A very critical difference between the old and new covenants

[DiscipleDave]

i do apologize that i did not read the posts in this thread but would like to comment on it nonetheless.

The Biggest difference from the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is:

To be Righteous and in good standing with God in the Old Covenant, one must obey all the commandments.
To be Righteous and in good standing with God in the New Covenant, one must LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

An example would be this. A man under the old covenant committed a transgression against God, if they stole, because there was a commandment that said "Thou shalt not Steal"
A man under the new covenant commits a transgression against God, if they steal, NOT because there is a commandment that says "Thou shalt not Steal" but because that man failed to love the person they stole from.

Under the old covenant a person is Judged by their obedience to the commandments
Under the new covenant a person is Judged by how they have LOVED ONE ANOTHER or FAILED to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

When we all stand before God on Judgement Day it is not what sins we have committed or not committed that will be judged, what is judged, is How we have LOVED ONE ANOTHER. woe to those who Fail to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Do you help the needy?
Do you give to the poor?
Do you clothe the naked?
Do you give to charities?
Do you help those who ask of you to help?
Do you give without expecting anything in return?
Do you loan without charging interest?
Do you help those in your community?
Do you volunteer to help the homeless?
Do you volunteer at soup kitchens?
Do you volunteer your time freely to a good cause?
Do you open up your house to those who have no place to go?
Do you pick up that hitchhiker asking you for a ride?
Do you give presents for Christmas for the less fortunate?
The list can go on and on and on.

What? you don't do any of those things? Tell me then, How have you LOVED OTHERS?

^i^

This is all self righteousness and does not change your position with God one bit. Righteousness is not works or attainment based. Righteousness is a position given to you through Faith by God's grace, you do not earn righteousness it is a gift and it is a position you receive once you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. The position of righteousness never changes despite anything you do right or wrong. All the things you listed if done to attain righteousness is nothing more than self righteousness and means nothing, because it adds to everything Jesus did on the cross.

Should i believe you and what you teach, or believe what the Word of God teaches? If anyone does a study, even a little study on who are considered the righteous, it would not take long for a person to see what is being taught above is not Scriptural, but doctrines of men, what they interpret the Scriptures to mean.

Scriptures are clear, those who are righteous, are they that do righteousness. It is a false teaching and belief to think a person can do that which is unrighteous, and still be righteous. Let the Scriptures be true and what men teach lies. Those who are righteous, are they who do only righteousness. If you want to see the many, and i say many verses which teach about righteousness, then clink HERE or any word in blue above.

^i^

 

[jeff_peacemkr]

relax. the son who tells his father , yes, i will go and do what you say, then doesn't do it, is he faithful ? no.
the son who tells his father no, i won't do what you say; but then he changes his mind and goes and does as he is told, is he faithful ? yes.

so likewise, those who go and do what the Father says to do, are considered faithful .

even gentiles who do what the Father says to do, He may consider them faithful and reward them.
but if they don't do what the Father says to do, He says they are not His and if they say they are that they are liars.

 

[DiscipleDave]

You do not need to maintain righteousness through works, period. You were already made righteous at conversion. Anything you do to gain righteousness is self-righteousness and is as filthy rags. Nothing you could ever do for God even comes close to making you righteous like what Jesus did on the cross. Righteousness is not based on personal performance, it is based on position.

Simple formula for righteousness is:
Jesus + NOTHING = everything.

We are commanded by Jesus Christ Himself to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. And it is plainly written to "Be sure to maintain good works" and it is also written, those who are righteous do righteousness. You for some reason believe (contrary to Scriptures) that a person is righteous, no matter what. you do error and know not the Truth, but there is hope yet, you can study the Word concerning righteousness, and the Holy Ghost will reveal the Truth to you, or you can take the easy way, and merely believe as you do, and think you are righteous and going to Heaven no matter what you do in this life and pay the consequences of that belief on Judgement Day, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

^i^

 

[DiscipleDave]

amen, paul tells us how to do this.

Rom 8
[SUP]4 [/SUP]that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit

lol, that is the Truth which is also what i have been saying. You are NOT righteous if you walk according to the flesh. Those who are righteous, are those who DO righteousness. DOING. righteousness is not the free gift of God, Grace is. Righteousness if fulfilled when a person walks in the spirit, and walking in the Spirit is to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. And Those who LOVE ONE ANOTHER in thought only, are deceived and know not the Truth. LOVING ONE ANOTHER is DOING. You can't be considered righteous all the while you are fulfilling the desires of the flesh.

