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Oh, hey, you accept evolution? Awesome! Because there's absolutely no reason you would try to convince people a theory is wrong when you believe the theory is wrong! Why waste your time? (Do you understand how flawed your assertion is?)
We should base our lives off of what we can logically conclude. If belief in God is illogical, then we should want ourselves and other people to take the more logical route. This is why those of us who feel belief in gods is unjustified and illogical do what we can to try and reveal the fallacies of religious apologetic. And I'm sure you feel the opposite is true and that atheism is illogical, and it would be asinine for me to say, "If you believe God is real, why waste time talking about atheism?" Well, if you believe God is real and that other people are wrong not to believe in him, that's all the MORE reason to talk about atheism!
If it effected you or your loved ones, yes you would. What if a large number of people in America began to worship aliens, claiming them to be our overlords and creators? What if these people became the majority in America and they decided they would only vote for politicians who worshiped these unseen alien overlords? What if these people felt it was offensive for people to have more than 2 children because it might threaten the alien overlords so they wanted to force men into surgery preventing them from having a 3rd child? What if these people spent millions of dollars on UFO landing pads?
Would you not stand up and say, "There's no evidence that aliens created us, that they know of us, or that they even exist! Stop wasting you time, energy, and money on such a flawed belief! Stop living in fear of these creatures?" Would you honestly not stand up against this new belief? And if you personally didn't, would you feel those who did challenge this flawed belief were being illogical?
Most importantly, what if your Christian friends began to talk about how these aliens weren't real and an alien worshiper claimed "If you don't believe in alien overlords, why do you spend so much time talking about how alien overlords aren't real?"
[video=youtube;xnbXlkNavwo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbXlkNavwo[/video]
Your belief in God isn't based on Pascal's wager, great. But you just said:
You're suggesting that it's logical to believe in God just in case it's possible we're wrong. Even though you don't personally base your beliefs on Pascal's wager, you're still condoning such flawed reasoning.
Wrong.
You believe in God because you want an excuse to beat children! (Of course you don't, but if you're going to make stuff up about us atheists, I'm going to do the same to you. So let's show each other some respect and not make stuff up.)
You're a good example of a reason as to why I'm here. I'm not here because I think God is real and I want to know him, one reason I'm here (out of a small number) is because I feel it's important to dispel common misconceptions people have about atheists such as the one you spewed.
We should base our lives off of what we can logically conclude. If belief in God is illogical, then we should want ourselves and other people to take the more logical route. This is why those of us who feel belief in gods is unjustified and illogical do what we can to try and reveal the fallacies of religious apologetic. And I'm sure you feel the opposite is true and that atheism is illogical, and it would be asinine for me to say, "If you believe God is real, why waste time talking about atheism?" Well, if you believe God is real and that other people are wrong not to believe in him, that's all the MORE reason to talk about atheism!
If it effected you or your loved ones, yes you would. What if a large number of people in America began to worship aliens, claiming them to be our overlords and creators? What if these people became the majority in America and they decided they would only vote for politicians who worshiped these unseen alien overlords? What if these people felt it was offensive for people to have more than 2 children because it might threaten the alien overlords so they wanted to force men into surgery preventing them from having a 3rd child? What if these people spent millions of dollars on UFO landing pads?
Would you not stand up and say, "There's no evidence that aliens created us, that they know of us, or that they even exist! Stop wasting you time, energy, and money on such a flawed belief! Stop living in fear of these creatures?" Would you honestly not stand up against this new belief? And if you personally didn't, would you feel those who did challenge this flawed belief were being illogical?
Most importantly, what if your Christian friends began to talk about how these aliens weren't real and an alien worshiper claimed "If you don't believe in alien overlords, why do you spend so much time talking about how alien overlords aren't real?"
