If Everything is Perfect In Heaven, Why Does God Work So Hard On Our Character?

[seoulsearch]

Hey everyone,

The subtitle of this thread could also be: Are There Arguments In Heaven?

I have a real-life "thorn in my side" that I have been wrestling with and praying over for many years. Today while I was praying at work, I truly believe God clearly said, "No," and of course, I wasn't happy about that at all.

My first instinct is usually to rebel: I told God, "Please tell me what I can and can't pray from now on, because I don't want to waste the time, energy, and tears like this ever again." But I believe God was saying that He wanted to use this to work on my character, and allow Him to work in a way I didn't expect. Sigh. Ok, God, your will be done. But I have always wondered, WHY does God work so hard on our character in the first place?

My conservative childhood church always told us that once we got to heaven, God made it so that we couldn't sin anymore. Great!!! But let me ask you this--what happens when people disagree in heaven?

Let's say there's a town hall in heaven that's being built, and the question comes up of what color it should be. "Paint it pink!" one group says cheerily. But no. Group #2 wants to paint it blue. Group #3 can't decide and wants to use several colors. And so on... Do you think there will be an argument? I would bet yes!

Here on earth, all other sorts of issues would come into play, such as, Which Group Is Donating More Money? Spiritual or not, all Christian organizations need money to function, and if the people who rely on them to feed their families want a job, donations are a huge consideration for most. But in heaven, money issues won't matter.

So what happens now when several people disagree? As a kid, I figured everyone would just cheerily yell out, "Pink it is! YAY pink!!! We love you, Lord!!!" because after all, it's HEAVEN. Perfect harmony, right? But somehow I don't think heaven is going to be One Long Eternal Episode of the Stepford Wives. God gave us personalities and free will for a reason, so I think people are still going to have very strong opinions, if not stronger, in the next life. I just think that now we will be able to solve our disagreements without sinning (after all, the Bible says you can be angry without sinning): no backbiting, no fist fights, no name-calling, no power trips.

Otherwise, why would God constantly be putting us "through the fire" in order to purify our character? If we are automatically transformed into a perfect, always-agreeable person the minute we step through heaven's gates, why would He even bother?

I would appreciate thoughts, passages, and experiences, please. And the reason I am posting this in Singles is: 1. I'm afraid of the Bible Forum (one of my character flaws that needs more work, obviously, is fear) and 2. As singles, we are going through a very unique character-shaping process just by being single.

Why do YOU feel that God works so hard on YOUR character?

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

First:

1. I'm afraid of the Bible Forum

Ha! I don't blame you.

Second:

The subtitle of this thread could also be: Are There Arguments In Heaven?

That's an interesting thing to pose. Given the fall of you know who, along with 1/3 of the angels, it raises the question of the overall dynamic in Heaven. I've no answers on that one.

Lastly:

Why do YOU feel that God works so hard on YOUR character?

Short answer: for His glory, first and foremost, and then for my benefit.

 

[Jakob]

I dont think there's any arguments in heaven.
About the color thing, I dont believe that colors matters really, I dont think anyone cares up there.
Or maybe in heaven there's some colors we have never seen down here on earth
I dont think we can really imagine what heaven is like, to be there.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

"why i or you or anyone "feels" that..... " is i think way off on the wrong foot.
feelings are notoriously bad guides. the hearts is deceitful above all things(it is written, and cannot be changed).

as it is written, not only is there no argument/disagreement in heaven ('then' - to be),
but now, on earth, what is seen
among the born again, set apart ekklesia immersed in Christ Jesus (Yahushua Hamashiach) is to be as it will be---
and, meantime, the awful, painful suffering required is necessary as written in HEBREWS 13 chapters
to wean the ekklesia (sons of Elohim) away from thinking our own way to thinking HIS WAY, period.

THAT shows clearly how far the world is gone wrong , including almost all of the groups there-in. simple. allare wrong.(almost all).

as able, look up UNION with MESSIAH. biblegateway dot com is fairly good, and probably a lot of others, to see how often
(OFTEN) !! it is written that ekklesia ARE (NOW today) IN UNION in YAHWEH the Creator in Yahushua Messiah.
yet, not often seen, taught, or realized in any group today.....

so the fault lies in men, not in God(Yhvh). Yhvh made things perfect, simple and true. men /mankind MESSED ALL UP.

in Yahushua Yhvh has provided a clear and simple and POWERFUL rememdy for man's trouble/death/sin/wrongness.

all in line with His Word. but not hardly any groups go along with , agree with, or obey HIM.

i.e. our character, submitted all in all to Yhvh, is perfected through suffering, and not without it, same as Jesus. (it is written). (find where it says He learned obedience through the things suffered). VERY IMPORTANT.

