When does the rapture occur?

[PlainWord]

So -- is this the last trumpet ( Matthew 24:31 ) -- or, is the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 not really the last trumpet?

( After all -- if you believe the trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52 is pre-trib -- and you believe the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 is post-trib -- why is there a trumpet after the last trumpet? )

Great call on this Gary. I hadn't even thought of this before. Of course, there can only be one LAST. For me personally, I believe the LAST trumpet equates with the Trumpet of God in 1 Thes 4 and has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet or trumpet of Mat 24:31.

 

[Straightshot]

My comment


There is the last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia .... the first is here [Revelation 1:10]

The last and 7th judgment trumpet of Revelation's unfolding

And the "gathering" trumpet sounding just after the days of the tribulation

All three are different and sound at different times

The gathering trumpet is not a resurrection of anyone, but for gathering the believing mortal survivors of Israel who will live through the tribulation period ... these will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]

The last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia will occur just before the tribulation period begins [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

 

[john832]

Something that I have noticed about the rapture idea is that those who are not quite good enough don't make the cut. Salvation by works?

 

[Straightshot]

the Lord does not mean "quite good enough" when He says you must be "ready"

One is either saved ..... or they are not

"Ready" means saved in this case

Many of the professing "church" may think they are saved for what ever reasons, but are not .... just because a person is "churched" [a member of some religious organization] does not guarantee salvation

This can only be a guarantee because a person has a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ

Thus His warning [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

 

[PlainWord]

My comment


There is the last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia .... the first is here [Revelation 1:10]

The last and 7th judgment trumpet of Revelation's unfolding

And the "gathering" trumpet sounding just after the days of the tribulation

All three are different and sound at different times

The gathering trumpet is not a resurrection of anyone, but for gathering the believing mortal survivors of Israel who will live through the tribulation period ... these will enter and populate the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth [Isaiah 11; 27:12-13; Matthew 24:29-31]

The last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia will occur just before the tribulation period begins [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

The last trumpet call for the Lord's true ecclesia will occur just before the tribulation period begins [Revelation 3:10; 18:4]

Please point out where you see the word "trumpet" used in the verses you cite. What you are doing is adding words to the Bible that are not there. You are making assumptions and drawing conclusions.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.


The above passages are unrelated. Rev 3:10 deals with the Church of Philadelphia located within modern day Turkey, past Asia Minor. This church is located in the heart of the Beast empire. But they will be protected (not raptured) from the persecution which is coming.

Rev 18:4 deals with God's People dwelling in and around Saudi Arabia. MECCA located here, is the seat of the World's False religion - ISLAM. MECCA is modern Babylon. This city and many surrounding ones will be destroyed. Neither deal with any rapture.

 

[PlainWord]

"Please explain the above if there is a pre-trib rapture. Why does the Son of Man not really find faith on the earth when He returns?"


I should let you go PW ..... but the answer to your question is a simple one

When the Lord immortalizes His Ecclesia ..... there will not be much "faith" upon the earth .... look around

Not "none", but scant

.... one of the very reasons why His is going to change the game [Romans 11:25]

At a time that you do not know .... might be before this day is over

I know that you think your riddle is a clever one

One needs to be ready .... if you an get it?

On the other hand

If you find yourself in the tribulation, where you must want to go .... you will know without a doubt in your mind where you are .... and what you have missed out on

And you will be able to count the days to the Lord's appearing on the earth for all to see .... including you, if you make it through .... if you do you will know the dating of His appearing

But you will have to repent [Revelation 3:15-19]

However, He is coming at a time that you cannot know .... to "snatch" you away

..... but it appears to me that you would rather pass

This False Pre-Trib Rapture event (which, by the way, none of the key tenants are taught and cannot be found anywhere in the Bible) is not based on one's belief in it. Salvation has nothing to do with one's end times views yet you seem to think it does. You seem to think one must believe as you to be raptured. Do you have a verse for this? Of course not. You make things up as you go to suit your imagination. Instead of taking the clear meaning of verses you twist them taking most improbable meanings because you have to or your doctrine collapses.

Christ doesn't think He will find much faith left when He returns because He won't. This statement from Luke (in your mind is Post Trib - after the Rapture) because you see wrath there. You are correct, but the statement makes no sense if Christ had come back 7 years or so earlier and took all with faith off the earth. However, this statement makes perfect sense if there is one return of Christ after the Tribulation. If the Tribulation is Satan's slaughtering and deception of believers (as I believe) and there is a huge apostasy (as Paul teaches) with many more killed or converted, than Christ statement makes perfect sense.

