A very critical difference between the old and new covenants

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#81
#81
AtonedFor said:
Quoted from John ...
Is the following passage saying ...
the Holy Spirit only remains in those who love Jesus and keep His commandments!

John 14:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“If you love Me, keep My commandments. [SUP]
16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever— [SUP]
17 [/SUP]the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him;
but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. [SUP]
18 [/SUP]I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me.
Because I live, you will live also. [SUP]
20 [/SUP]At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. [SUP]
21 [/SUP]He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.
And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father,
and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him,
“Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said to him,
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him,
and We will come to him and make Our home with him.”

It just seems to me that all the blessings in the OT and NT are CONDITIONAL.
Blessings and curses are everywhere for those who can read and comprehend.
Click to expand...
wrong passage.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Yes blessings and curses are there. But salvation is not conditional. It is based solely on the mercy and grace of God. If a non believer sins, he suffers the consequences of that sin, If a believer sins, he suffers the same PLUS gets chastened by God (a double wammy) but he does not lose salvation.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#83
#83
eternally-gratefull said:
wrong passage.

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Yes blessings and curses are there. But salvation is not conditional. It is based solely on the mercy and grace of God. If a non believer sins, he suffers the consequences of that sin, If a believer sins, he suffers the same PLUS gets chastened by God (a double wammy) but he does not lose salvation.
Click to expand...
Instead of saying "unconditional", I think "beyond conditional" works better, because there ARE conditions, but we failed them, so Christ satisfied the conditions Himself on our behalf. That's why His Sacrifice is the greatest of all miracles, because God "broke" His own rules just to redeem a remnant of His Creation. All miracles "break" the laws of nature, set by God, which is what makes them MIRACULOUS. The fact that God would "break" any of His rules for our sake, is proof of His Love for us. And it also assures us that it is not by our work that we are saved, but by His.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#84
#84
Sophia said:
Instead of saying "unconditional", I think "beyond conditional" works better, because there ARE conditions, but we failed them, so Christ satisfied the conditions Himself on our behalf. That's why His Sacrifice is the greatest of all miracles, because God "broke" His own rules just to redeem a remnant of His Creation. All miracles "break" the laws of nature, set by God, which is what makes them MIRACULOUS. The fact that God would "break" any of His rules for our sake, is proof of His Love for us. And it also assures us that it is not by our work that we are saved, but by His.
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what rule did God break? if he broke a rule he sinned. did he not?

other than that, I agree with everything, But not sure what you mean by the rule part.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#85
#85
eternally-gratefull said:
what rule did God break? if he broke a rule he sinned. did he not?

other than that, I agree with everything, But not sure what you mean by the rule part.
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His Justice. Sin is doing something that God wouldn't do. If God did it, then it's exactly what He would do. If we sin, then we deserve death, and His Justice requires such. By Christ dying in our place, He satisfied the payment, but not by the rules set in place, which are that each man is responsible for his own sin.

God set rules for the universe, right? When a miracle happens, it is God breaking those rules in order to display one of His characteristics, such as love or mercy or compassion or justice, or to fulfill a promise, such as protection of His People or provision or guidance. It is not sin for God to break the rules of the natural, as it is not sin for God to break the rules of the supernatural. He created them, and they are His to do with as He pleases.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#86
#86
Sophia said:
His Justice. Sin is doing something that God wouldn't do. If God did it, then it's exactly what He would do. If we sin, then we deserve death, and His Justice requires such. By Christ dying in our place, He satisfied the payment, but not by the rules set in place, which are that each man is responsible for his own sin.

God set rules for the universe, right? When a miracle happens, it is God breaking those rules in order to display one of His characteristics, such as love or mercy or compassion or justice, or to fulfill a promise, such as protection of His People or provision or guidance. It is not sin for God to break the rules of the natural, as it is not sin for God to break the rules of the supernatural. He created them, and they are His to do with as He pleases.
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Ok I see what your saying.

God did not actually break his rule. He made up the rule of redemption, It was seen in the sacrifices. Only he was the perfect sacrifice.

