The Satanic Statue Being Made for Oklahoma's Statehouse Is Coming Along Nicely

[Hizikyah]

Also, take a look at Ezekiel. It's a good read and shows us just how far God allowed things to fall for people to see the error of their ways. It's a theme repeated again and again in the bible. The righteous men always spoke out against it, but you never see the hearts of wicked men turned by that. They're only turned when God turns them. And we can aid in that by battling this in Spirit and not by any constraints placed on us by man's law. If we all feel so strongly about it, why are we not going out and helping others find Jesus? Why are we contented in complaining over events like these? I think a few of us here may be suffering from "fat sheep syndrome". lol We've gotten so comfortable in our salvation, we forgot about our "honeymoon phase" with the Lord. We need a refreshed and renewed faith that helps us to bring others into the light. Not a "political stance", not a "protest", not "personal objection", but overwhelming love and compassion that shows WHY we believe what we do. Not condemnation, but redemption. You see my point? It's kind of a big deal in our faith. lol

The biggest problem many people (atheists) have is an inability to undersand why things are so bad, and this makes them deny. We have all heard people say, "if there is a God how could He let this happen?" But in reality, Yah does not want this, but has to allow people to go their way. If Yah did not let things run their course, the so called "mighty" men would have an excuse;, "If you gave us a little longer we could have done it without Yahweh." However in judgement, none will be able to rightfully use this excuse, as Yahweh will allow things to go to the point of near extinction, to show the world what happens when they reject His Instructions;

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

Malakyah 4:1-4,"For, behold, the day comes that will burn like an oven; and all the proud, yes, and all who do wickedly, will be stubble--the day that comes will burn them up, says Yahweh of hosts; and it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who reverence My Name, the light of righteousness will arise with healing in its wings; and you will go out, leaping like calves released from the stall. And you will tread down the wicked; for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I will do this, says Yahweh of hosts. Remember the Law of Mosheh My servant, which I commanded through him in Horeb for all Israyl, with the statutes and judgments."

 

[Cycel]

Here we go again.What point are people trying to make?Why to they fight so hard against someone they dont believe in?Why do they have to drive home a point? They are against Christianity,we got it.Its just funny to me that they fight so hard against someone they swear isnt there in the first place. smh

What is this statue?

 

[Human]

The biggest problem many people (atheists) have is an inability to undersand why things are so bad, and this makes them deny. We have all heard people say, "if there is a God how could He let this happen?" But in reality, Yah does not want this, but has to allow people to go their way. If Yah did not let things run their course, the so called "mighty" men would have an excuse;, "If you gave us a little longer we could have done it without Yahweh." However in judgement, none will be able to rightfully use this excuse, as Yahweh will allow things to go to the point of near extinction, to show the world what happens when they reject His Instructions;

Mattithyah 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

So esentially you think if the most powerful in the world were people of the book, the world wouldn't be as bad as it is? I disagree with that notion, firstly because many of the most powerful people on Earth are​ religious; The Pope, Bill Gates, The Sheikhs, the majority of Congress, the heads of state in just about every Catholic country, the list goes on, and secondly because a fair number of those people work in many ways not to create war, disparagement or hatred, but to give to a better and brighter future. Gates spends much of his time philanthopically, the Pope and the Vatican are the single biggest humanitarian institution on Earth. The Catholic Church in America alone gave away more in 2012 in charity money than the majority of African countries GDP combined. That's just the American Cathoic Church, not the Vatican.

Atheists, contrary to your opinions about them, make up less of the prison populace relative to their overall population in America than any other 'religious' group; Christians make up the most, relative to their general population. Atheists are about 27 times less likely than Christians to commit crimes in America which might lead to incarceration. Athiests divorce less than Christians do, and atheists run considerably more global humanitarian organizations than Christians do.

Rethink your assumptions, please.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

Atheists, contrary to your opinions about them, make up less of the prison populace relative to their overall population in America than any other 'religious' group; Christians make up the most, relative to their general population. Atheists are about 27 times less likely than Christians to commit crimes in America which might lead to incarceration. Athiests divorce less than Christians do, and atheists run considerably more global humanitarian organizations than Christians do.