[video=youtube;xnbXlkNavwo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnbXlkNavwo[/video]
Your belief in God isn't based on Pascal's wager, great. But you just said:
You're suggesting that it's logical to believe in God just in case it's possible we're wrong. Even though you don't personally base your beliefs on Pascal's wager, you're still condoning such flawed reasoning.
Wrong.
You believe in God because you want an excuse to beat children! (Of course you don't, but if you're going to make stuff up about us atheists, I'm going to do the same to you. So let's show each other some respect and not make stuff up.)
You're a good example of a reason as to why I'm here. I'm not here because I think God is real and I want to know him, one reason I'm here (out of a small number) is because I feel it's important to dispel common misconceptions people have about atheists such as the one you spewed.
That's Pascal's Wager.
The question is can you simply choose to believe something that you don't believe in?
I can't just decide to believe in Zeus for the obvious reason that I don't think Zeus exists in the first place. Anyone wanting me to believe in Zeus had better provide some very powerful arguments for his existence. It is not enough to tell me there will be great rewards if I choose to believe, for how can I make myself believe in something that I don't think is real?
The same is true of God, just as it is for Zeus, or any other deity you might care to name. I suspect that this might be difficult for you to understand. Believing in God as you do, you think believing in him should be easy. Well it's not.
The question is can you simply choose to believe something that you don't believe in?
I can't just decide to believe in Zeus for the obvious reason that I don't think Zeus exists in the first place. Anyone wanting me to believe in Zeus had better provide some very powerful arguments for his existence. It is not enough to tell me there will be great rewards if I choose to believe, for how can I make myself believe in something that I don't think is real?
The same is true of God, just as it is for Zeus, or any other deity you might care to name. I suspect that this might be difficult for you to understand. Believing in God as you do, you think believing in him should be easy. Well it's not.
Very interesting video with excellent points of the belief system. I do agree man's religions cause confusion, wars, hatred, slavery and even death. Because man think he is a god since the fall in Garden of Eden. Adam had a beautiful peaceful joyful and worry free life until Lucifer(false light/deception) enter into the Garden of Life. Since that time, Man has been god on earth controlling what happens in this world because of self knowledge. If a person research the history of religion since Roman Time will discover that man(Julius Caesar) consider himself a god(imperial cult) through royalty bloodline. If Christians research the history of religion they will learn all religions today are of old just repackage to seem new. Even indigenous people knew there was a creator of this earth, knew difference between good and evil. Every since man disobeyed YAHWEH in the Garden of Eden he has been lost in confusion of ones knowledge. All these religions are just man's opinions on Sacred Word because if a person does not agree on the doctrine then he will start his own church base on his perspectives(stand point) of what he thinks the Sacred Words mean. Great example of this is the trinity belief because many basic bible Christians do not know about Nicene Creed.
[h=2]A brief history[/h]The doctrine of the Trinity was formally developed in the early church in reaction to errant teaching on the nature of God as found inArianism. Arianism attempted to protect monotheism (the belief in one God) by denying the full deity of Jesus, a belief most Christians held at this time. Arianism taught that Jesus was divine, but that he was a lesser deity than the Father. To affirm the Church's stance on the nature of God, the Trinity was formally stated in the Nicene Creed(325 A.D.) and the later Athanasian Creed. As a result of these early ecumenical creeds, any departure from the Christian doctrineof the Trinity was considered heresy. These creeds affirm the early Christian conviction that Jesus was God. Arianism caused the church to dogmatically affirm what was already believed and inherent to the earliest of Christian theology.
The term "Trinity", is not found in the Bible. Theophilus of Antioch around 180 A.D. first used the Greek term trias(a set of three) in reference to God, his Word, and his Wisdom. However, Tertullianin 215 A.D. was the first one to state this doctrine using the Latin term,Trinitas(Trinity), referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (W. Fulton in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).