^i^

 

[AtonedFor]

... those who go and do what the Father says to do, are considered faithful .
even gentiles who do what the Father says to do, He may consider them faithful
and reward them. but if they don't do what the Father says to do,
He says they are not His

Yes, and it's amazing that no one notices who Paul was writing to
when he wrote to these 2 churches ...

Ephesians 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
to the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
2 to the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse:

 

[Hizikyah]

.Deut 18:18-19 "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers,
and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him.
Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" … #8085 … שָׁמַע … shama {shaw-mah'} …
in the Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar):
1) to hear, listen to, obey

So, in the new covenant, the free gift of grace (unwarranted favor)
is initially given with the understanding that …
believers will do their very best to be obedient to the Lord.

In the old covenant …
Obedience to the Law was NOT to be done out of very much appreciation or love for God.
The Israelites constantly rebelled against God because they didn’t have a deep love for Him.

In the new covenant …
Obedience to Jesus IS to be done out of great appreciation and love for He and Father God.
Christians are able to be obedient to the Lord not only because of their great love for Him,
but also because they have a new nature, the indwelling Holy Spirit,
a personal relationship with Father God and Jesus, and God’s word!

Deuteronomy 18 is about the Messiah and still holds true today. It says we are supposed to hear and obey the Messiah...

Possibly I am misunderstanding you but, I get the feeling, like you are saying there was a different "agenda" being the Law in the OT and the NT, Yah is eternal His plan was always the same;

Deuteronomy 10:16, "Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and do not be stiff-necked any longer."

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."

Mattithyah 22:37-40, "Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might (Deuteronomy 6:5). This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus19:17). On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

1 Yahchanan (John) 2:3-7, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also obligated to walk exactly as He walked. Brothers, I write no new Laws to you, but the old Laws which you had from the beginning: The old Laws are the Law which you had from the beginning."

1 John 2:3-7, " And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked. Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard. ."

 

[DiscipleDave]

i do apologize that i did not read the posts in this thread but would like to comment on it nonetheless.

The Biggest difference from the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is:

To be Righteous and in good standing with God in the Old Covenant, one must obey all the commandments.
To be Righteous and in good standing with God in the New Covenant, one must LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

An example would be this. A man under the old covenant committed a transgression against God, if they stole, because there was a commandment that said "Thou shalt not Steal"
A man under the new covenant commits a transgression against God, if they steal, NOT because there is a commandment that says "Thou shalt not Steal" but because that man failed to love the person they stole from.

Under the old covenant a person is Judged by their obedience to the commandments
Under the new covenant a person is Judged by how they have LOVED ONE ANOTHER or FAILED to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

When we all stand before God on Judgement Day it is not what sins we have committed or not committed that will be judged, what is judged, is How we have LOVED ONE ANOTHER. woe to those who Fail to LOVE ONE ANOTHER.

Do you help the needy?
Do you give to the poor?
Do you clothe the naked?
Do you give to charities?
Do you help those who ask of you to help?
Do you give without expecting anything in return?
Do you loan without charging interest?
Do you help those in your community?
Do you volunteer to help the homeless?
Do you volunteer at soup kitchens?
Do you volunteer your time freely to a good cause?
Do you open up your house to those who have no place to go?
Do you pick up that hitchhiker asking you for a ride?
Do you give presents for Christmas for the less fortunate?
The list can go on and on and on.

What? you don't do any of those things? Tell me then, How have you LOVED OTHERS?

^i^

Hmmmm....Does it not say we will be judged and or rewarded for what we have done in our bodies...good or bad and by every idle word?

True. But as i said it is not the actual sins that are judged, but LOVE or the lack of LOVE. For example a person steals something from another. Many people think when that person stands before God on Judgement Day that he will have to answer for the sin of stealing because it is written "Thou shalt not steal" and everyone knows that stealing is a sin. However that is NOT what he will answer for on Judgement Day. What he will answer for is, why he failed to love the one he stole from. We are commanded to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. he FAILED. you do not steal from someone you LOVE. So he stands before God not giving account for his sin, but giving his account for why he failed to love that person he stole from. Thoughts are the same way. a hitchhiker has his thumb out asking for a ride, you take thought "could be an axe murderer" and do not help that person out. That thought will be judged as well. Or what about the homeless person on the corner, you take thought not to give to him, even though you do have enough and to spare, because he may be richer than you, or even better off than you, so you give not. Would it not have been better for you to give anyway and not judge? That is what is judged on Judgement Day, not what sins you have committed or not committed, but how you have LOVED ONE ANOTHER or FAILED to LOVE ONE ANOTHER. you do not believe me now, but blessed are those who believe me now, and change, and start LOVING ONE ANOTHER.