Do you have sources for these facts? I'm interested in looking them over, if so.

 

[Hizikyah]

So esentially you think if the most powerful in the world were people of the book, the world wouldn't be as bad as it is? I disagree with that notion, firstly because many of the most powerful people on Earth are​ religious; The Pope, Bill Gates, The Sheikhs, the majority of Congress, the heads of state in just about every Catholic country, the list goes on, and secondly because a fair number of those people work in many ways not to create war, disparagement or hatred, but to give to a better and brighter future. Gates spends much of his time philanthopically, the Pope and the Vatican are the single biggest humanitarian institution on Earth. The Catholic Church in America alone gave away more in 2012 in charity money than the majority of African countries GDP combined. That's just the American Cathoic Church, not the Vatican.

Atheists, contrary to your opinions about them, make up less of the prison populace relative to their overall population in America than any other 'religious' group; Christians make up the most, relative to their general population. Atheists are about 27 times less likely than Christians to commit crimes in America which might lead to incarceration. Athiests divorce less than Christians do, and atheists run considerably more global humanitarian organizations than Christians do.

Rethink your assumptions, please.

I never said any of that?

I dont care about the Popes religion, or hindus religion.

Im talking about people seeing the state of the world and making judgements of why it is a certain way and the possibilities of what reality truly is when considering the current state of the world.

AND following Yahweh or people not following Yahweh. The Creator of the heavens and earth.

 

[Hizikyah]

PS following a worldly institution IS NOT FOLLOWING YAHWEH. It is impossible to do both at once.

 

[hannahbeth1124]

One teeeeny tiny thing here, as well. I think we need to remember that "atheist" and "Satanist" are not interchangeable. Just a side note.

 

[Hizikyah]

One teeeeny tiny thing here, as well. I think we need to remember that "atheist" and "Satanist" are not interchangeable. Just a side note.

I agree...

 

[hannahbeth1124]

What is this statue?

This is the most recent photo, it's yet to be cast in bronze, but they're hoping to do so and put it opposite the 10 commandments. Emphasis on Hope. It hasn't even been approved yet. there's still a lawsuit against the 10 Commandments monument to be resolved first.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

It hasn't even been approved yet. there's still a lawsuit against the 10 Commandments monument to be resolved first.

I recall something about that when reading about the man that urinated on the monument and then drove into it (ironic that it's not the first case of which something inscribed with the 10 commandments was broken out of frustration ─ I'm looking at you, Moses!).

Is that the case where the American Civil Liberties Union of Oklahoma argued that it (the monument) violates the Oklahoma Constitution and could be seen as a state endorsement of a religion? Or is there a different one?

 

[hannahbeth1124]

Here's what I know so far:

Here’s the First Look at the New Satanic Monument Being Built for Oklahoma’s Statehouse | VICE | United States

 

[Hizikyah]

Here's what I know so far:

Here’s the First Look at the New Satanic Monument Being Built for Oklahoma’s Statehouse | VICE | United States

Quote from that article:

"“Depending on our insurance policy,” Greaves said, “we may be able to cast two from the destruction of one, expediting our arrival to the next battleground.”"

"understanding that a judgment against the Ten Commandments will have ramifications for our monument as well, likely resulting in the removal of both.”"

It is much more than a simple statue to these people..

 

[hannahbeth1124]

Well obviously. But the question is, should we honestly concern ourselves when we've already been warned of this in the book of Revelations. We have bigger fish to fry. We need to be more concerned with winning souls for the kingdom in what little time we have. This isn't a victory for them. It's a sad display. lol

 

[Hizikyah]

Well obviously. But the question is, should we honestly concern ourselves when we've already been warned of this in the book of Revelations. We have bigger fish to fry. We need to be more concerned with winning souls for the kingdom in what little time we have. This isn't a victory for them. It's a sad display. lol

You are right, but I dont see them as separate:

Ephesians 5:10-11, "Proving what is acceptable to Yahweh. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead, expose them"

From the conversations I have had with random people over the past year, the acceptance of satanic doctrines is becoming commonplace, I met 2 people in the past month that practiced voodoo/wicca practices under a different "title" when I showed them that these were the exact same rituals in voodoo/wicca both times there was sincere self-reflection. I do not knot the outcome in there particular cases of course... and since people do not even know the origin of their "views" comes from, i see it as doubly important to expose the origins so the innocent/unlearned do not fall prey.