...
The subtitle of this thread could also be: Are There Arguments In Heaven?
....... WHY does God work so hard on our character in the first place?

My conservative childhood church always told us that once we got to heaven, God made it so that we couldn't sin anymore. Great!!! But let me ask you this--what happens when people disagree in heaven?
.......
Why do YOU feel that God works so hard on YOUR character?

 

[1still_waters]

Otherwise, why would God constantly be putting us "through the fire" in order to purify our character? If we are automatically transformed into a perfect, always-agreeable person the minute we step through heaven's gates, why would He even bother?

I think the above is the meat of your post, and the thrust of your question.

This side of eternity the change is a slow grind.
A constant series of refinements toward the ultimate goal.

But once everything is restored the change and refinement happens quick, insta-change to perfection.

So why would he even bother refining our character now, if when he comes back the perfecting becomes instant?

The ultimate goal is conformity to Christ, which involves character change.
The speed to that goal changes based on the framework we're in.

The reason he refines our character now, is because that's part of God's ultimate goal.
Yes it's slower, and yes it's more of a grind, but given the framework we're in now, that's how he works.
The framework we're in now is that we're still part of the creation that's in bondage to decay.
In that framework the refining isn't instant, because if it were, well then we'd be in the new heavens and earth already.

Romans 8

18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, [i]in hope21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

The ultimate goal
Romans 8

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son,

Also, if the refinement didn't start now, we might start to wonder if there was anything to the Gospel. He refines to prove the Gospel has power.

2 Cor 3

2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men;3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, [a]cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of [b]human hearts.

The refining shows God's work, and most of all his love and mercy.

Ephesians 2

4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved),6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The refinement is progressive, and that's a change others need to see.

Philippians 3

2 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on [h]so that I may lay hold of that [i]for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what liesbehind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are [j]perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep [k]living by that same standard to which we have attained.

Philippians 2

14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing; 15 so that you will [i]prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you [j]appear as [k]lights in the world,

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

oh, maybe don't imagine it. (in fact don't try; ) rather, subject all thought and dreams and imaginations and all in all to Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith)
and see now on earth what it is to be a subject of heaven now on earth. (i.e. "peace, joy, and righteousness) i.e.RARE on earth.

read Ephesians, Timothy, Thessalonians, 1John, 1Peter and Revelation (added: and ROMANS like above post important!conformed to HIM)

and see how much CLOSER THEN THEY WERE to what Yhvh's Word says to be to be in Christ Jesus a group or a body obedient to HIM.

it is absolutely necessary to read this in HIS WORD, because no group teaches it as far as i know...... (or practices it).
only a few scattered here and there (as it is written in Malachi),
talking about Him and abiding in Hiim.....

I dont think there's any arguments in heaven.
About the color thing, I dont believe that colors matters really, I dont think anyone cares up there.
Or maybe in heaven there's some colors we have never seen down here on earth
I dont think we can really imagine what heaven is like, to be there.

 

[seoulsearch]

^^^ Just to clarify. When I wrote, "Why do you feel God works so hard on your character?", I did NOT mean it in the sense that our opinions are above God's Word at all.

I am just curious--if it's true and there are NO disagreements in heaven... if we are all going to be that perfect... Why does He go through such painstaking lengths to transform our sinful hearts to begin with if BAM!!! they are perfected as soon as we enter heaven? It j gust seems like it would be a waste of time and resources? Many of us go to college for many years and spend thousands of dollars doing so. But if you never have an opportunity to put what you've learned into practice, what was the point?

I'm certainly not saying that God's work is pointless. I'm just asking for thoughts as to why this is so important to Him in each of our lives.

This is something I believe is partially speculation, as I'm not sure there are passages that explain this. But I could be wrong. Which is why I post my threads--to learn things from others that I don't know.

 

[seoulsearch]

Yes, Jeff, I do read the Bible on a regular basis, so I'm hopefully not just wandering around asking aimless questions.

I went to a Christian school, every vacation Bible and Sunday school available, and have read it on my own 6 times, each time a different version for a better understanding. My Dad is also an ordained minister so in our home, church and Bible teaching was mandatory.

I am no expert by any means. But yes, to answer your inquiry, I have some experience in reading the Bible and try to do so every day.

 

[1still_waters]

^^^ Just to clarify. When I wrote, "Why do you feel God works so hard on your character?", I did NOT mean it in the sense that our opinions are above God's Word at all.