^i^

 

[AtonedFor]

Possibly I am misunderstanding you but, I get the feeling, like you are saying there was a different "agenda" being the Law in the OT and the NT, Yah is eternal His plan was always the same ...

Yes, the agenda in both is obedience and holiness without sinning,
and with repentance ... which is obvious to a few of us here!

However, God says the new covenant is much better (and easier)!
Because the NT believer has:
-- the new nature
-- the indwelling Holy Spirit
-- the Scriptures at hand

Butski, the churches teach ... With God's grace, you're good to go!

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes, the agenda in both is obedience and holiness without sinning,
and with repentance ... which is obvious to a few of us here!

However, God says the new covenant is much better (and easier)!
Because the NT believer has:
-- the new nature
-- the indwelling Holy Spirit
-- the Scriptures at hand

Butski, the churches teach ... With God's grace, you're good to go!

Messiah;
Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Yahchanan (John) 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned."

Peter;
1 Kepha 1:13-21, "Therefore, gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the undeserved pardon that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Yahshua Messiah. As obedient children, do not conform to the former lusts you had when you lived in ignorance; But as He Who called you is holy, so you also become holy in all your conduct; Because it is written Be holy, for I am holy. And if you call on the Father, Who, without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your sojourning here in reverence; Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver or gold, from your idolatrous way of life handed down to you by tradition from your forefathers; But with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot; Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you; Who through Him we do believe in Yahweh, Who raised Him up from the dead, and gave Him glory; that your faith and hope might be in Yahweh."

Paul;
Romans 2:4-11, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.”

 

[1joseph]

AtonedFor,

Do you agree with these three questions:

1. In the OT, God was with his chosen children Israel, that they were to try and live by His commandments, and to atone for sin by making the sacrifices as and when He instructed?
2. If an Israelite did these things, were they atoned for and would have eternal salvation in God's light?
3. In the NT, God gave a sacrifice, Yahshua Messiah, that Israel and any other peoples, who, if accept this sacrifice, would have eternal salvation in God's light?

I'm just wondering if you and Hizikyah agree on these things.

 

[1joseph]

Hizikyah,

Do you agree with these three questions:

1. In the OT, God was with his chosen children Israel, that they were to try and live by His commandments, and to atone for sin by making the sacrifices as and when He instructed?
2. If an Israelite did these things, were they atoned for and would have eternal salvation in God's light?
3. In the NT, God gave a sacrifice, Yahshua Messiah, that Israel and any other peoples, who, if accept this sacrifice, would have eternal salvation in God's light?

I'm just wondering if you and AtonedFor agree on these things.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hizikyah,

Do you agree with these three questions:

1. In the OT, God was with his chosen children Israel, that they were to try and live by His commandments, and to atone for sin by making the sacrifices as and when He instructed?
2. If an Israelite did these things, were they atoned for and would have eternal salvation in God's light?
3. In the NT, God gave a sacrifice, Yahshua Messiah, that Israel and any other peoples, who, if accept this sacrifice, would have eternal salvation in God's light?

I'm just wondering if you and AtonedFor agree on these things.

I would say yes to all three, but with a added note for clarity;

1. Yes - added note - His children Israyl had within it non-Hebrews even at the time of Exodus.

(Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Numbers 15:15-16, "One ordinance shall be for you of the congregation, and for the stranger who sojourns with you, as an ordinance forever throughout your generations. As you are, so shall the stranger be in front of Yahweh. One Law and one manner shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you."

Exodus 12:38, "And a mixed multitude of people also went up with them, as well as large droves of livestock, both flocks and herds.")

2. Yes - but it is my... personal opinion (personal opinion alert!), and I speak on this very rarely, that it was really ythe Messiah blood cleansing them the whole time but rather that was them looking forward as the great mercy had not yet been revealed.

3. Yes if they walk in Messiah, there is no claiming with lips and opposing with action and still having salvation. Other than that I agree.

Hebrews 10:26-30, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people."

 

[Hizikyah]

Addendum, the most telling part of being a part of the better covenant, is;

Yeremyah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says Yahweh: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them."


truly a part of this covenant?