 

[Siberian_Khatru]

Well obviously. But the question is, should we honestly concern ourselves when we've already been warned of this in the book of Revelations. We have bigger fish to fry. We need to be more concerned with winning souls for the kingdom in what little time we have. This isn't a victory for them. It's a sad display. lol

1. I'm glad this thread is back on course.

2. I have to say that I'm impressed by you, Hannah! You are one of the most consistently zealous-for-God persons I've met on this forum, and you seem very bright.

3.

Regardless of what happens at the statehouse, the Temple is charging ahead with the monument. And if it doesn’t end up in Oklahoma City and the Ten Commandments are forced to be removed, the Satanists will try to find a home for the Baphomet in another deserving state. Texas, for instance, has had a monument of the Ten Commandments sitting on its capitol grounds for 40 years. As Greaves put it, “There are no shortage of public locations across the US where religious monuments await a contrasting voice.”

Deserving state? I'm skeptical of their motive. It seems like this is purely a statement; an expression of opposition, not a proclamation of their faith or of reverence for what they believe/worship.

 

[Human]

Do you have sources for these facts? I'm interested in looking them over, if so.

Yes. America's population is 316million. Atheists, nonreligionists and agnostics make up almost 20% of the American population. This means -- (316mil/100)x20 -- that 63,200,000 Americans are either athiest, nonreligious or agnostic. According to several independent sources, among them Prof. Root of the University of Pittsburgh (USA), Steiner and Swancarra (Canada, 'A New Criminology'), Schlapp and Smith (Sing Sing), Robert Meier for the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, and various other prison reports, including Federal State Prison reports, atheists around the world generally account for less than 1% of the prison population. In America that figure isat most 0.2%, while Christians in America account for close to 75% of the prison population.

Consider that the Christian population of America is 73%, while their make-up of the prison populace is (from the above reports) almost 75%.

If 0.2% of the prison population are irreligious, while 20% of the general populace are irreligious, then the irreligious make up a percentage of the prison population 100 times less their general population, while Christians, being 73% of the general population and 75% of the prison population, make up slightly more a percentage of the prison population than their general population. In layman's terms, Christians are slightly more than 100 times more likely to be in jail than atheists (that was a surprise, because I honestly thought it was less than that). The maths to reach that conclusion are as follows:

If the irreligious of America make up 0.2% of the prison population, yet are 20% of the general population, then that ratio is 1:100. If Christians make up 73% of the general population, and 75% of the general population, that ratio is slightly more incriminating for Christians than 1:1 (but for simplicity, I'll stick with 1:1). 1:1 against 1:100 is a difference of 100. It's actually closer to 103 times more likely to be in jail.

Now for divorce. This article contains information from a study that showed atheists divorce almost exactly the same amount as Catholics and Luterans, but not as much as other Christian denominations. Here is another study pointing out that conservate Protestants divorce nearly 20% more than atheists (albeit in Oklahoma). Brad Wilcox, director of the National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia, also showed in his analysis of the Barna study, which is a Christian institution, (article above) that across the bible-belt, Christians divorced much more often than atheists. The US Census Bureau also show that athiests divorce, in general, cosniderably less than Protestant Christians do.

Lastly, on global humanitarian organizations. The most charitable individuals (who run philantrhopic initiatives) in the world are as follows:

Bill Gates (irreligious, another surprise), Warren Buffet (atheist), George Soros (athiest). On Kiva (the giving site), the leading group for giving (to the tune of almost £300 million) is called ''Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists, and the Non-Religious''. In the 2012 Journal of Social Psychology and Personality Science, Willer and Saslow (University of California) found that atheists are considerably more motivated to compassionate charity than the religious, and that compassion, regardless of religious belief, was a far more potent motivator to giving than religion itself.