I am just curious--if it's true and there are NO disagreements in heaven... if we are all going to be that perfect... Why does He go through such painstaking lengths to transform our sinful hearts to begin with if BAM!!! they are perfected as soon as we enter heaven? It j gust seems like it would be a waste of time and resources? Many of us go to college for many years and spend thousands of dollars doing so. But if you never have an opportunity to put what you've learned into practice, what was the point?

I'm certainly not saying that God's work is pointless. I'm just asking for thoughts as to why this is so important to Him in each of our lives.

This is something I believe is partially speculation, as I'm not sure there are passages that explain this. But I could be wrong. Which is why I post my threads--to learn things from others that I don't know.

I gave a longer answer above, but in short, he starts now because His ultimate goal is to conform us to Christ. That goal doesn't start in eternity, it starts now. Why? Because it's a witness of the power of the Gospel, and people need to see his power, so they can see His grace, mercy, love, righteousness etc. If he waited until eternity, then we'd still be in bondage to sin, and wouldn't have any fruits of the Spirit at all.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

he wants us to be accepted when he returns. he told all his disciples "you must be complete/perfect/ because "Your Father in heaven" is Perfect. (even in the Old Testament He told His people "you must all be holy(set apart) because Yhvh is holy(set apart)"
he did not say "go ahead and sin as you can't help it, Yhvh will look the other way ..... " NO! "shall sin abound so that grace can abound all the more? NO!" .... forsake sin, don't coddle it. give it up. not like the disciples who WALKED AWAY FROM JESUS because what He said was too hard to bear, no..... STAY (ABIDE) with JESUS... !

 

[kennethcadwell]

Things are perfect in heaven, the reason He works on our character down here is simple to explain.
He wants us to act down here as we will act in heaven. In heaven we will be loving, merciful, and obedient and therefore we should also be that way down here.

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

there's a lot to learn that's not learned in church nor in school, so how? (can we be saved, let alone also perfect now today) ? >> (the disciples were SHOCKED)

26 Yahushua looked hard at them and said, "No chance at all if you think you can pull it off yourself. Every chance in the world if you trust Yhvh to do it."

the apostles condition ? >>
". Much of the time we don’t have enough to eat, we wear patched and threadbare clothes, we get doors slammed in our faces, and we pick up odd jobs anywhere we can to eke out a living. When they call us names, we say, “God bless you.” When they spread rumors about us, we put in a good word for them. We’re treated like garbage, potato peelings from the culture’s kitchen. And it’s not getting any better."

helpful/required? >
Mutual Refreshing - Watchman Nee (CLC)

little extra for followup (needed)>>
Mutual Refreshing - Watchman Nee (CLC)

Hebrews 13:21 KJV;NKJV;NIV;NASB;AMP - Make you perfect in ...
Hebrews 13:21 King James Version (KJV) 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus ...

1 Peter 5:10-14 KJV - But the God of all grace, who hath ...
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen ...

 

[Lynx]

This is the kind of topic that would be better discussed in real time. But I will try to leave my thoughts and be patient waiting for a response. Or maybe no response at all, but here goes anyway.

In the beginning, in the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were in something pretty much like heaven. No work, no trouble, no disease, and they walked and talked with God every day.

Then sin ruined what God had made.

So God is making a new heaven and a new earth. Basically we will be restored to what was, and what should have always been, had sin not ruined it. But this time sin will not ruin it. That is precisely why only Christians will be there, so sin won't spoil things this time around.

As to what will happen when arguments arise - the reason for arguments will not arise. When the Bible says "time will be no more" it really means time won't be a factor. There will be no before and after, no past and future. There will just be timeless now. (Protip: That's how God tells His prophets what is coming in the future, because God invented time and God is not subject to something He made.)

 

[ELECT]

Hey everyone,

The subtitle of this thread could also be: Are There Arguments In Heaven?

I have a real-life "thorn in my side" that I have been wrestling with and praying over for many years. Today while I was praying at work, I truly believe God clearly said, "No," and of course, I wasn't happy about that at all.

My first instinct is usually to rebel: I told God, "Please tell me what I can and can't pray from now on, because I don't want to waste the time, energy, and tears like this ever again." But I believe God was saying that He wanted to use this to work on my character, and allow Him to work in a way I didn't expect. Sigh. Ok, God, your will be done. But I have always wondered, WHY does God work so hard on our character in the first place?

My conservative childhood church always told us that once we got to heaven, God made it so that we couldn't sin anymore. Great!!! But let me ask you this--what happens when people disagree in heaven?

