Have the New Testament Charismatic gifts ceased?

[Stephen63]

I appreciate your contention but it is not evident in the church. The Holy Spirit operates through believers. The Holy Spirit is not operating through the organization called church.

Tongues are a sign gift and are for Israel not for the Gentiles. It speaks volumes that the modern Pentecostal church desires tongues with so great a fervency. Tongues if you notice are a sign to Israel of judgment. When Israel was disobedient God brought them under the control of nations with languages they did not speak. The tower of Babel was a place of Gods judgment not blessing upon the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The lack of gifts in the church is no evidence of them being done away with no more than legalistic churches define that grace is done away with. They don't have it because they don't believe.

In these last days, it's no surprise there's so much unbelief in the church..... yours, mine, anybody's.

 

[ForthAngel]

Well if Paul had to suffer a illness and God did not remove that from him for some reason, that still don't change the clear and evident promise that Christ has healed us by His Stripes... That if ANY are sick let them call for the elders.... And Paul taught the reason many are sick is because they don't perceive the Lords Body... I personally don't believe Paul was sick but had been beaten recently and still had the effects of that beating.

Jesus said "you will do greater things".In the NT it says "according to your faith be it unto you." If you have the faith of a mustard seed ALL can be healed and it is Gods will that ALL be healed. No one is greater or more deserving of healing than any other.

Spiritual healing. Not physical. Aches and pains being relieved is not miraculous healing. This is the definition of vanity. No truly crippled people are being healed today. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere, not just endless story after endless story. This stuff would be big and broadcasted broadly. Controlled stage shows do not let truly ill or terminal people on stage.

Maybe if Paul had enough faith, he could have been healed instantly of those injuries?

No greater thing than someone coming to Christ and evangelists have brought more to Christ in the past 2000 years than in the few years during Christ's time. I'd say we have done greater things in that regard.

Works do not mean miracles.

If you want to use the faith in a mustard seed verse, why are people not outside terraforming the landscape with their great faith? If they can heal someone of terminal illness, or have the faith to be healed from terminal illness, why are people not literally moving mountains or controlling the weather when hurricanes are about to destroy thousands? Surely if their faith is so great, we'd be seeing supernatural powers being displayed all over the place and incredible things happening to better the world, no?

 

[Mitspa]

You know if I ever see a sick Christian that has the Power God gave to Paul and the revelation given to Paul...I might understand that they need to be reminded of the weakness of the flesh. But for folks to claim this position with Paul to somehow justify being sick, is just a bunch of religious pride in my view.

 

[Mitspa]

Spiritual healing. Not physical. Aches and pains being relieved is not miraculous healing. This is the definition of vanity. No truly crippled people are being healed today. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere, not just endless story after endless story. This stuff would be big and broadcasted broadly. Controlled stage shows do not let truly ill or terminal people on stage.

Maybe if Paul had enough faith, he could have been healed instantly of those injuries?

No greater thing than someone coming to Christ and evangelists have brought more to Christ in the past 2000 years than in the few years during Christ's time. I'd say we have done greater things in that regard.

Works do not mean miracles.

If you want to use the faith in a mustard seed verse, why are people not outside terraforming the landscape with their great faith? If they can heal someone of terminal illness, or have the faith to be healed from terminal illness, why are people not literally moving mountains or controlling the weather when hurricanes are about to destroy thousands? Surely if their faith is so great, we'd be seeing supernatural powers being displayed all over the place and incredible things happening to better the world, no?

So again the suffering is real and physical...but the healing that's just symbolic and not real in the physical realm? This just sounds like some are trying to justify there unbelief to me.. Again Paul and the others suffered at the hands of the ungodly because they believed that "by His Stripes we are healed" not because they didn't believe.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Spiritual healing. Not physical. Aches and pains being relieved is not miraculous healing. This is the definition of vanity. No truly crippled people are being healed today. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere, not just endless story after endless story. This stuff would be big and broadcasted broadly. Controlled stage shows do not let truly ill or terminal people on stage.

Maybe if Paul had enough faith, he could have been healed instantly of those injuries?

No greater thing than someone coming to Christ and evangelists have brought more to Christ in the past 2000 years than in the few years during Christ's time. I'd say we have done greater things in that regard.

Works do not mean miracles.