You might also want to note that higher intelligence has been found to correlate more with atheism than religion (in schools, on the streets, and through various studies).

You should also read the following studies:

Abraham Franzblau, "Religious Belief and Character Among Jewish Adolescents," Teachers College Contribution to Education, no. 634 (1934).
Murray Ross, Religious Beliefs in Youths, New York 1950.
Travis Hirschi & Rodney Stark, "Hellfire and Delinquency", Social Problems Vol 17 (1969), pp202-213.
R.E. Smith, G. Wheeler & E. Diener, "Faith Without Works: Jesus People, Resistance to Temptation and Altruism." Journal of Applied Social Psychology, Vol. 5 (1975)
David M. Wulff, Psychology of Religion: Classic and Contemporary Views, New York 1991 p219-220.

The sociologist Rodney Stark is a good source for the sociological implications of atheism compared to those of religion, and these books will help:

Martin, Atheism, Morality and Meaning
Shermer, The Science of Good and Evil
Knight, Honest to Man
McCabe, The Social Record of Christianity
Phelips, The Churches and Modern Thought
Haught, 2000 Years of Disbelief
McCabe, The Social Record of Christianity
Fryer, The Birth Controllers
Singer, Writings on an Ethical Life

Athiests, it seems, you've gotten all wrong.

 

[hannahbeth1124]

Wow what great resources. Thanks for these. However, thus far, and I may be corrected in further examination of these studies and, by extension, your interpretation(s) of their association with very diverse group you seem to be blanketing under the title "Christians".... But it seems as if these studies are a bit slanted. I don't believe any of them justifies a generalization of all christians, just as I don't believe all atheist can be put into one category. We are forgetting one very important factor here. Individuality. I am a Christian... And (just picking a name out of a hat here) Hizikyah is a christian. Do we both believe the same thing? Absolutely. Does that mean we both have exactly the same opinion on everything? Absolutely not. You (I'm guessing here?) are an atheist? And I'm sure you know at least one other atheist who you thoroughly disagree with on most things.

Not all of us have stereotypes about atheists... In fact, I think you'll find many of us, at one time or another in our lives WERE atheists. So, as long as we're avoiding the generalization and discrimination against atheists, let's play fair and do the same for Christians, assuming they're each capable of individual thoughts and emotions.

That said, let's revisit one of these studies. Have you any background in the scientific method? Because it seems to me that there are entirely too many variables to apply any one of these studies accurately to any given populous. Let's be intellectuals about this and discuss it rationally, shall we?

Say I take a town that has 100 people. And I decide to do a study there regarding Humanism and it's direct relation to psychological disorders. And let's say a good portion of this population are humanists (say 70%?), but about 20% of that group happen to also have some psychological disorder or another.

Have I then proved, through my study, that it's safe to assume that those who follow the Humanist teaching are more likely to be susceptible to psychological disorders? Not strictly speaking, no. Not to mention the myriad of little variables including, but not limited to diet, hormonal activity, age, daily stressers, nicotine use, participant's integrity, researchers integrity, etc. So while studies do give us some valuable information, it's very important to use rational thinking when interpreting them and, even more importantly when using their contents in our daily conversation. Again, thanks for the information. I'll continue to read, but the thread went quiet and I didn't want you to think we'd abandoned it simply because we didn't "like" the information.

 

[Human]

Wow what great resources. Thanks for these. However, thus far, and I may be corrected in further examination of these studies and, by extension, your interpretation(s) of their association with very diverse group you seem to be blanketing under the title "Christians".... But it seems as if these studies are a bit slanted. I don't believe any of them justifies a generalization of all christians, just as I don't believe all atheist can be put into one category. We are forgetting one very important factor here. Individuality. I am a Christian... And (just picking a name out of a hat here) Hizikyah is a christian. Do we both believe the same thing? Absolutely. Does that mean we both have exactly the same opinion on everything? Absolutely not. You (I'm guessing here?) are an atheist? And I'm sure you know at least one other atheist who you thoroughly disagree with on most things.