 

[Chopper]

Chopper and Mitspa ...

Why waste your time with these guys? ...
they just continue to choose to ignore dozens of Scripture verses!

I.E. they want NO accountability at all for how they live their lives!

They have to be told and shown, that way at my own judgement "their blood is not on my hands".
I can't make the choice for them, they have to choose what they believe.

 

[The_Wanderer]

A believer can be disobedient, but sincerely repent, and all is forgiven.

But he can be disobedient and continue in this lifestyle and never repent, and is NOT forgiven.

This is because God did NOT create any robots ...
but He did create humans with totally free-will to do as they please.

Doesn't matter that the Holy Spirit tries to keep him in line ...
he has his free-will to ensure his freedom.

I just chose this post out of many I could have, so don't think I'm picking on you, AtonedFor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus Christ take ALL of my sins (past, present, and future) on his body at Calvary? Actually, all of my sins would have been in the future from that point in the timeline. I don't believe that Jesus Christ only took the sins I committed up to the point I would come to Him for salvation and then say, "You're on your own the rest of the way, because my blood didn't wash you clean after this point in time." I also don't believe He would think, "Even though I know you're still a weak vessel due to the wickedness of the flesh, if you mess up after this, you and I are through."

If everything were so time-dependent, those in the Old Testament would never be able to be saved, since Christ hadn't come yet. As far as I know, they were looking forward in time to Christ's sacrifice, just as we look back in time to it.
We have to remember that God is eternal and He created time but is not subject to it.

If I did nothing to earn my salvation, how can I do something to lose it? I think that if salvation were something that could be lost, no one would get into Heaven, since Satan and his minions would nail us with all sorts of temptation into sin the moment after we were saved and would not relent until they had succeeded in having us fall away.

I have a hard time swallowing the idea that God could be so cruel as to allow us the wonderful gift of salvation, yet make us with all our flaws and frailties the trustees of that salvation, knowing that we could lose it. God knows how imperfect we are and how our flesh and our emotions can cloud our thinking almost constantly. Think of how often we do things (even quite deliberately) that are inimical to our own interests because emotion gets in the way of logical thinking. Don't tell me Christians can't dig in our heels and be stubborn about our own sense of righteousness, because I know we can. Couple that with our adversary roaming around seeking whom he may devour, and the ability to lose our salvation seems even more out of character for God.

 

[Kerry]

They have to be told and shown, that way at my own judgement "their blood is not on my hands".
I can't make the choice for them, they have to choose what they believe.

WE choose, good point. We choose what we believe.

 

[Kerry]

We choose if killing people is right and we choose if preaching the gospel is right. We choose. Don't ask a muslim cause killing is all they do

 

[JGIG]

how good is good enough? what is the cut off between an obedient slave, and a disobedient slave?

And the bigger question: In Christ, is one a servant or a son?

-JGIG

 

[DiscipleDave]

I just chose this post out of many I could have, so don't think I'm picking on you, AtonedFor.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus Christ take ALL of my sins (past, present, and future) on his body at Calvary?

Past yes:

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

But present, and future NO. it is a false teaching that teaches when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord that ALL their sins that they are ever going to commit is forgiven.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, Jesus took the stripes for that persons sins that they have committed in the past, He paid the punishment for those sins that that person committed in the past. He then was crucified for those past sins so that person is made clean, righteous, just, unblameable, pure, forgiven, acceptable to God. This He only does for that person ONCE. Jesus does not go to the cross to be sacrificed over and over again ever time a believer repents of their sins. He only did that once, to forgive all that persons sins that are PAST. Any sin that is committed after a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, is on them. You will reap what you sow, if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption, and He punishes (chastises) disobedient children. Am i saying you can't be forgiven of sins after you are Saved? Heavens no. Those who Truly repent of a particular sin can be forgiven, to Truly repent of a particular sin you ask for forgiveness AND you cease to ever do that sin again. Only then is a person forgiven of a particular sin.
Judgement Day is for all those who accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Not everyone who has accepted Him, will be judged worthy to be received by Him. Judgement Day is not for the unsaved (psalms 1:5) but for all those who claim to be Christians. The hour of temptation will be when billions of Christians will reap what they have sown and suffer during the tribulation period, and great many people will fall away from the Faith at this time, because of their suffering which shall come upon them, which they Scripturally deserve, Because God is True, and His Word can't be broken. You will reap what you have sown, if you sow to the flesh you shall reap corruption of the flesh. Does that mean you become UNSAVED? Heavens NO. It is called the hour of temptation for a reason, because of your suffering you will be tempted to fall away from God, to blame God, to curse God for the suffering that has come upon you. But those who realize they deserve it (because of their past sinning, AFTER they accepted Jesus) will accept it as just punishment for their sins, and will not fall away from the Faith
When you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, Jesus took the punishment for all those sins by His stripes. Sins that you commit after you accepted Him, He does not go through the stripes again for you, But you will suffer the punishment for those sins. And i will say also it is more blessed for a person to receive punishment for their sins soon, then to store them all up for the hour of temptation, when they will all come upon that one at once. Better to receive punishments now and in this time, than to suffer them during the tribulation.