If you want to use the faith in a mustard seed verse, why are people not outside terraforming the landscape with their great faith? If they can heal someone of terminal illness, or have the faith to be healed from terminal illness, why are people not literally moving mountains or controlling the weather when hurricanes are about to destroy thousands? Surely if their faith is so great, we'd be seeing supernatural powers being displayed all over the place and incredible things happening to better the world, no?

Really you are going to go there that if that type of healing a crippled and so on was really done then it would be broadcasted all over.
First the bible states that those who have these gifts from the Holy Spirit are not to do them openly for other people to see. Charitable, healing, and other gifts are to be done not openly like that to make a show or spectacle of it....

Second the media sources are government controlled, and the government keeps people under control easier by keeping people divided. If they constantly released stuff that without a shadow of a doubt showed the truth of the bible, and the miracles gifts still administered by the Holy Spirit when it serves God's will to be done. Then more people would pull that way and override how the government works and the laws they enforce.

Third would be also you are not looking in the right places, for there has been stories and testimonies from people all over the web that you can look up. Where the individual had a life ending illness like a deadly cancer, went to a church and a group of individuals laid hands on them and prayed over them. And when they returned to the hospital for a checkup the illness or cancer was gone.......

 

[ForthAngel]

Really you are going to go there that if that type of healing a crippled and so on was really done then it would be broadcasted all over.
First the bible states that those who have these gifts from the Holy Spirit are not to do them openly for other people to see. Charitable, healing, and other gifts are to be done not openly like that to make a show or spectacle of it....

Second the media sources are government controlled, and the government keeps people under control easier by keeping people divided. If they constantly released stuff that without a shadow of a doubt showed the truth of the bible, and the miracles gifts still administered by the Holy Spirit when it serves God's will to be done. Then more people would pull that way and override how the government works and the laws they enforce.

Third would be also you are not looking in the right places, for there has been stories and testimonies from people all over the web that you can look up. Where the individual had a life ending illness like a deadly cancer, went to a church and a group of individuals laid hands on them and prayed over them. And when they returned to the hospital for a checkup the illness or cancer was gone.......

Where does the bible say they are private? Jesus and the Apostles had a public ministry. It wasn't private for some secret sect of believers.

There are tons of private media sources. Youtube, facebook, and plenty of places for "leaks" that the governments try to control.

I have seen a ton of testimonies. All seem fabricated or are vain in nature. Those with outstanding claims, such as someone being raised from the dead, or someone regrowing a limb are far from credible.

I will state again that I am not opposed to miracles or the gifts, but the evidence, biblically, historically, and lack of credible witnesses currently, are completely against modern sign gifts, which btw weren't given any credit until the modern overthrow of the church by this circus of charlatans we see today starting in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

NO miracles in the bible were commonplace. Never. The existed for a short time for a certain purpose (always to confirm God was speaking or giving authority to someone), and then ended with sometimes huge gaps in time before the next.

People have asked for years now for someone to provide evidence of a fake miracle and a real one. No one can do it. If no one can show the difference, how are they free from any satanic deception? I would again challenge someone to give us evidence. An easy one to show would be the difference in fake tongues and real tongues. There are a gazillion videos of people speaking in tongues. Please show us real and fake so we know what to look for.

This is not a question of my faith in Christ or the sufficiency of scripture, because I have those without a doubt. What I do doubt is fabrications and lies that are easily debunked over and over.

 

[The_highwayman]

Give me a break. If you become infirmed will you cease to be a believer in Christ? It is likely that you will have an infirmity at sometime in your life that God will not take away. One that comes to mind is old age. You had best develop an appreciation for the old folks for if God is merciful you will become one. Observe how elder saints of God suffer for His glory. Not self righteous but humble and allowing God to use their weaknesses for His glory.

Charismatics are a million miles wide and not one inch deep.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger you are now engaging in witchcraft, because you are asking God to judge another person and wish them to join you in your suffering.

SO what happened? did you get a disease or life changing illness, then asked for healing and did not receive it?

So now everyone who believe God for healing is wrong, because your bitterness, rage and anger over God not doing it for you has now convinced you that suffering is what God wills for you?

Sickness is not from God period and spare me the argument Paul had sickness in his physical body and God's grace was good with that, because Paul did not carry physical sickness it was a messenger from satan.

