
If you celebrate a pagan holiday and offer that food to that pagan god then yes it is paganistic and food we are not to eat.
However we do not celebrate Christmas as a pagan holiday, we celebrate it in honor of our Lord and Savior and we pray and give Him thanks for the gathering together of our family members and the food He has provided for us to eat.
The day is not given over to pagan worship by us, nor is the food offered over to pagan gods........
No I was not going to bate and switch, I wanted your opinion so I asked, and sincerely thank you for answering.
H
Hoffco
Guest
To Kenethcadwel, You are quoted in post 461, in which you mention the 7 covenants in the Bible. I basically believe in what you said. I will add this note. That God has always saved His "ELECT" by His ETERNAL COVENANT of GRACE. Adam and Eve were the first sinners to be saved. All the 6 covenants in the Old Covenant never saved one soul. As, Hebrews tells us, "the blood" of the old t. covenants could not wash away sins; Only Jesus blood can save. Of course, there was no blood in the Cov. of works with Adam. The only way the O.T. Elect were saved was by the Blood of Jesus. This "mystery" was only revealed "in Christ". Col. 1:26-29. The New Covenant, which is made with Israel and Judah is the final cov. and is the expression of this Mystery Cov. spoken of in Romans 8:29-30 and in Heb.13:20-21 . Those who are saved, from all ages, are a part of the "elect" of this Mystery Covenant of God's Grace. This eternal cov. of God's saving Grace, unifies all the Saved of all the ages. ONLY the "elect" of all the ages will inherit the promises given in all the Covenants of the Bible. The saved of all the ages will be"perfected" at the same time: At the Creation of the New Heavens and the New Earth. Love to all, Hoffco
This looks like something formed by man and made from bronze or something. If I didn't know this was somebodies god, then I could think this was a old age spider man... Looks like a good paper weight or door stopper.. I wouldn't be revering the door stopper though.. So no, a idol is something worshiped by the one worshiping..Also would it be permissible for a "NT" believer to have this statue sitting in their house as long as they dont worship it? and if it is not worshiped does that mean it is not an idol, or is it an idol eiter way?
H
Hoffco
Guest
To Kennethcadwell, I totally agree with you on your view of Christmas. It is a great time to witness of our faith and lead the lost to Christ. Love to all, Hoffco
Also would it be permissible for a "NT" believer to have this statue sitting in their house as long as they dont worship it? and if it is not worshiped does that mean it is not an idol, or is it an idol eiter way?
According to the meaning of the word, it is an idol no matter if it is worshiped or not.
6459 - pesel: an idol, image
Original Word: פֶּ֫סֶל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: pesel
Phonetic Spelling: (peh'-sel)
Short Definition: image
Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) idol, image
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
From H6458; an idol:—carved (graven) image.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)
- #6459.
- פֶּסֶל
- pesel (820d); from 6458; an idol, image:—
- NASB - carved image(2), graven image(14), graven images(1), idol(10), idols(3), image(1).
[SUP]
4 [/SUP]“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]You shall not bow down to them or worship them;
1 - You shall not make for yourself an image
2 - You shall not bow down to them or worship them
answered in bold
Even if it is " someone's idol " .. Your showing me a picture of it now... Are you worshiping it ? No... Your using it for educational purposes ...that's your intent...
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I did not say you did, Im trying to show that if a person did own this thing, it is an idol if they worship it or not.