100 Percent Proof that there is No Rapture
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A good read and some good, but not new, points. However, there are a few errors. The biggest is even this author has misread the below although he/she correctly realizes there is no pre-trib rapture.
1 Thes 4:14 makes clear that it is God the Father returning, not Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Therefore, this passage and the verses that follow are post Millenium. The Trumpet identified here is NOT the 7th trumpet - it is the TRUMPET OF GOD which should be no surprise since it is the LORD HIMSELF (GOD) who is returning. Thus those who use this passage to attempt to prove a pre-Trib Rapture are sadly 1,000+ years off.
Christ reigns for 1,000 years with those martyred during the tribulation. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. So obviously God is bringing them back with Him when He returns for the Great White Throne judgment and to establish the new heaven here on earth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
The above is clearly stated. This isn't my theory - it is clearly stated Biblical fact!!
1 Thes 4:14 makes clear that it is God the Father returning, not Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Therefore, this passage and the verses that follow are post Millenium. The Trumpet identified here is NOT the 7th trumpet - it is the TRUMPET OF GOD which should be no surprise since it is the LORD HIMSELF (GOD) who is returning. Thus those who use this passage to attempt to prove a pre-Trib Rapture are sadly 1,000+ years off.
Christ reigns for 1,000 years with those martyred during the tribulation. The rest of the dead do not live again until the 1,000 years are over. So obviously God is bringing them back with Him when He returns for the Great White Throne judgment and to establish the new heaven here on earth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
The above is clearly stated. This isn't my theory - it is clearly stated Biblical fact!!
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1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.1Jn 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
B
1 Cor 15:50-54
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Just read the passage mentioned (notice v.50) and put it together with (1 Thes 4:13-17). Where else do you think the scriptures teaches us other then in the air, between heaven and earth? There is a descension and a resurrection that takes place and it meets together in the air. That constitutes a gathering and at that gathering people are changed in their bodies and rewards are given based upon those things done in their body when on the earth, both of the living and the dead that are raise up. This is what (1 Cor 3:13-15) is speaking to along with (1 Cor 15:40-49). I know of no place that Jesus spoke of this when on the earth nor did any of the OT prophets. This came to the apostle Paul by revelation from Jesus Christ and given to the church and body of Christ.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Just read the passage mentioned (notice v.50) and put it together with (1 Thes 4:13-17). Where else do you think the scriptures teaches us other then in the air, between heaven and earth? There is a descension and a resurrection that takes place and it meets together in the air. That constitutes a gathering and at that gathering people are changed in their bodies and rewards are given based upon those things done in their body when on the earth, both of the living and the dead that are raise up. This is what (1 Cor 3:13-15) is speaking to along with (1 Cor 15:40-49). I know of no place that Jesus spoke of this when on the earth nor did any of the OT prophets. This came to the apostle Paul by revelation from Jesus Christ and given to the church and body of Christ.
Huh??? Did you not pick up the subject of the passage? We are not the children of Christ, we are the Children of GOD!! Sorry, John uses only one exclaimation point after "CHILDREN OF GOD!" 
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!Therefore the world does not know us,because it did not know Him (GOD). [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He (GOD) is revealed, we shall be like Him (GOD), for we shall see Him (GOD) as He (GOD) is. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone who has this hope in Him (GOD) purifies himself, just as He (GOD) is pure.
The word "Jesus", "Christ", "Son of God" etc do not appear anywhere in the above. WE are the CHILDREN OF GOD.
People tend to ignore that fact that GOD THE FATHER is returning too. The old heaven is being destroyed. HE isn't staying up there, He too is returning. Yes, Jesus died so that we might have Salvation but let's not forget about the FATHER, our creator. He has a part to play in all this.
Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!Therefore the world does not know us,because it did not know Him (GOD). [SUP]2 [/SUP]Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He (GOD) is revealed, we shall be like Him (GOD), for we shall see Him (GOD) as He (GOD) is. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And everyone who has this hope in Him (GOD) purifies himself, just as He (GOD) is pure.
The word "Jesus", "Christ", "Son of God" etc do not appear anywhere in the above. WE are the CHILDREN OF GOD.
