Does Acts 2:38 mean we have to be baptized to get into Heaven? -Debate

[kennethcadwell]

First of all I never once said "do not get baptized". My only point is that baptism is not "necessary for salvation or remission of sins." It is not a command unto salvation is my only point but yinz read into what I say, other things.

You see where the contradiction comes in though, you say not necessary for salvation. Yet the bible has it as a command given by our Lord, and some will take not needed as we don't have to be baptized by how you word it. This would lead people into disobeying a direct command from the Lord, and disobedience is called a sin of unbelief in the bible.

 

[VioletReigns]

The cross was for nothing if you refuse to read and obey what is actually in the bible and not man made doctrine.

Brother Jabberjaw (that is such a funny name & avatar!! LOL - sorry! ) I've been studying the Bible in the Hebrew, the Greek and English since 1978. Jesus Christ IS the Living Word and the Holy Spirit brings to our remembrance anything He wants us to know. And the Word, Jesus Christ my Lord, said that salvation is a free gift to those who accept Him into their hearts. You are in extreme error if you think you can earn salvation or maintain salvation.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus proclaiming that he was always obedient to all the holy laws. The man thought he earned salvation by obedience. But Jesus saw deeper into the young man's heart. The Lord discerned that the man loved something more than he loved God. When Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and follow Him, Jesus knew the man would not do it. Jesus was just trying to get the man to realize that following all the laws didn't make him holy. The Lord saw things deep in the man's heart that even the young man did not see in himself!

And the young ruler walked away sadly realizing that his heart was on his possessions. There is only one way and that is believing that Jesus paid the price and nothing we do can add to it. Praise the Lord for His great gift to us!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Brother Jabberjaw (that is such a funny name & avatar!! LOL - sorry! ) I've been studying the Bible in the Hebrew, the Greek and English since 1978. Jesus Christ IS the Living Word and the Holy Spirit brings to our remembrance anything He wants us to know. And the Word, Jesus Christ my Lord, said that salvation is a free gift to those who accept Him into their hearts. You are in extreme error if you think you can earn salvation or maintain salvation.

The rich young ruler came to Jesus proclaiming that he was always obedient to all the holy laws. The man thought he earned salvation by obedience. But Jesus saw deeper into the young man's heart. The Lord discerned that the man loved something more than he loved God. When Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell everything he had and follow Him, Jesus knew the man would not do it. Jesus was just trying to get the man to realize that following all the laws didn't make him holy. The Lord saw things deep in the man's heart that even the young man did not see in himself!

And the young ruler walked away sadly realizing that his heart was on his possessions. There is only one way and that is believing that Jesus paid the price and nothing we do can add to it. Praise the Lord for His great gift to us!

Exactly he focused on self and not the love of others, which is another command the Lord gave.
To love your neighbor as yourself......showing the young ruler did not obey the finer points of the law in love, forgiveness, and mercy.
Obedience is still part of our faith, to say we don't have to do nothing that the Lord Jesus commanded out of love for Him is disobedience to His teachings. Lord Jesus would not have said things in the gospel to believers that are to be a part of a believers walk if they were not necessary.

 

[elf3]

You see where the contradiction comes in though, you say not necessary for salvation. Yet the bible has it as a command given by our Lord, and some will take not needed as we don't have to be baptized by how you word it. This would lead people into disobeying a direct command from the Lord, and disobedience is called a sin of unbelief in the bible.

But baptized or not we don't lose our salvation.

 

[LamentedHaven]

I believe that water baptism will in no way save you or atone for your sins. Ye must be born again (John 3:7) Jesus said in john 7:[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.----------This is a direct reference to the Holy Spirit. The water baptism is a public declaration in which the new Christian is confirming his faith in Jesus as the Son of God who died for their sins and was raised from the grave. In Roman Catholicism it is taught in error that water baptismal regeneration is essential for salvation. From my research I find verses such as Mark 16: [SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.---------to refer to the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize: in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matthew 28:19 But I in no way believe that water atones for sin. Leviticus 17:11 states it is blood which provides atonement. In conclusion I would in no way detour anyone from getting baptized. If we desire to be Christ-like and we await his second coming and acknowledge him as Master then we should walk as he walked. Just keep in mind what John the Baptist said in Matthew 3:[SUP]11 [/SUP]I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:---------It is our High Priest Jesus who baptizes us with the Holy Ghost. Likewise the baptism of fire reference has been quite controversial. In the Pentecostal religion (which I am not Pentecostal) it is believed that we are baptized with the fire of the Holy Spirit. I on the other hand lean more towards the reference to fire meaning the "Day of the LORD) when the lost are cast into the Lake of Fire. I adhere to this conclusion because John immediately begins describing that dreadful day after he made the statements of baptism via fire in verse 11. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For our God is a consuming fire. (Hebrews 12:29)

 

[VioletReigns]

I have posted this before and I'm going to post it again. The Word says that MANY will exclaim to the Almighty Lord, "Have we not prophesied in Your name and cast out devils in Your name and did mighty works in Your name?" And the Lord will answer, "Get away from Me, I never knew you, you workers of iniquity!"