[h=2]A brief history[/h]The doctrine of the Trinity was formally developed in the early church in reaction to errant teaching on the nature of God as found inArianism. Arianism attempted to protect monotheism (the belief in one God) by denying the full deity of Jesus, a belief most Christians held at this time. Arianism taught that Jesus was divine, but that he was a lesser deity than the Father. To affirm the Church's stance on the nature of God, the Trinity was formally stated in the Nicene Creed(325 A.D.) and the later Athanasian Creed. As a result of these early ecumenical creeds, any departure from the Christian doctrineof the Trinity was considered heresy. These creeds affirm the early Christian conviction that Jesus was God. Arianism caused the church to dogmatically affirm what was already believed and inherent to the earliest of Christian theology.
The term "Trinity", is not found in the Bible. Theophilus of Antioch around 180 A.D. first used the Greek term trias(a set of three) in reference to God, his Word, and his Wisdom. However, Tertullianin 215 A.D. was the first one to state this doctrine using the Latin term,Trinitas(Trinity), referring to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (W. Fulton in the Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).
- Eden, Garden of definition. The beautiful garden containing the tree of life, where God intended Adam and Eve to live in peaceful and contented innocence, effortlessly reaping the fruits of the Earth. The garden also contained the tree of knowledge of good and evil, from which Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat.
I personally believe in Creator of this Universe not base on man's religion, but base on my struggles, hardships, pain, hurt, trials, and reality. I know there is a Creator of life because I have a SOUL. YAHWEH has reveal TRUTH to me that we are all connect because of the soul. There is only one race that is humanity despite our difference in religion that can cause wars, hatred, and death. Are we truly serving the same GOD?
No Offence (NO-Percepi) but you have no clue what I believe and your argument and what you believe is just as much a BELIEF system based upon no real perceived facts....and is opinion, supposition, guesses, conjecture and every other word of like caliber and order! Oh let me guess.....some guys with pieces of paper hanging in a glass on the wall which states that they know something makes them correct.....whatever dude...my question was without heat and or attitude and it seems that is all anybody ever gets from you...maybe loose the (APE) genes/attitude and come on line as a HUMAN BEING! 
HAHAH!
HAHAH!Wonderful, and I believe that's all in your head.
Many people feel this wonderful sensation when they worship God. How can they feel such a thing if God isn't really there? Allow me to explain:
Imagine a guy meets a wonderful girl and the two of them quickly become friends. As time goes on, he realizes he love her and he becomes certain she feels the same way about him. Night after night, he lays in bed feeling so happy and warm inside because he knows he loves her and he knows she loves him too! He finally decides to ask her out. As he approaches her, he feels overwhelmed with happiness knowing the two of them are going to be there for each other. He asks her out, and she tells him, "I'm sorry, I like you as a friend but that's all. I don't feel the same way towards you."
Notice in the above scenario how this guy felt overwhelmed with happiness and warmth when he believed the girl he liked, loved him in return. How is it possible he felt warmth and joy when the girl didn't actually love him? This just goes to show you that feeling loved doesn't mean you actually are loved, in the same way feeling God's presence inside of you doesn't actually mean he's there.
This is why I don't rely on that "fuzzy feeling" to determine whether or not God is real. This is why going to church and feeling happy, overjoyed, warm, etc., wouldn't prove anything to me.
Many people feel this wonderful sensation when they worship God. How can they feel such a thing if God isn't really there? Allow me to explain:
Imagine a guy meets a wonderful girl and the two of them quickly become friends. As time goes on, he realizes he love her and he becomes certain she feels the same way about him. Night after night, he lays in bed feeling so happy and warm inside because he knows he loves her and he knows she loves him too! He finally decides to ask her out. As he approaches her, he feels overwhelmed with happiness knowing the two of them are going to be there for each other. He asks her out, and she tells him, "I'm sorry, I like you as a friend but that's all. I don't feel the same way towards you."