His love satisfied his justice by the act of redemption.
 
S

Sophia

Guest
#87
#87
eternally-gratefull said:
Ok I see what your saying.

God did not actually break his rule. He made up the rule of redemption, It was seen in the sacrifices. Only he was the perfect sacrifice.

His love satisfied his justice by the act of redemption.
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I do agree, which is why I felt the need to put "" around the word broke. Still, the act of substitution is an amazing and awe inspiring miracle.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#88
#88
Sophia said:
I do agree, which is why I felt the need to put "" around the word broke.
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now if the legalists would just see it, All would be well..lol
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#89
#89
eternally-gratefull said:
If a non believer sins, he suffers the consequences of that sin,
If a believer sins, he suffers the same (as the non-believer)
PLUS gets chastened by God (a double wammy)
but he does not lose salvation.
Click to expand...
Thou just continues to make a mockery of what the Scriptures teach.
Art thou for real?
You just said the non-believer who sins does not lose salvation.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#90
#90
Sophia said:
... it is not by our work that we are saved, but by His.
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Unfortunately, you have failed to see that throughout ALL of Scripture
God insists on man's free-will co-operation to receive blessings,
which include salvation.

God's free gift of GRACE + man's free-will co-operation of obedience = man's salvation

Gee, I think James might just agree with this!

Note: man cannot live in unrepented-of sin and be received into heaven
(where no sin may enter) ... i.e. OSAS is from the very pits of hell.

P.S. It appears you have been drastically falsely-taught by today's Laodicean churches!
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#91
#91
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

If a non believer sins, he suffers the consequences of that sin,
If a believer sins, he suffers the same (as the non-believer)
PLUS gets chastened by God (a double wammy)
but he does not lose salvation.


AtonedFor said:
Thou just continues to make a mockery of what the Scriptures teach.
Art thou for real?
You just said the non-believer who sins does not lose salvation.
Click to expand...


How can a believer get punished the same as a non-believer ?
Does E.G. not realize she just made a contradictory statement, for we can not get punished the same as them for they get sent to the lake of fire and believers do not. Believers lose rewards for how disobedient they were, unbelievers get a harsher punishment for how bad they were.
Plus the bible says that there is more than one way to deny the Lord, and it is not just saying you don't believe in Him. The scriptures say your actions and words show you don't believe in Him. If your works you do are contrary to what He said for us to do, then you deny Him. And if you tell others they don't have to do something that He said we are to do, then you are denying Him.
 
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AtonedFor

Guest
#92
#92
kennethcadwell said:
... we cannot get punished the same as them for they get sent to the lake of fire and believers do not.
Believers lose rewards for how disobedient they were, unbelievers get a harsher punishment for how bad they were.
Click to expand...
You write as though ALL "believers" remain faithful to Jesus and His gospel
until the end of their lives.

There are about 10 verses WARNING that believers MUST do this OR lose eternal life!
 
peacefulbeliever

peacefulbeliever

Senior Member
#93
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
63
#93
Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

If a non believer sins, he suffers the consequences of that sin,
If a believer sins, he suffers the same (as the non-believer)
PLUS gets chastened by God (a double wammy)
but he does not lose salvation.
Originally Posted by AtonedFor

Thou just continues to make a mockery of what the Scriptures teach.
Art thou for real?
You just said the non-believer who sins does not lose salvation.[/QUOTE]
kennethcadwell said:
How can a believer get punished the same as a non-believer ?
Does E.G. not realize she just made a contradictory statement, for we can not get punished the same as them for they get sent to the lake of fire and believers do not. Believers lose rewards for how disobedient they were, unbelievers get a harsher punishment for how bad they were.
Plus the bible says that there is more than one way to deny the Lord, and it is not just saying you don't believe in Him. The scriptures say your actions and words show you don't believe in Him. If your works you do are contrary to what He said for us to do, then you deny Him. And if you tell others they don't have to do something that He said we are to do, then you are denying Him.
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He did not say that a non-believer who sins does not lose salvation - a believer suffers the same as an unbeliever but does not lose salvation.