There is a reason both Paul and John repeatedly tell us to have PATIENCE and FAITH. Christ Himself tells us this too. It is because we are not to go out after the first mega powerful super being who comes claiming to be Christ and acting as Christ. We are to wait, have patience and keep our faith. Because the first such being who comes will be Satan. Satan CANNOT deceive people if the real Christ had come first. That's just common sense. What's Satan going to do tell everyone, "Hey I'm back. Now that I've taken all my believers to heaven here I am now worship me"? Wouldn't those on earth following a so-called removal of the church wonder where are all the saints on white horses that are supposed to accompany Christ? Shouldn't Christ be killing the bad guys not standing with them?

Revelation 14:12

Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

This is why we are told to wait, to have patience and faith. To persevere.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Because you have kept My command to persevere...

We are told to NOT GO OUT when the False One comes.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Christ makes clear His ELECT are here on earth and...

[SUP]26 [/SUP]“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.

DO NOT BELIEVE IT. DO NOT GO OUT!!! Why would Christ warn His Believers on earth about this deception to come if He already had taken them???? Satan isn't coming to deceive some so-call Tribulation Era New Believers (Another concept which is not found anywhere) He comes to deceive actual believers. Paul teaches that our gathering to Him comes after the Man of Sin appears, just as Christ does.

Look Straightshot, I know you will never see the error of your thinking. Believe me, for years I once thought as you. It took me many years of study and prayer to see that the Rapture Doctrine is wrong and to understand how it came to being and who was behind it. The delusion is so strong (Paul tells us) that nothing I say can break it for you. You need to really put away your pride and take the matter to the Lord in sincere prayer and ask Him to open your eyes to the truth.

If God wanted us to believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture He would have told us about it plainly. A verse such as this would be found.

"Before the Tribulation I will return to gather my church to take them to heaven." A verse like that would be clear but none is found.

 

[PlainWord]

the Lord does not mean "quite good enough" when He says you must be "ready"

One is either saved ..... or they are not

"Ready" means saved in this case

Many of the professing "church" may think they are saved for what ever reasons, but are not .... just because a person is "churched" [a member of some religious organization] does not guarantee salvation

This can only be a guarantee because a person has a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ

Thus His warning [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

It is all about FAITH and BELIEF in JESUS and that HE is the Son of God and has died for our sins. The only unpardonable sin is to deny and reject Christ.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

If you look back in the OT you see the same message.

Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

You see, there will only be a remnant left after Satan's Great Tribulation. Satan will deceive and kill hundreds of millions. God allows it. God is magnified any time man cannot claim credit for amazing things that God does. Therefore just like with Gideon, God will beat Satan with a tiny band of faithful and not with a haughty church that put themselves above His Chosen people.

 

[Straightshot]

I do not post on this forum anymore because of the way in which it is moderated, but a member of my staff monitors this forum for research and study of current Christian social media venues

This particular response of yours was noted to my attention along with a few other topics and my related contributions

Here is what I am going to tell you

Your position is bogus and not true, and you are going to find this out in due time

Stay right where your are with your ideas on the topic of this thread .... you cannot prove your position against the scriptures on this subject and so you might as well find something else to do based upon your level of understanding .... however, I doubt very much that you will change your course

Quite frankly, I do not care what you think .... it really does not matter

 

[popeye]

Something that I have noticed about the rapture idea is that those who are not quite good enough don't make the cut. Salvation by works?

Goes to "rewards",not salvation.
The 5 foolish were christians,but left behind.

 

[popeye]

the Lord does not mean "quite good enough" when He says you must be "ready"

One is either saved ..... or they are not

"Ready" means saved in this case

Many of the professing "church" may think they are saved for what ever reasons, but are not .... just because a person is "churched" [a member of some religious organization] does not guarantee salvation

This can only be a guarantee because a person has a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ

Thus His warning [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

This is not biblical
Many levels of believers
Carnal would be one of many levels.(the prodigal was still family in his sin)
The 5 foolish virgins were believers.
Believers are left behind and martyred during the GT.

 

[AtonedFor]

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

Appreciate your research ... Thanks!
My opinion is that Jesus will "rapture" His elect at His second coming,
which is at the last trumpet, which is on the last day of this age,
which is just prior to the Millenium age of 1000 years.

 

[popeye]

Originally Posted by Elin"......So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in symbolic unfulfilled prophecy, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.......
Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time."

IOW,your conclusion is through leaving out the pretrib verses.