Notice in the above scenario how this guy felt overwhelmed with happiness and warmth when he believed the girl he liked, loved him in return. How is it possible he felt warmth and joy when the girl didn't actually love him? This just goes to show you that feeling loved doesn't mean you actually are loved, in the same way feeling God's presence inside of you doesn't actually mean he's there.
This is why I don't rely on that "fuzzy feeling" to determine whether or not God is real. This is why going to church and feeling happy, overjoyed, warm, etc., wouldn't prove anything to me.
If you had never experienced Christ, as I have not, then how would you feel? Remember, I did try very hard to believe, I have pointed this out, but God never reached out to me. The resulting lack of belief is what you see now.
Also, I have no interest in destroying your belief in God. I would only seek to turn you to the light of science.
Thank you for the sentiment.
Also, I have no interest in destroying your belief in God. I would only seek to turn you to the light of science.
Thank you for the sentiment.
No Offence (NO-Percepi) but you have no clue what I believe and your argument and what you believe is just as much a BELIEF system based upon no real perceived facts....and is opinion, supposition, guesses, conjecture and every other word of like caliber and order! Oh let me guess.....some guys with pieces of paper hanging in a glass on the wall which states that they know something makes them correct.....whatever dude...my question was without heat and or attitude and it seems that is all anybody ever gets from you...maybe loose the (APE) genes/attitude and come on line as a HUMAN BEING! HAHAH!
HAHAH!
Second, you accuse me of making assumptions about your views. I made some assumptions I felt were safe, such as how you would spend time discussing something you felt wasn't real if it effected you or your loved ones. If I was wrong, about this or anything else I said about what you would do or how you would feel, let me know. Be specific with what I said and what you would actually do/feel.
Ok.....Fair enough....
First... I could care less if Americans started worshipping aliens, Santa Claus or the Pied Piper....what someone else worships is irrelevant to me....it will not change my mind about what I believe...
Second....Your criticism is understood and to what end would it matter if you could possible persuade someone of your (logical) approach to science as opposed to GOD...how could that possibly affect their lives...? Whereas a belief in GOD has taken many a life and transformed them into a very productive, tax paying, working citizen!
Third....if something isn't real and I do not believe it is real, why would I discuss it with my family if I perceived that it would bring no value to the table and or impact the lives of my loved ones for the better?
Fourth....To compare a belief in Aliens and God is a fallacy to some extent...If I was approached by one who believed such things (belief in and worship of aliens) and was engaged, I would respond with exactly what I think...just as everyone else would....
Look...the end game is this......The odds of changing the mind of those who have had a life changing experience by belief in God is slim to none. For those who have (seen) him work beyond mathematical possibility and or coincidence.....their minds will never be changed...
Is it logical to you that a man would die for what he believes? Would you die for the science you believe in? A man that genuinely believes in God will die for what they believe in...you, science and any other thing of like caliber and order will NOT change their mind!
First... I could care less if Americans started worshipping aliens, Santa Claus or the Pied Piper....what someone else worships is irrelevant to me....it will not change my mind about what I believe...
Second....Your criticism is understood and to what end would it matter if you could possible persuade someone of your (logical) approach to science as opposed to GOD...how could that possibly affect their lives...? Whereas a belief in GOD has taken many a life and transformed them into a very productive, tax paying, working citizen!
Third....if something isn't real and I do not believe it is real, why would I discuss it with my family if I perceived that it would bring no value to the table and or impact the lives of my loved ones for the better?
Fourth....To compare a belief in Aliens and God is a fallacy to some extent...If I was approached by one who believed such things (belief in and worship of aliens) and was engaged, I would respond with exactly what I think...just as everyone else would....
Look...the end game is this......The odds of changing the mind of those who have had a life changing experience by belief in God is slim to none. For those who have (seen) him work beyond mathematical possibility and or coincidence.....their minds will never be changed...
Is it logical to you that a man would die for what he believes? Would you die for the science you believe in? A man that genuinely believes in God will die for what they believe in...you, science and any other thing of like caliber and order will NOT change their mind!