I could be wrong and forgive me if I am incorrect EG but the way I am reading it is this -
Matthew 5:43-45 You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Click to expand...
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#94
#94
AtonedFor said:
You write as though ALL "believers" remain faithful to Jesus and His gospel
until the end of their lives.

There are about 10 verses WARNING that believers MUST do this OR lose eternal life!
Click to expand...

Know I don't which has got me in some debates with E.G. and a few others.
This is why I have put E.G. on ignore, and have handed it over to you and others to debate with E.G. and the few others that think that way. You can only say the same thing over and over again, and post the same scriptures that show believers can fall away and not have salvation so many times. Then you have to step back and let another show them the same thing and hopefully then they will see.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#95
#95
A believer in the flesh suffers in the flesh just like a non-believer suffers...Life is in the Spirit and a believer only walks in life as they walk in the Spirit. We don't avoid sin and the flesh because we fear punishment, we walk in the Spirit because we know that's where we have life. The only biblical answer to sin is to walk in the Spirit, the flesh cannot deliver no matter how religious one becomes and attempts to justify oneself through dead religious works.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#96
#96
He did not say that a non-believer who sins does not lose salvation - a believer suffers the same as an unbeliever but does not lose salvation.

I could be wrong and forgive me if I am incorrect EG but the way I am reading it is this -
Matthew 5:43-45 You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you, love enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
[/QUOTE]


This scripture does not have anything to do with punishments.
It is talking about how we all live in the same day to day ups and downs in life. Rather we are righteous for God, or of the unrighteous you still have the same illnesses, finances, sins, and so on to deal with. We are to love our enemies and show them mercy, just as He has shown us mercy for our sins. Yet some are caught up in being judgmental, uncaring, unloving, and show no mercy at all. But to just put people to death for their sins still, showing they are no better then the Jews who instead of showing mercy of God continued with justice of men.
 
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Elin

Banned
#97
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#97
AtonedFor said:
Yes, IMO, Paul wrote to a particular group in the church at Ephesus
... he wrote ONLY to the saints who are "faithful".
But, no one believes me about this (i.e. I could be wrong).

He went on and on about the elect who are guaranteed eternal life, etc.
Makes no sense to me ... that he could actually be writing to everyone.
However, Paul was always seemed full of optimism with his constant edifying, exhorting, etc.
With his sly dire warnings carefully mixed in!
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Keeping in mind that the wheat and the tares look alike, so Paul's job was simply to teach to all who participated in the church.
God will separate them at the Judgment.

Just as, not knowing who the elect are, we are to preach the gospel to all men, but only the elect will believe it.
So we shouldn't get to bent out of shape when not everyone responds with faith.
 
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Elin

Banned
#98
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#98
secularhermit said:
Yes! But I will be alone, hurting no one, like the "little Prince" taking care of those baobabs you called "sins".

:p
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All sin is against God, not against humans.

Sin is transgression of God's law, therefore the sin is against him, the Lawgiver.

You will still be sinning against God on another planet.
 
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Elin

Banned
#99
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#99
Sophia said:
His Justice. Sin is doing something that God wouldn't do. If God did it, then it's exactly what He would do. If we sin, then we deserve death, and His Justice requires such. By Christ dying in our place, He satisfied the payment, but
not by the rules set in place, which are
that each man is responsible for his own sin.
Click to expand...
Well, not exactly.

The OT animal sacrifices bore the sin of the sinner and died in his place.
The sinner did not bear his own sin.
 
A

AtonedFor

Guest
#100
#100
.
Originally Posted by AtonedFor

You write as though ALL "believers" remain faithful to Jesus and His gospel
until the end of their lives.
There are about 10 verses WARNING that believers MUST do this OR lose eternal life!

Kenneth,
Did you miss that I was speaking to your questionable usage of the word "believers"?
Or, did you simply ignore it?
 
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