I am not a Charismatic either, I believe in the totality of God's word and do not keep the suffering only parts and through out the parts that would actually let God heal me.

come to full age and stop petting yourself and your circumstance, I have set the Lord always before him, since he is on my right side I SHALL NOT BE MOVED!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Where does the bible say they are private? Jesus and the Apostles had a public ministry. It wasn't private for some secret sect of believers.

There are tons of private media sources. Youtube, facebook, and plenty of places for "leaks" that the governments try to control.

I have seen a ton of testimonies. All seem fabricated or are vain in nature. Those with outstanding claims, such as someone being raised from the dead, or someone regrowing a limb are far from credible.

I will state again that I am not opposed to miracles or the gifts, but the evidence, biblically, historically, and lack of credible witnesses currently, are completely against modern sign gifts, which btw weren't given any credit until the modern overthrow of the church by this circus of charlatans we see today starting in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

NO miracles in the bible were commonplace. Never. The existed for a short time for a certain purpose (always to confirm God was speaking or giving authority to someone), and then ended with sometimes huge gaps in time before the next.

People have asked for years now for someone to provide evidence of a fake miracle and a real one. No one can do it. If no one can show the difference, how are they free from any satanic deception? I would again challenge someone to give us evidence. An easy one to show would be the difference in fake tongues and real tongues. There are a gazillion videos of people speaking in tongues. Please show us real and fake so we know what to look for.

This is not a question of my faith in Christ or the sufficiency of scripture, because I have those without a doubt. What I do doubt is fabrications and lies that are easily debunked over and over.

The ministry was public, as in the preaching and the teaching.
But Jesus Himself in Matthew 6 said do not do things to be seen by man, as in making a public skeptical or show out of it.
Those who do that will receive their reward of punishment for making a public skeptical of the works of the Holy Spirit, in other words mocking Him. Those who do things privately not expecting anything in return, will be given their reward of eternal life for doing God's will in a respectful and loving manner. Those who have the gifts are not to do these things to get public recognition, taking credit for it, or get the praise for it. All that is to be given to God.


The second is that those who don't believe these still exist either fall in one of two categories;
A) They don't truly believe in them

B) They want them to be performed in a very large scale, or to where everybody with an illness/medical condition can and will get healed. Which it does not work that way, it works the way God deems it to be done. Not how we want it done.

 

[The_highwayman]

And with the getting get understanding. I do know that you cannot find purity in any place where the Lord is absent. I know that God does not work outside His word. I'm all for being open but like an open window it is best to have a screen on it or the bugs will doubtless come. The screen is Gods word.

I always wonder if the church of today would exist if it had nothing but a man anointed of God to minister the word to the assembly. No music, no AC, not even a pew to sit on, just a man with a bible and the Holy Spirit to minister the word of God. Would folks,if souls were being saved and believers discipled, assemble together and rejoice in their hearts at the presence of God? Strip away all the glitz and glamor and all that is there is the Lord would folks be thankful and rejoice?

The modern church is more Hollywood than heavenly. It isn't right.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You should read and study how those in OT worshiped God and then come back to me and tell me were the modern church is wrong.

 

[kaylagrl]

Spiritual healing. Not physical. Aches and pains being relieved is not miraculous healing. This is the definition of vanity. No truly crippled people are being healed today. There would be some kind of evidence somewhere, not just endless story after endless story. This stuff would be big and broadcasted broadly. Controlled stage shows do not let truly ill or terminal people on stage.

Maybe if Paul had enough faith, he could have been healed instantly of those injuries?

No greater thing than someone coming to Christ and evangelists have brought more to Christ in the past 2000 years than in the few years during Christ's time. I'd say we have done greater things in that regard.

Works do not mean miracles.

If you want to use the faith in a mustard seed verse, why are people not outside terraforming the landscape with their great faith? If they can heal someone of terminal illness, or have the faith to be healed from terminal illness, why are people not literally moving mountains or controlling the weather when hurricanes are about to destroy thousands? Surely if their faith is so great, we'd be seeing supernatural powers being displayed all over the place and incredible things happening to better the world, no?

Please be careful of what you are saying.Just because you haven't seen a cripple walk does not mean it is not happening.I personally know of people who have been healed.One who shattered his leg and was told he would never walk again,yet he is indeed walking today.I have a friend who was healed of cancer.My own father was healed of a cancerous cyst as a child. So do not say God does not heal today.You are wrong! I personally know missionaries who have seen people raised from the dead.You will not and cannot limit what God will do.And he has healed people of more than headaches,which he healed my mother or migraines btw.