That's not what I asked. I asked you if you would speak out against this belief (which clearly has a strong influence on people). I asked how you would feel about other people speaking out against this belief. I asked how you would feel if someone used your own argument against you or others who debated the existence of aliens.
I never asked whether or not you would change your mind.
Right because atheists aren't productive, hard working, tax payers. (this is sarcasm)
Outspoken atheists believe what they say can make a difference, and it often does. Just because you feel it's meaningless doesn't mean everyone does. And even if you were right and debating God's existence didn't impact anyone, it wouldn't change the fact that atheists are trying to influence those around them.
You have this idea that just because you wouldn't act a certain way, it wouldn't make sense for anyone else to act differently. Therefore, you come to flawed conclusions such as your accusation that atheists do actually believe in God if they're trying to debate his existence so much.
No, it's not fallacious by any means because I was stating how debating against something you don't believe in isn't proof you actually believe in said thing.
Fine, whether or not this is true doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about why atheists debate God's existence.
You're looking for loopholes in my argument but you're forgetting the topic as you do so. Remember, I'm addressing your claim that atheists wouldn't debate God unless they secretly believe in him.
I never asked whether or not you would change your mind.
Right because atheists aren't productive, hard working, tax payers. (this is sarcasm)
Outspoken atheists believe what they say can make a difference, and it often does. Just because you feel it's meaningless doesn't mean everyone does. And even if you were right and debating God's existence didn't impact anyone, it wouldn't change the fact that atheists are trying to influence those around them.
You have this idea that just because you wouldn't act a certain way, it wouldn't make sense for anyone else to act differently. Therefore, you come to flawed conclusions such as your accusation that atheists do actually believe in God if they're trying to debate his existence so much.
No, it's not fallacious by any means because I was stating how debating against something you don't believe in isn't proof you actually believe in said thing.
Fine, whether or not this is true doesn't change the fact that you were wrong about why atheists debate God's existence.
You're looking for loopholes in my argument but you're forgetting the topic as you do so. Remember, I'm addressing your claim that atheists wouldn't debate God unless they secretly believe in him.
If I believed something doesn't exist I will not waste my time on it.....!
Didn't apply any of the bolded in your post......!
[/B][/U]
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
I find it interesting that atheists spend the time trying to convince those around them that a God they don't believe in doesn't exist....Why do atheists feel so threatened and have to spend the time to do the above bolded if in their mind God does not exist?
If I believed something doesn't exist I will not waste my time on it.....!
Didn't apply any of the bolded in your post......!
If I believed something doesn't exist I will not waste my time on it.....!
Didn't apply any of the bolded in your post......!
I don't believe that aliens frequent Roswell, NM (or have ever been there), but I just make a quick comment when it comes up. I don't spend hours on an alien website!
While I cannot approach this from an atheist point of view (sincerely, anyway), I must say that it makes a lot more sense to be passionate about God than "not god". Again, I'm not passionate about convincing people that there are not aliens - but I will discuss the issue if it is brought up (and not on a alien enthusiast website - because I won't be on one).
For me, this is the best, if not only, point that you made. If a belief system is having a negative (or unwanted) effect on my life, family, and/or friends then I would be compelled to become active. And, honestly, I see how you could have made that argument in our country's past - perhaps you're just trying to keep it at bay. But in modern America there is little to no support for the Christian. We are not allowed to mention God in government buildings. Christian businesses are required to provide coverage for abortions (actually, I know that a lawsuit was pending, but I have not heard what the outcome was, if they've reached one). Ministers are being required to perform marriages for homosexuals.
There are also other religions that profess a god other than God, and I don't spend hours on those websites (perhaps I should). I don't even know if they have forums, though I am sure that some of them do.
Again, there are people that believe in other gods (taking the place of your "alien overlords") and I do not spend very much time talking about the "gods" that don't exist. I will discuss them if they come up, but I don't actively search for this discussion.