Not all of us have stereotypes about atheists... In fact, I think you'll find many of us, at one time or another in our lives WERE atheists. So, as long as we're avoiding the generalization and discrimination against atheists, let's play fair and do the same for Christians, assuming they're each capable of individual thoughts and emotions.

That said, let's revisit one of these studies. Have you any background in the scientific method? Because it seems to me that there are entirely too many variables to apply any one of these studies accurately to any given populous. Let's be intellectuals about this and discuss it rationally, shall we?

Say I take a town that has 100 people. And I decide to do a study there regarding Humanism and it's direct relation to psychological disorders. And let's say a good portion of this population are humanists (say 70%?), but about 20% of that group happen to also have some psychological disorder or another.

Have I then proved, through my study, that it's safe to assume that those who follow the Humanist teaching are more likely to be susceptible to psychological disorders? Not strictly speaking, no. Not to mention the myriad of little variables including, but not limited to diet, hormonal activity, age, daily stressers, nicotine use, participant's integrity, researchers integrity, etc. So while studies do give us some valuable information, it's very important to use rational thinking when interpreting them and, even more importantly when using their contents in our daily conversation. Again, thanks for the information. I'll continue to read, but the thread went quiet and I didn't want you to think we'd abandoned it simply because we didn't "like" the information.

I appreciate your sentiments. And I agree -- no, it isn't fair to apply direct generalizations to entire groups, particularly generalizations wrought with logical fallacies and fundamental errors, such as 'no atheist is moral', or 'all Muslims believe in stoning people to death', nor is it logically correct to assume, from a small pool of people, that a trend can be properly established (and do note that what I am establishing is a trend, not a unanimous statement of all Christian peoples' inherent delinquency), however, given the size of the pool (316 million) and the consitency of the figures regarding prison populational religious affiliatios across that pool (as well as the consistency of frequency of crime within particular religious or nonreligous demographics, the correlation between crime and religious belief and the direct causational effect of religion on the psyche as expressed by various authors on the topic who hold academic doctorates or professorships in their discipline) it is absolutely fair of me to say, on that basis, that 'Christians are more likely in America to commit crime than atheists', because they are.

No conclusion, however scientific themethod and verifiable the statistic upon which is is based (and those statistics are quite accurate, and my method rather clinical), other than abstract theories such as the theory behind simple mathematics or the physical laws of nature, is unopposably and totally correct. In most cases, it is essentially a matter of probability. It is, however, extremely probable -- overwhelmingly so -- that Christians are much more likely to commit crime than atheists in the USA.

That said, I posted those statistics and gave them in the forward, blunt manner I did simply because, to be honest with you, I have had quite enough of the consistent comments on this site that mistakenly assume atheists, simply by virtue of their personal beliefs, are immoral, ungiving, uncharitable, unvirtuous charlatains in league with Satan or whichever other ridiculous generalization is asserted. It seems to me, in fact quite ironically, that this kind of unfounded claim is in part the very point of this thread, and is why I found it pertinent to say what I have said here.

I certainly consider you, thus far, a woman more rational than those who have in the past posted such claims. I don't consider every Christian a criminal, nor every Christian to be assuming, or self-righteous, or enimical. I do assume those who post clearly invalid assertions about the apparent moral retardation of American atheists to be grossly misinformed, though.

Hopefully they can, from what I have provided, at least approach atheism without the grand assumption of the inherent moral superiority of the Christian from the outset, and instead give atheists the respect they deserve in this respect -- we are not the biggest divorcers, the biggest criminals, nor the biggest scrooges in Western society, not by a long shot.

Please don't mistake my effort to put forth genuine information as aggression, I simply wanted to set the record straight.