^i^

 

[The_Wanderer]

Past yes:

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins thatarepast, through the forbearance of God;

But present, and future NO. it is a false teaching that teaches when a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord that ALL their sins that they are ever going to commit is forgiven.

When a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, Jesus took the stripes for that persons sins that they have committed in the past, He paid the punishment for those sins that that person committed in the past. He then was crucified for those past sins so that person is made clean, righteous, just, unblameable, pure, forgiven, acceptable to God. This He only does for that person ONCE. Jesus does not go to the cross to be sacrificed over and over again ever time a believer repents of their sins. He only did that once, to forgive all that persons sins that are PAST. Any sin that is committed after a person accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, is on them.

So you're saying that one sin after salvation undoes that salvation and sentences you to hell. You stated it's "on them".
Either Christ died because we needed atonement for our sins or He wasted His time. If sins after salvation are imputed to our account, we must go to hell. There's nothing halfway about it here (Romans 6:23).

You will reap what you sow, if you sow to the flesh of the flesh you shall reap corruption, and He punishes (chastises) disobedient children. Am i saying you can't be forgiven of sins after you are Saved? Heavens no. Those who Truly repent of a particular sin can be forgiven, to Truly repent of a particular sin you ask for forgiveness AND you cease to ever do that sin again. Only then is a person forgiven of a particular sin.

But you just said previously that any sin after salvation is on us.

Judgement Day is for all those who accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord. Not everyone who has accepted Him, will be judged worthy to be received by Him. Judgement Day is not for the unsaved (psalms 1:5) but for all those who claim to be Christians. The hour of temptation will be when billions of Christians will reap what they have sown and suffer during the tribulation period, and great many people will fall away from the Faith at this time, because of their suffering which shall come upon them, which they Scripturally deserve, Because God is True, and His Word can't be broken. You will reap what you have sown, if you sow to the flesh you shall reap corruption of the flesh. Does that mean you become UNSAVED? Heavens NO. It is called the hour of temptation for a reason, because of your suffering you will be tempted to fall away from God, to blame God, to curse God for the suffering that has come upon you. But those who realize they deserve it (because of their past sinning, AFTER they accepted Jesus) will accept it as just punishment for their sins, and will not fall away from the Faith
When you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, Jesus took the punishment for all those sins by His stripes. Sins that you commit after you accepted Him, He does not go through the stripes again for you, But you will suffer the punishment for those sins. And i will say also it is more blessed for a person to receive punishment for their sins soon, then to store them all up for the hour of temptation, when they will all come upon that one at once. Better to receive punishments now and in this time, than to suffer them during the tribulation.

^i^

Again, if I have to suffer the punishment of my sins (even one), that means spiritual death (Romans 6:23).

I'm curious what you make of Romans 4:1-8.

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The reaping of what we sow, I believe, has more to do with reaping in the flesh the sins we commit. God chastens His children, but that has nothing to do with His work on the cross. Chastening negatively affects our lives here on earth and can even shorten our lives. Christ's work had to have been the completion of the atonement of all the sins of mankind.
1 John 2:2 states, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He doesn't have to go through the stripes again, since He covered it all in one event. Did Christ not pronounce that, "It is finished" before He died? He didn't state that it was partially finished or say something like, "This is all I can do, but if any man sin after receiving atonement once for all, woe unto him since what I just accomplished does not cover that."
That sounds more like the conniving of a shady insurance company than the aims of a Righteous Creator and Redeemer.


You seem to start off by saying that salvation can be lost, since our sins after conversion are our problem to deal with, but you end by stating one cannot become unsaved and it all has to do with punishment during the Tribulation. It's a little confusing, so I'll end my rebuttal here.