Let's say there's a town hall in heaven that's being built, and the question comes up of what color it should be. "Paint it pink!" one group says cheerily. But no. Group #2 wants to paint it blue. Group #3 can't decide and wants to use several colors. And so on... Do you think there will be an argument? I would bet yes!

Here on earth, all other sorts of issues would come into play, such as, Which Group Is Donating More Money? Spiritual or not, all Christian organizations need money to function, and if the people who rely on them to feed their families want a job, donations are a huge consideration for most. But in heaven, money issues won't matter.

So what happens now when several people disagree? As a kid, I figured everyone would just cheerily yell out, "Pink it is! YAY pink!!! We love you, Lord!!!" because after all, it's HEAVEN. Perfect harmony, right? But somehow I don't think heaven is going to be One Long Eternal Episode of the Stepford Wives. God gave us personalities and free will for a reason, so I think people are still going to have very strong opinions, if not stronger, in the next life. I just think that now we will be able to solve our disagreements without sinning (after all, the Bible says you can be angry without sinning): no backbiting, no fist fights, no name-calling, no power trips.

Otherwise, why would God constantly be putting us "through the fire" in order to purify our character? If we are automatically transformed into a perfect, always-agreeable person the minute we step through heaven's gates, why would He even bother?

I would appreciate thoughts, passages, and experiences, please. And the reason I am posting this in Singles is: 1. I'm afraid of the Bible Forum (one of my character flaws that needs more work, obviously, is fear) and 2. As singles, we are going through a very unique character-shaping process just by being single.

Why do YOU feel that God works so hard on YOUR character?

What does thy will be done in earth as in heaven mean ?

 

[seoulsearch]

What does thy will be done in earth as in heaven mean ?

I have to wonder then, why there is so much viciousness and personal attack in the Bible Forum.

I guess everyone believes they are doing God's will...

 

[psychomom]

for the reasons Stilly posted...an encouragement to us...a witness of the Gospel to the world...

but do you think God is also at work refining us so (maybe) we stop hurting other people and ourselves?
(NOT in a 'best life now' kinda way)
there certainly seems to be enough suffering in the world without me adding to it...

 

[seoulsearch]

I also have to wonder: in the Garden of Eden, if God had made Adam and Eve at the same time, or at least before Adam named the animals, would the two of them look at an animal and say, in perfect gleeful unison, "It's an 'elephant'"!!!

What if Adam wanted to call it "Long-Nose" and Eve wanted to call it "Tuskan-Raider"?

Just a few of the things I think about... The Bible says that God brought the animals to Adam "to see what he would name them." It doesn't say Adam automatically knew what GOD called each particular animal. (The Bible says God calls the stars by name... I would guess... our human names for stars... are much different than what God calls them.)

I could be wrong, but I believe this is one of the first glimpses we have of free will, and at the time, it was in a perfect setting. I believe free will means a choice, and if we have choices, I have to think there will be differences... Does our free will get taken away in heaven?

 

[psychomom]

Does our free will get taken away in heaven?

perhaps it's a case of being fully conformed...
our will is perfected, and in full agreement with God's.

 

[seoulsearch]

Here's something else to ponder: do you believe there is one universal language in heaven?

I have often wondered if we will automatically "know" how to speak everyone's language... or if we will have to learn... or if some will become translators just like we have on earth. After all, we have eternity... and if we DON'T go to heaven automatically knowing the thousands of languages that exist on earth, we have no time limit in order to learn them all.

So... I often wonder to myself. Does God teach us things here like patience, study, and learning... which all take character development and discipline... because we will need it to learn things like languages in heaven? (If there ARE languages in heaven... it means that yes, we'll all have different "names" as to what different things are. And as I said, I personally believe that if there are differences, there will also be strong differences in opinion. Though I realize in heaven they would all be resolved peacefully.)

 

[psychomom]

Here's something else to ponder: do you believe there is one universal language in heaven?

I have often wondered if we will automatically "know" how to speak everyone's language... or if we will have to learn... or if some will become translators just like we have on earth. After all, we have eternity... and if we DON'T go to heaven automatically knowing the thousands of languages that exist on earth, we have no time limit in order to learn them all.

So... I often wonder to myself. Does God teach us things here like patience, study, and learning... which all take character development and discipline... because we will need it to learn things like languages in heaven? (If there ARE languages in heaven... it means that yes, we'll all have different "names" as to what different things are. And as I said, I personally believe that if there are differences, there will also be strong differences in opinion. Though I realize in heaven they would all be resolved peacefully.)

lady, you are one deep thinker! hehe

(srsly, i never thought about most of this stuff!)