How can that be?? MANY will be turned away?? WHY??? Workers of iniquity?? Yet they used Jesus' name!

Might it be because they thought they earned entrance into the Kingdom?

And yet there will be those who ask, "When did we feed or clothe You, Lord? When did we visit You in prison?" And Jesus will say, "When you did it to the least of my brethren, you did it to Me!"

How could they not have known they were doing the Lord's will??? Is that possible??

Might it be because they were just focusing on Jesus alone and the Lord was accomplishing His purposes through them? Might it be because they loved Jesus so much and were so enthralled with Him alone that His holy nature became their holy nature?

Jesus did the will of the Father because Jesus was pure and holy and unselfish. Jesus' very nature was love. If that Jesus lives in us (via His Holy Spirit) we wouldn't be so concerned with our own works. We wouldn't have our eyes on ourselves at all! We would have our eyes only on Him and be clay in His great hands and He Himself would love others through us.

Here are some questions to ask yourself: Are your eyes on you or are they on Jesus? Are you preaching Jesus Christ crucified or something else? Are you a faithful servant of Jesus or are you faithful to your works and your own holiness? Will the Lord say to you, "I never knew you." or will He say, "Well done, my faithful servant!"

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

'focus' on Jesus i think you said/posted. good. the believers immersed in Him followed Him and did as He said. They questioned Him at times, but did what He said. those who did not want to do what Jesus said, they stopped following Him,. and He let them go without pleading with them and without trying to stop them. All those who the Father gave to Him, He protected by His Word, as it is written in Torah. not one was lost except the son of perdition, in order to fulfill prophesy - God Kept His Word Perfect.

now people grow up jumbled up. not knowing God's Word. being taught instead a lot of other things. so UNlearning what is not of God is, God's Doing (man is not capable). if someone listens to God to learn from God, God teaches Him. (there may be other conditions as well - in the Word and the Will and PLan and Purpose of God; it all depends on God through Jesus).
if someone "would not" , i.e. "will not" listen and do what He says, they don't learn any more. they're stopped. God won't make them learn or listen or obey. a key here is to not hold to tightly to what was learned in th past , as if it is God's Word, because a parent or teacher or whoever said it. it is written that someone who trusts in the flesh, God curses. so it is important to God Himself for His people to not trust in the flesh. trust in God. by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. that is good. then all the other things, not of Him, will fall away like scales falling from the eyes of the blind man Jesus healed...... it does and can take a long long time - even decades.... don't give up. God didn't hold back anything when He sent Jesus to be born of man a human , and to die crucifixion for men when they didn't even love Him...... He has mercy and patience.... trust Him, and wait for Him, for His Word; seek His face and devote to Him the whole life..... He will not, will never, disappoint.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If baptism can be thrown out

No one is throwing out baptism, just as a means of salvation. Everyone is commanded to be baptized.

then so can also prayer and repentance. The "not of works" crowd are not consistent.

Jesus himself says quite clearly faith in God is a work of God, not our work. It is he who causes a change of heart, and leads us to the point we ask him for his gift. Your argument is faulty, No one is going to go around and boasting of the fact they trusted god in everything, and not in themselves. this goes against human logic, yet I have heard any boast of how they were baptized...

If no works at all are necessary then prayer and repentance can also be denied as what is necessary to do to be saved. When they asked in Acts what they must do to be saved Peter said repent and be baptized. Two things. So you should throw out the repentance part as well if you think you can throw out the baptism part. You are not consistent.

1. You need to go back to school this makes no sense. (learn what the words faith means)
2. Peter did not say 2 things, How many times do you people have to be shown Peter only made one command to everyone if they wanted the gift of the HS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

actually the greek word for the second "beleive" literal means to obey. it is in the negative sense. (I had to look it up when I saw it also)

but it does not matter, it still means the same, since true obedience comes only from true faith. a person who does not obey at all has proven he has no faith period.. so one who does not obey, does not believe, thus was never saved, thus was condemned..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you saying Peter didn't know what he was saying in Acts 2:38?

no, it is YOU who does not understand what Peter said in Acts 2: 38, it does not say what you claim, just a small study in the greek would prove this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok wow you all went nuts last night, I am not going to read 6 pages..lol I see nothing got straightened out though

 

[Mitspa]

Keep going:

John 15:14 (NKJV) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus told the "disciples" to make "disciples", he told the "disciples" to baptize.

Paul tells us there is one saving baptism :

Ephesians 4:5 (NKJV) one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

John the baptizer tells us he (a disciple) baptizes with water, and that Jesus is the ONLY one who can baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire :

Matthew 3:11 (NKJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus tells the "disciples" to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them", he did not tell the disciples "Go therefore and I will make disciples of all the nations baptizing them", he told the disciples to do the baptizing,

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

the ONLY baptism a disciple can do is "water baptism" (Matt 3:11), and since there is only 1 saving baptism (Eph 4:5) then water baptism is required for salvation.

very simple ...ALL the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD...love ..and that being the commandment of Christ

 

[Mitspa]

It may not be the same words that he uses, but still has the same meaning.
There is no change in meaning between what Paul was preaching, and what the Lord Jesus already preached. Just a difference in wording.