Again you are totally either misunderstanding or ignoring what the Bible says about Paul.He was GIVEN the thorn in the flesh to HUMBLE him.It wasn't his lack of faith!! Read the verse!!

 

[ForthAngel]

The ministry was public, as in the preaching and the teaching.
But Jesus Himself in Matthew 6 said do not do things to be seen by man, as in making a public skeptical or show out of it.
Those who do that will receive their reward of punishment for making a public skeptical of the works of the Holy Spirit, in other words mocking Him. Those who do things privately not expecting anything in return, will be given their reward of eternal life for doing God's will in a respectful and loving manner. Those who have the gifts are not to do these things to get public recognition, taking credit for it, or get the praise for it. All that is to be given to God.


The second is that those who don't believe these still exist either fall in one of two categories;
A) They don't truly believe in them

B) They want them to be performed in a very large scale, or to where everybody with an illness/medical condition can and will get healed. Which it does not work that way, it works the way God deems it to be done. Not how we want it done.

Matthew 6 is specifically about prayer, fasting, and alms, not miracles. They did miracles publicly for all to see. Even the pharisees couldn't deny that they were miracles.

I believe in them now, as much as the believers did then. The point is that they are no longer operational or we would see them. Period.

 

[ForthAngel]

Please be careful of what you are saying.Just because you haven't seen a cripple walk does not mean it is not happening.I personally know of people who have been healed.One who shattered his leg and was told he would never walk again,yet he is indeed walking today.I have a friend who was healed of cancer.My own father was healed of a cancerous cyst as a child. So do not say God does not heal today.You are wrong! I personally know missionaries who have seen people raised from the dead.You will not and cannot limit what God will do.And he has healed people of more than headaches,which he healed my mother or migraines btw.

Again you are totally either misunderstanding or ignoring what the Bible says about Paul.He was GIVEN the thorn in the flesh to HUMBLE him.It wasn't his lack of faith!! Read the verse!!

Was he healed instantly or over time? There is a difference in God's providence and a miracle. Was your friend healed instantly of cancer or over time through medical treatment? If the answers to these are instantly, they would prove it to people, just as all who were healed in the bible ran immediately to tell and show everyone. They didn't keep it a secret.

God does still heal today. I never said he didn't. I am talking about miraculous, nature-defying, sign gifts that were given to those in authority to speak on behalf of God.

I am not ignoring anything. The consensus of the modern chaos churches is that faith is equivalent to good health, wealth, and a perfect life. This is not biblical, with Paul as the greatest example.

 

[SeaBass]

So all God was concerned with when He created the gifts was just to prove He wasn't lying. He had no concern at all for ending suffering.

Suffering has not ended, people are suffering today just like they did back in the first century when there were miracles taking place. The signs were not to end suffering but to bring about and confirm the completed word of God. That completed word of God is what perfects the man of God, 2 Tim 3:16,17, not signs. Signs were for the infantile Christian, 1 Cor 13 of the first century that did not have the completed word.

 

[kaylagrl]

Was he healed instantly or over time? There is a difference in God's providence and a miracle. Was your friend healed instantly of cancer or over time through medical treatment? If the answers to these are instantly, they would prove it to people, just as all who were healed in the bible ran immediately to tell and show everyone. They didn't keep it a secret.

God does still heal today. I never said he didn't. I am talking about miraculous, nature-defying, sign gifts that were given to those in authority to speak on behalf of God.

I am not ignoring anything. The consensus of the modern chaos churches is that faith is equivalent to good health, wealth, and a perfect life. This is not biblical, with Paul as the greatest example.

My father was healed instantly as a child of a cancerous cyst. He was on the way to the hospital to try and have it removed.There was a preacher on the radio talking about healing. My grandmother asked if he believed Jesus would heal him.He said he did.He laid his hand on the radio and the preacher prayed.The cyst immediately disappeared. Apparently it was very large.He tells this to everyone who talks about healing and has traveled and preached on healing.