 

[popeye]

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, where there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).
(1) Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.
Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

UH,you just placed the rapture after the GWT judgement.,and after the lake of fire,and 1000 yrs after the 2nd coming.

 

[Chopper]

For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

It is all about FAITH and BELIEF in JESUS and that HE is the Son of God and has died for our sins. The only unpardonable sin is to deny and reject Christ.

Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

If you look back in the OT you see the same message.

Joel 2:32

And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

You see, there will only be a remnant left after Satan's Great Tribulation. Satan will deceive and kill hundreds of millions. God allows it. God is magnified any time man cannot claim credit for amazing things that God does. Therefore just like with Gideon, God will beat Satan with a tiny band of faithful and not with a haughty church that put themselves above His Chosen people.

Interesting you point this out with your focus calling on the name, and speaking of the "False Pre-Trib Rapture event" saying "Do not go out".

It is true that when the prophets speak, they also refer to the Torah as you have done. In like manner, so shall I.

Yahoshua (Joshua) 23:6-8

And you shall be very strong to guard and do all that is written in the Book of the Torah of Mosheh, so as not to turn aside from it right or left, so as not to go in among these nations, these who remain among you. And make no mention of the name of their mighty ones, nor swear by, nor serve them nor bow down to them. "But cling to YHWH your Elohim as you have done to this day.

 

[Elin]

"......So following the principle of examining what is clear and certain in the Word of God, apart from what is not certain in unfulfilled prophetic riddles, this is what I find regarding the time of the rapture.......

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time."

IOW,your conclusion is through leaving out the pretrib verses.

Actually, it is leaving out the private uncertain interpretation of prophetic riddles.

 

[Elin]

In Ac 3:21, Peter says that Jesus must "remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything" (Ro 8:19-23), which is the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness he tells us about in 2Pe 3:10-13, at the end of time, for there is no death (Rev 21:1-4).

Since Jesus must remain in heaven, there can be no appearing prior to his coming to restore all things at the end of time, which therefore specifically locates the rapture at the end of time.

Conclusion: The clear and certain Word of God specifically locates the rapture after the tribulation, and with the restoration of all things at the end of time.

UH, you just placed the rapture after the GWT judgement.,and after the lake of fire,and 1000 yrs after the 2nd coming.

Peter placed it there.

But what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

in Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41).
However, regarding any actual instruction,
we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until
the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8),
which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.

So the only writer who instructs us regarding the rapture
does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but
specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time.

 

[RickyZ]

This is not biblical
Many levels of believers
Carnal would be one of many levels.(the prodigal was still family in his sin)
The 5 foolish virgins were believers.
Believers are left behind and martyred during the GT.

Saved is saved. There's no levels of that.

The foolish virgins were not left behind, but were judged and received punishment/reward for their works (or lack thereof).

Rather than get long-winded here, try this http://christianchat.com/blogs/rickyz/249-5-how-will-we-judged.html

 

[PlainWord]

Peter placed it there.

But what Paul teaches is most significant because he is the only NT writer who informs us of the rapture, although

in Lk 17:29-37, Jesus makes reference to it in the context of judgment (Mt 24:37-41).
However, regarding any actual instruction,
we are instructed about the rapture only by Paul.

In 1Th 2:1-8, Paul teaches there will be no rapture (v.1) until
the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed (v.3).
At that coming of Jesus and rapture (v.1), Jesus will destroy the man of lawlessness (v.8),
which is the end of time, as he said previously in 1Th 1:6-10.

So the only writer who instructs us regarding the rapture
does not locate the rapture prior to Jesus coming to judge the world, but
specifically locates it at Jesus' coming to judge the world at the end of time.

As always Elin, great insight. The "rapture" of course happens at the last day, the same day as the general resurrection. For those who are still alive and remaining after all the chaos, after the tribulation and millennium etc, then God returns and "raptures" or translates the living as Christ resurrects the dead in Him.

 

[john832]

the Lord does not mean "quite good enough" when He says you must be "ready"

One is either saved ..... or they are not

"Ready" means saved in this case

Many of the professing "church" may think they are saved for what ever reasons, but are not .... just because a person is "churched" [a member of some religious organization] does not guarantee salvation

This can only be a guarantee because a person has a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ

Thus His warning [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:15-19]

Uh, how about enlightening us then on the selection criteria.

 

[RickyZ]

Rapture is a man made term to describe (usually) being caught up to meet the Lord. Remember the rich man who had stored up for his future (Luke 12:20)? God said his life would be demanded that very night. Point being, that heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment is your rapture baby. And it could come right now. Be ready!