People tend to ignore that fact that GOD THE FATHER is returning too. The old heaven is being destroyed. HE isn't staying up there, He too is returning. Yes, Jesus died so that we might have Salvation but let's not forget about the FATHER, our creator. He has a part to play in all this.
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John makes clear that the general (and final resurrection) is on the LAST DAY, not some day prior to Satan's Great Tribulation and certainly not some day where there is still at least 1,000 years left. (John 6:40, 44, 54, John 11:24).
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
We also know that the judgment happens at this same last day. Christ returns after Satan's Tribulation and when He comes He reigns 1,000 years with those specifically killed during Satan's Tribulation (Rev 20:4-6). The rest of the dead do not live until the 1,000 years are over. THIS IS FACT stated clearly in SCRIPTURE. There is absolutely no speculation about this.
So Christ is on earth reigning and defeating His enemies. We are told in 1 Cor 15 that the LAST enemy Christ defeats is death. If Christ were to raise us all up upon HIS return (pre or post Trib) then Death would be the first enemy defeated. Study the passages where Christ returns and you will not find Him resurrecting anyone.
Therefore 1 Thes 4:13-18 is about God's return. This is the LAST DAY.
This is NOT some pre-Trib Rapture return of Christ. Christ isn't even identified as the one returning - GOD is.
We are told that if we believe Christ died and rose again to believe God is returning.
Who is returning? GOD.
...even so God...
Who is GOD bringing? Those who sleep in Jesus.
...God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Jesus isn't bringing them, GOD is. In the next verses the word "LORD" means GOD, not Jesus. Paul usually includes the name Jesus with the word LORD when Paul speaks about the Son, but Paul doesn't do that here.
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep...
Who is descending? God
For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven..
Whose trumpet is it? Again, God's. Why because it is God returning so naturally it's His trumpet. Christ isn't borrowing it.
...and with the trumpet of God...
Where is Christ at this moment? Why on earth reigning of course for 1,000 years.
And the dead in Christ will rise first...
Who raises them?? Christ does. Christ is already here and he tells us 4 times in the Book of John that He (Christ) will raise them.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air...
Why are we being caught up? Because it is going to be getting a little hot in the kitchen as Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord (GOD) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
How are we supposed to be living when this day comes?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Before the above happens is it not vital that we all be changed in the twinkling of an eye? We had better not be mortal at this point.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
Which trumpet is the above? the Last, not the 7th!!! The LAST Trumpet. Whose Trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET??? GOD'S TRUMPET.
Which day does this happen? LAST DAY.
When are we raised up?
John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Can there be an earlier LAST DAY?? How many days can be LAST?
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
We also know that the judgment happens at this same last day. Christ returns after Satan's Tribulation and when He comes He reigns 1,000 years with those specifically killed during Satan's Tribulation (Rev 20:4-6). The rest of the dead do not live until the 1,000 years are over. THIS IS FACT stated clearly in SCRIPTURE. There is absolutely no speculation about this.
So Christ is on earth reigning and defeating His enemies. We are told in 1 Cor 15 that the LAST enemy Christ defeats is death. If Christ were to raise us all up upon HIS return (pre or post Trib) then Death would be the first enemy defeated. Study the passages where Christ returns and you will not find Him resurrecting anyone.
Therefore 1 Thes 4:13-18 is about God's return. This is the LAST DAY.
This is NOT some pre-Trib Rapture return of Christ. Christ isn't even identified as the one returning - GOD is.
We are told that if we believe Christ died and rose again to believe God is returning.
Who is returning? GOD.
...even so God...
Who is GOD bringing? Those who sleep in Jesus.
...God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Jesus isn't bringing them, GOD is. In the next verses the word "LORD" means GOD, not Jesus. Paul usually includes the name Jesus with the word LORD when Paul speaks about the Son, but Paul doesn't do that here.
that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord (GOD) will by no means precede those who are asleep...
Who is descending? God
For the Lord Himself (GOD) will descend from heaven..
Whose trumpet is it? Again, God's. Why because it is God returning so naturally it's His trumpet. Christ isn't borrowing it.
...and with the trumpet of God...
Where is Christ at this moment? Why on earth reigning of course for 1,000 years.
And the dead in Christ will rise first...