 

[psalm6819]

Think Lazarus and the poor beggar. Lazarus asked that he could go tell his brothers to repent. Jesus said they had Moses and the prophets and even one raised from the dead would not convince them. Jesus resurrection did not convince some. When some people see healing-they still refuse to believe. I don't want that to be me-do you want it to be you?????ū

Don't limit God's power or His desire to help His children.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Galatians 4
12 I plead with you, brothers and sisters, become like me, for I became like you. You did me no wrong. 13 As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you, 14 and even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15 Where, then, is your blessing of me now? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16 Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?

Was Paul a faithless? Seems God's will was for Paul to be sick or injured during this time so that he could stay and preach the Gospel. Strange concept for many here.

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Cor. 12:7

Does it tell us in this verse what the "thorn in the flesh" was? Nope, but we do know who sent the "thorn". So we need to search out what is meant by Paul's "thorn in the flesh". In verses 8-10 we learn more about the thorn in the flesh but we still do not know what it is. If we look back to the first time this phrase was used we can glean more about what his "thorn in the flesh" is . . .

Numbers 33:35 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land [unbelievers] from before you; the it shall come to ass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. - here the inhabitants, the people, shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides.

Joshua 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they [the nations, which are made up of people] shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. - Again, people will be snares and traps unto you, scourges in your sides and thorns in your eyes . . .

Judges 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them [people] out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in our sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you. - And again people were to be as thorns in their sides.

Now from these three verses we can come to an understanding of what is meant by a "thorn in your side". People - people who were pricking and trying to buffet and discourage. Everywhere Paul went people constantly tried to alter the gospel which he preached. These people who followed him were thorns in his sides, pricks in his eyes, and thorns in his flesh. These people were the messengers of Satan sent to buffet, to obstruct his ministry, to interfere and weaken his work.

 

[ForthAngel]

Think Lazarus and the poor beggar. Lazarus asked that he could go tell his brothers to repent. Jesus said they had Moses and the prophets and even one raised from the dead would not convince them. Jesus resurrection did not convince some. When some people see healing-they still refuse to believe. I don't want that to be me-do you want it to be you?????ū

Don't limit God's power or His desire to help His children.

Are we to believe in the miracles or the work on the cross? I'll stick with my faith placed in Christ. I don't need to see anything for belief, and the bible does not define faith as such. Those who need a sign, Jesus called an evil and adulterous generation. We have the prophets and Christ as our testimony. We don't need signs and wonders. Spiritual infants do.

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Not,

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, or witnessing some miracle."

Where do you place your faith? In the sign or in the Word you heard?
---

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Matthew 6 is specifically about prayer, fasting, and alms, not miracles. They did miracles publicly for all to see. Even the pharisees couldn't deny that they were miracles.

I believe in them now, as much as the believers did then. The point is that they are no longer operational or we would see them. Period.

The chapter points those things out, but the fact of the matter is that it was using that as an example.
If you take any gift given to you, and make a skeptical and showing of it, making a mockery of the Holy Spirit that gift will be not administered through you by the Holy Spirit again.
And if you have not seen these things done still, like others have said you need to get out more and visit more places and churches. Others have given you personally testimonies of seeing it done in their life, and you still reject.
The bible also says that people will continue to do these gifts all the way through the last days, until the Holy Spirit is taken away and the Lord Jesus returns ( when that which is perfect comes, Jesus is the only one who was perfect ).

 

[ForthAngel]

The chapter points those things out, but the fact of the matter is that it was using that as an example.
If you take any gift given to you, and make a skeptical and showing of it, making a mockery of the Holy Spirit that gift will be not administered through you by the Holy Spirit again.
And if you have not seen these things done still, like others have said you need to get out more and visit more places and churches. Others have given you personally testimonies of seeing it done in their life, and you still reject.
The bible also says that people will continue to do these gifts all the way through the last days, until the Holy Spirit is taken away and the Lord Jesus returns ( when that which is perfect comes, Jesus is the only one who was perfect ).

Using Christ as our example, he did miracles publicly for all to see. Same with the Apostles. They were not done in secret.

Again, Matthew 6 is specifically addressing prayer, fasting, and alms.

Plenty of videos of "miracles" out there. Show one hat is legit.

 

[kaylagrl]

Using Christ as our example, he did miracles publicly for all to see. Same with the Apostles. They were not done in secret.

Again, Matthew 6 is specifically addressing prayer, fasting, and alms.

Plenty of videos of "miracles" out there. Show one hat is legit.

Every healing I mentioned was done in public and are "legit"