Just like you and me, if we each wrote an article on the same event we witnessed. The wording that both of us would use would be different, yet the meaning and the event will still be the same.
In the same since that at times saved, salvation, eternal life, and crown of life are all used for the same meaning and outcome.
And also eternal punishment, death, lake of fire, cut off, disqualified are all some of the words used to explain the outcome of willful sin.

Paul changed his wording a lot determining to who he was talking to at the time using things in that area that people were accustomed to so that they would understand what he was saying when it came to salvation and how to receive it. It did not change the meaning, just because he used different words.

You pointed out two things you "think" was mentioned in some way in the gospels... You understand my point and its clear to all who have really studied the epistles of Paul that He alone shows us the truths of Gods Grace and the finished work of the Cross to secure us in Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

actually the greek word for the second "beleive" literal means to obey. it is in the negative sense. (I had to look it up when I saw it also)

but it does not matter, it still means the same, since true obedience comes only from true faith. a person who does not obey at all has proven he has no faith period.. so one who does not obey, does not believe, thus was never saved, thus was condemned..

Good point the word can sometimes be translated as "obey" But its a horrible translation in context of the passage. I guess I had never seen that translation before and I think its a real attempt to change the truth of the gospel by those who would put back into the bondage of legalism.... But our friend Kenneth is not responsible for that error. Thanks for the post

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good point the word can sometimes be translated as "obey" But its a horrible translation in context of the passage. I guess I had never seen that translation before and I think its a real attempt to change the truth of the gospel by those who would put back into the bondage of legalism.... But our friend Kenneth is not responsible for that error. Thanks for the post

it depends.

It says does not obey (meaning never)

it still does not help the legalist. Because these people have never obeyed God not even one time.

those who believe have been saved, ad thus out of their faith obedience comes..

It is like james said, if once claims he has faith, but has no work (obedience) can his faith save him, well of course, not. his faith was dead, it was no faith at all..

They have not obeyed the gospel to be saved. so they can not obey anything else (do works)

 

[Jabberjaw]

The rich young ruler came to Jesus proclaiming that he was always obedient to all the holy laws. The man thought he earned salvation by obedience.

But He did not do ALL he commanded him to do :

Luke 18:22-23 (NKJV)
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

You see? he lacked one thing, and would not do the one thing...

He also said be baptized to be saved Mark 16:16, if you die lacking that one thing, what makes you think you are any better than the rich young ruler?

You see more than one thing in the bible that says the word "saved" and you think you can pick and choose which one of those you can do, what gives you that authority?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Good point the word can sometimes be translated as "obey" But its a horrible translation in context of the passage. I guess I had never seen that translation before and I think its a real attempt to change the truth of the gospel by those who would put back into the bondage of legalism.... But our friend Kenneth is not responsible for that error. Thanks for the post

You mean it doesn't say what you need it to say to fit your man made doctrine of sitting on the couch while God saves you?

 

[Jabberjaw]

Keep going:

John 15:14 (NKJV) You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus told the "disciples" to make "disciples", he told the "disciples" to baptize.

Paul tells us there is one saving baptism :

Ephesians 4:5 (NKJV) one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

John the baptizer tells us he (a disciple) baptizes with water, and that Jesus is the ONLY one who can baptize with the Holy Spirit and with Fire :

Matthew 3:11 (NKJV) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Jesus tells the "disciples" to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them", he did not tell the disciples "Go therefore and I will make disciples of all the nations baptizing them", he told the disciples to do the baptizing,

Matthew 28:19-20 (NKJV) [SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]20 [/SUP] teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

the ONLY baptism a disciple can do is "water baptism" (Matt 3:11), and since there is only 1 saving baptism (Eph 4:5) then water baptism is required for salvation.

very simple ...ALL the law is fulfilled in ONE WORD...love ..and that being the commandment of Christ

So you can throw all those verses out? in fact you can throw your bible away, just everybody give a big group hug...

Good luck with that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But He did not do ALL he commanded him to do :

Luke 18:22-23 (NKJV)
22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 23 But when he heard this, he became very sorrowful, for he was very rich.

You see? he lacked one thing, and would not do the one thing...

He also said be baptized to be saved Mark 16:16, if you die lacking that one thing, what makes you think you are any better than the rich young ruler?

You see more than one thing in the bible that says the word "saved" and you think you can pick and choose which one of those you can do, what gives you that authority?

wow really?

he said he obeyed it all. jesus proved him wrong, and he would not admit it. that is why he walked away, he loved his wealth more than God. he is no different than the pharisees, who refused to admit they sinned also

getting baptized is not going to help make me more righteous than this person, I would still be condemned as a sinner. the only thing which can make me righteous, is the blood of christ, not some water.

 

[Jabberjaw]

no, it is YOU who does not understand what Peter said in Acts 2: 38, it does not say what you claim, just a small study in the greek would prove this.

Good thing we have all these Greek scholars out here...