Who raises them?? Christ does. Christ is already here and he tells us 4 times in the Book of John that He (Christ) will raise them.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord (GOD) in the air...
Why are we being caught up? Because it is going to be getting a little hot in the kitchen as Peter tells us in 2 Peter 3:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But the day of the Lord (GOD) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
How are we supposed to be living when this day comes?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
Before the above happens is it not vital that we all be changed in the twinkling of an eye? We had better not be mortal at this point.
[SUP]51 [/SUP]Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— [SUP]52 [/SUP]in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
Which trumpet is the above? the Last, not the 7th!!! The LAST Trumpet. Whose Trumpet is the LAST TRUMPET??? GOD'S TRUMPET.
Which day does this happen? LAST DAY.
When are we raised up?
John 6: [SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Can there be an earlier LAST DAY?? How many days can be LAST?
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Re: The Rapture Could Be Now!
Originally Posted by veryelect
I just can't understand why people can read straight out that an Apostle of CHRIST says something and then completely deny, discount, or not see what that Apostle says.
Lets look at the following verses and ascribe any old out of context meaning to them; Under you guys form of "interpretation" we can clearly see that the AC is destroyed by Jesus 2 seconds after the AC is revealed. .....says so by the apostle,who we must believe,right?
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Now,under our newly discovered "revelation" we know there is no rapture,
Thats easy to do,what you you guys do;
Edit out the pretrib verses and pooof! no gathering.....Pooof! postrib
I just can't understand why people can read straight out that an Apostle of CHRIST says something and then completely deny, discount, or not see what that Apostle says.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
Now,under our newly discovered "revelation" we know there is no rapture,
Thats easy to do,what you you guys do;
Edit out the pretrib verses and pooof! no gathering.....Pooof! postrib
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P
Where does anything say those who are protected from wrath are taken off of the earth. God hasn't done this in the past, why would you think He would do it this time?
No postrib rapture or resurrection. Not at all possible.
Think of Noah's inlaws and relatives....all died
His son's inlaws...............................all died
No postrib nothing w/ Noah.....nothing,no rapture,no heavenly kingdom
The analogy w/ noah is pretrib
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The catholics wiped out entire christian cultures and their writings leaving the "church history showcasers" with catholic doctrine.
No wonder the catholics also lie about Mcdonald,1830's etc. and would of course label pretrib as heresy.
Using unreliable extrabiblical resources is the low road to biblical truth.
No wonder the catholics also lie about Mcdonald,1830's etc. and would of course label pretrib as heresy.
Using unreliable extrabiblical resources is the low road to biblical truth.
P
Think "consequential behavior"
Noah's departure from the earth is the one Jesus used.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth..............4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Noah was taken high above the earth (caught up/risen) while the earth was in tribulation...then returned back to earth postrib.
Gone during wrath,returned after wrath.
You guys have him what? leaving after wrath????? HMMMMM......
Noah's departure from the earth is the one Jesus used.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth..............4 And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Noah was taken high above the earth (caught up/risen) while the earth was in tribulation...then returned back to earth postrib.
Gone during wrath,returned after wrath.
You guys have him what? leaving after wrath????? HMMMMM......
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E
Re: The Rapture Could Be Now!
1. It is Gods tribulation, not satans.
2. God meets us in the air, he does not come.. so it is not a coming. Thus one does not have to show you a coming BEFORE great tribulation.
There are no pre-trib verses!! Show me ONE verse that locates the return of Christ before Satan's Great Tribulation. I dare you. I double dare you.
2. God meets us in the air, he does not come.. so it is not a coming. Thus one does not have to show you a coming BEFORE great tribulation.
P
Re: The Rapture Could Be Now!
I have never heard or read anywhere the specific phrase "the children are picked up by the school bus "before" school starts".
Therefore we must conclude inspite of the obvious that either there is no bus or that they are gathered after school.
Remove the pretrib verses (as I have said) and pooof! postrib magically appears
You have zero postrib verses. None.
There are no pre-trib verses!! Show me ONE verse that locates the return of Christ before Satan's Great Tribulation. I dare you. I double dare you.
Therefore we must conclude inspite of the obvious that either there is no bus or that they are gathered after school.
Remove the pretrib verses (as I have said) and pooof! postrib magically appears
You have zero postrib verses. None.
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