 

[Chopper]

Take heed what was written in the ten commandments as the 2nd commandment, and what happens if it is disobeyed aside from the penalty if sin itself. You not only curse yourself, but also the next thee and four generations of your children. Yah means what He says about this, so I'd strongly advise against it.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I YHWH thy Elohim am a jealous Elohim, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[hannahbeth1124]

I appreciate your sentiments. And I agree -- no, it isn't fair to apply direct generalizations to entire groups, particularly generalizations wrought with logical fallacies and fundamental errors, such as 'no atheist is moral', or 'all Muslims believe in stoning people to death', nor is it logically correct to assume, from a small pool of people, that a trend can be properly established (and do note that what I am establishing is a trend, not a unanimous statement of all Christian peoples' inherent delinquency), however, given the size of the pool (316 million) and the consitency of the figures regarding prison populational religious affiliatios across that pool (as well as the consistency of frequency of crime within particular religious or nonreligous demographics, the correlation between crime and religious belief and the direct causational effect of religion on the psyche as expressed by various authors on the topic who hold academic doctorates or professorships in their discipline) it is absolutely fair of me to say, on that basis, that 'Christians are more likely in America to commit crime than atheists', because they are.

No conclusion, however scientific themethod and verifiable the statistic upon which is is based (and those statistics are quite accurate, and my method rather clinical), other than abstract theories such as the theory behind simple mathematics or the physical laws of nature, is unopposably and totally correct. In most cases, it is essentially a matter of probability. It is, however, extremely probable -- overwhelmingly so -- that Christians are much more likely to commit crime than atheists in the USA.

That said, I posted those statistics and gave them in the forward, blunt manner I did simply because, to be honest with you, I have had quite enough of the consistent comments on this site that mistakenly assume atheists, simply by virtue of their personal beliefs, are immoral, ungiving, uncharitable, unvirtuous charlatains in league with Satan or whichever other ridiculous generalization is asserted. It seems to me, in fact quite ironically, that this kind of unfounded claim is in part the very point of this thread, and is why I found it pertinent to say what I have said here.

I certainly consider you, thus far, a woman more rational than those who have in the past posted such claims. I don't consider every Christian a criminal, nor every Christian to be assuming, or self-righteous, or enimical. I do assume those who post clearly invalid assertions about the apparent moral retardation of American atheists to be grossly misinformed, though.

Hopefully they can, from what I have provided, at least approach atheism without the grand assumption of the inherent moral superiority of the Christian from the outset, and instead give atheists the respect they deserve in this respect -- we are not the biggest divorcers, the biggest criminals, nor the biggest scrooges in Western society, not by a long shot.

Please don't mistake my effort to put forth genuine information as aggression, I simply wanted to set the record straight.

Well, sir. It seems you and I agree on a great many things! *the following is sarcasm... in case you couldn't hear it in the text, everyone else*

I'm gonna tell you a super, top-secrety Christian secret... Don't tell them I told you, they'll stone me... You ready?

Christians aren't supposed to do that. In fact, when they do that, they're directly contradicting Jesus Christ himself. I don't blame you in the slightest for being fed up with it. I'm a Christian, and i even get fed up with it. The links you posted were very informative. Some of the sources the cited seem to be a bit out of date (not that that's at all your fault. Shame on them.) But, even if they were more up to date, I'm sure they'd reflect similar results. I'm about to do something that isn't going to make me very popular, but hey. Jesus wasn't very popular either. (They crucified him, you know.)

I think we all could stand to learn a little something from Mr Human over here. He and I don't agree on whether or not there's a god. But we seem to be able to hold a civilized, rational discussion. If he had any questions about my faith, I could answer them kindly and honestly, without generalizing his beliefs. Shame on us all if we can't manage the one thing Christ told us directly to do. Truly... And even after being persecuted, by probably more "Christians" than I'd care to know about, he's having patience with me. He's being kind. Sounds a lot like coming in love, doesn't it?

If we expect to be taken seriously, or even remotely begin to help people understand our faith and why we want to share it, we need to get our act together. And this atheist does a fine job articulating his points and has boundless patience, making the majority of us look like uneducated children in the process. He's not the enemy, people. He's a human being. They're all human beings. Learn to relate, learn to articulate, and for crying out loud, remember the things taught by Christ.

And, I stress again, atheist and satanist are NOT interchangeable terms.

Human, if you want to hash any of this out in PMs before we're both attacked, feel free to PM me.

Everyone else (the exceptions know who they are): I love you all in Christ, but I'm embarrassed. I'll pray you find tolerance and understanding. And I'll pray the same for myself. Because hey, you can't ever have too much of it. I think I'm about through beating this dead horse. lol