I don't use this argument (I wouldn't say that I have never used it, but I do not use it as a practice), but if it gets a person to sincerely take a look at scriptures then I'm all for it. However, I don't believe it should be a lifelong "wager". I don't believe that God wants this kind of "investment" from us - it doesn't sound like faith to me.
I don't have much to say about this comment, except that, as you have pointed out, there's no common atheist opinion beyond the fact that all of you don't believe in God (or gods). So, it would seem that there would not be any common conceptions to have common misconceptions about.
While I cannot approach this from an atheist point of view (sincerely, anyway), I must say that it makes a lot more sense to be passionate about God than "not god". Again, I'm not passionate about convincing people that there are not aliens - but I will discuss the issue if it is brought up (and not on a alien enthusiast website - because I won't be on one).
For me, this is the best, if not only, point that you made. If a belief system is having a negative (or unwanted) effect on my life, family, and/or friends then I would be compelled to become active. And, honestly, I see how you could have made that argument in our country's past - perhaps you're just trying to keep it at bay. But in modern America there is little to no support for the Christian. We are not allowed to mention God in government buildings. Christian businesses are required to provide coverage for abortions (actually, I know that a lawsuit was pending, but I have not heard what the outcome was, if they've reached one). Ministers are being required to perform marriages for homosexuals.
There are also other religions that profess a god other than God, and I don't spend hours on those websites (perhaps I should). I don't even know if they have forums, though I am sure that some of them do.
Again, there are people that believe in other gods (taking the place of your "alien overlords") and I do not spend very much time talking about the "gods" that don't exist. I will discuss them if they come up, but I don't actively search for this discussion.
I don't use this argument (I wouldn't say that I have never used it, but I do not use it as a practice), but if it gets a person to sincerely take a look at scriptures then I'm all for it. However, I don't believe it should be a lifelong "wager". I don't believe that God wants this kind of "investment" from us - it doesn't sound like faith to me.
I don't have much to say about this comment, except that, as you have pointed out, there's no common atheist opinion beyond the fact that all of you don't believe in God (or gods). So, it would seem that there would not be any common conceptions to have common misconceptions about
.
"Me being a pragmatist, I recognize that at a given time, yes, I could decide to go left instead of right without any factor changing."
Thanks for the reply!
So, seriously? Does a light bulb decide if it's going to turn on or off? Or is that determined by other factors... how is your brain different (aside from being a lot more complex)?
Thanks for the reply!
So, seriously? Does a light bulb decide if it's going to turn on or off? Or is that determined by other factors... how is your brain different (aside from being a lot more complex)?
While you may have a good point, and you have every right to your way of thinking. You still are on a Christian forum, with predominantly Christians being on here. So you must understand that your opinion in a community like this will not stand a chance to help people understand that science is the reason we all exist. It's like 10 against 300,000.
I see that no one wanted to answer my lucy question, on how far the bones were found from each other
Also percepi I provided you with a link from a college of law, saying that it was to be used in the court room in the Scopes trial.
My question is, if it is going to be used in the court room, how could it not be accepted by the science community? Isn't a court of Law supposed to be truth only???
Also percepi I provided you with a link from a college of law, saying that it was to be used in the court room in the Scopes trial.
My question is, if it is going to be used in the court room, how could it not be accepted by the science community? Isn't a court of Law supposed to be truth only???
H
I see that no one wanted to answer my lucy question, on how far the bones were found from each other
Also percepi I provided you with a link from a college of law, saying that it was to be used in the court room in the Scopes trial.
My question is, if it is going to be used in the court room, how could it not be accepted by the science community? Isn't a court of Law supposed to be truth only???
Also percepi I provided you with a link from a college of law, saying that it was to be used in the court room in the Scopes trial.
My question is, if it is going to be used in the court room, how could it not be accepted by the science community? Isn't a court of Law supposed to be truth only???