Christmas

[laura_charlotte]

I beg to differ. There are many who care about these issues. I get emails and messages asking, because there are many who sincerely want to know whether christmas is Biblical or not.

Which it is not.
No reference to it in Scripture.
Never celebrated by anyone in Scripture.
No one, including Jesus or the prophets told us to celebrate it.

And people celebrate it on the wrong day.

The fact that people celebrate it despite these things is worthy of a discussion.

Precisely.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Or they should just realize no one cares about their anti-christmas zealotry and keep their opinions to themselves.

This is a bible discussion forum on a christian site. Constructive opinions are to be shared. This is where we discuss, share and educate others about God's word and things of the like, what's very relevant at the moment is Christmas and everything surrounding. There's nothing zealous about explaining why doing this for the right reasons is for the best because it stays true to the Lord.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

So very personal...

I have a few friends who wont even consider Jesus anymore because of that exact same thing. They throw it all out, "baby with the bath water"

someone approached me one day and told me, "Christmas and Easter are fake, Jesus was not even born on that day. I ignored him and then it kept popping up, so I looked into it. Found out a lot more. But its heartbreaking to think of those that fall away.

Hi, Hizikyah.

It is heartbreaking...to those of us whose hearts haven't been hardened due to SELFISHNESS, that is.

IOW, the argument for celebrating "Christ Mass" from professing Christians basically goes like this:

"Yeah, there certainly are PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to 'Christ Mass', BUT that's not why I celebrate 'Christ Mass', so I am at liberty or free to do so...YOU JUDGMENTAL LEGALIST!"

Here's what these SELFISH people fail to realize or possibly to even consider:

I Corinthians chapter 8

[1] Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
[2] And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
[3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[7] Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
[8] But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
[9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
[10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
[11] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
[12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
[13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

IOW, I suppose that all of us who profess to know Christ here realize that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" and that we can therefore rightly say:

"WHO CARES THAT THERE ARE PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES ATTACHED TO 'CHRIST MASS'...I AM NOT REFLECTING UPON ANY OF THE SAME IN MY CELEBRATION OF 'CHRIST MASS', BUT I AM ONLY REFLECTING UPON THE 'ONE GOD, THE FATHER' AND THE BIRTH OF HIS SON, THE 'LORD JESUS CHRIST'!"

I mean, on the surface, that sounds both legitimate and reasonable, doesn't it? Sure, it does. HOWEVER, such a "knowledge", IF NOT COUPLED TOGETHER WITH LOVE, only "puffs us up" IN THAT IT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HOW OUR "LIBERTIES" OR "FREEDOMS" IN CHRIST MIGHT NEGATIVELY AFFECT OTHERS...even as Paul described in what I just quoted. IOW, what about "the weak brother" and his "weak conscience"? I mean, what if somebody who is "weak in the faith" is confronted with the reality that there are PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to "Christ Mass" and the reality that Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25th? Could not such possibly "shipwreck" his faith...especially when he sees those who are "strong in the faith" partaking in the same? Yes, it could...not that too many people here seem to give a damn about the same. Furthermore, what about the unbeliever? I mean, if he/she observes MILLIONS of professing Christians celebrating a day which ORIGINATED IN PAGANISM and still has MUCH PAGANISM attached to it, why should he/she consider that said Christians are really any different than THE PAGANS? Ironically, I've recently spent about 9 years on a different forum which is comprised mostly of members who are hardcore atheists and the topic of "Christ Mass" came up multiple times there during different years. Yep, there would almost always be some well-intentioned (?) professing Christian who would come along and wish everybody there a "Merry Christmas"...only to be rebuked, and rightly so, BY THE ATHEISTS in that "Christ Mass" has so many PAGAN ORIGINS, INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to it. The aforementioned irony is that when I sided with the position of THE ATHEISTS, it actually gained me inroads with them to explain the gospel to them.

Anyhow, personally, I'm happy to see that a decent section of professing Christendom is beginning to shun the celebration of "Christ Mass" or has already done so. IOW, I'm happy to see that, like both Christ and Paul, some professing Christians actually care more about OTHERS than they do about THEMSELVES and their "liberties/freedoms".

Hey, somebody needed to say it, so it might as well be me...

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi, Hizikyah.

It is heartbreaking...to those of us whose hearts haven't been hardened due to SELFISHNESS, that is.

IOW, the argument for celebrating "Christ Mass" from professing Christians basically goes like this:

"Yeah, there certainly are PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to 'Christ Mass', BUT that's not why I celebrate 'Christ Mass', so I am at liberty or free to do so...YOU JUDGMENTAL LEGALIST!"

Here's what these SELFISH people fail to realize or possibly to even consider:

I Corinthians chapter 8

[1] Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
[2] And if any man think that he knoweth anything, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
[3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
[4] As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
[5] For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
[7] Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
[8] But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
[9] But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
[10] For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
[11] And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
[12] But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
[13] Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

IOW, I suppose that all of us who profess to know Christ here realize that "to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him" and that we can therefore rightly say:

"WHO CARES THAT THERE ARE PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES ATTACHED TO 'CHRIST MASS'...I AM NOT REFLECTING UPON ANY OF THE SAME IN MY CELEBRATION OF 'CHRIST MASS', BUT I AM ONLY REFLECTING UPON THE 'ONE GOD, THE FATHER' AND THE BIRTH OF HIS SON, THE 'LORD JESUS CHRIST'!"

I mean, on the surface, that sounds both legitimate and reasonable, doesn't it? Sure, it does. HOWEVER, such a "knowledge", IF NOT COUPLED TOGETHER WITH LOVE, only "puffs us up" IN THAT IT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT HOW OUR "LIBERTIES" OR "FREEDOMS" IN CHRIST MIGHT NEGATIVELY AFFECT OTHERS...even as Paul described in what I just quoted. IOW, what about "the weak brother" and his "weak conscience"? I mean, what if somebody who is "weak in the faith" is confronted with the reality that there are PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to "Christ Mass" and the reality that Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25th? Could not such possibly "shipwreck" his faith...especially when he sees those who are "strong in the faith" partaking in the same? Yes, it could...not that too many people here seem to give a damn about the same. Furthermore, what about the unbeliever? I mean, if he/she observes MILLIONS of professing Christians celebrating a day which ORIGINATED IN PAGANISM and still has MUCH PAGANISM attached to it, why should he/she consider that said Christians are really any different than THE PAGANS? Ironically, I've recently spent about 9 years on a different forum which is comprised mostly of members who are hardcore atheists and the topic of "Christ Mass" came up multiple times there during different years. Yep, there would almost always be some well-intentioned (?) professing Christian who would come along and wish everybody there a "Merry Christmas"...only to be rebuked, and rightly so, BY THE ATHEISTS in that "Christ Mass" has so many PAGAN ORIGINS, INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to it. The aforementioned irony is that when I sided with the position of THE ATHEISTS, it actually gained me inroads with them to explain the gospel to them.

Anyhow, personally, I'm happy to see that a decent section of professing Christendom is beginning to shun the celebration of "Christ Mass" or has already done so. IOW, I'm happy to see that, like both Christ and Paul, some professing Christians actually care more about OTHERS than they do about THEMSELVES and their "liberties/freedoms".

Hey, somebody needed to say it, so it might as well be me...

That was a deep thought out and true post, much respect.

I agree in nearly every point but I want to say, even though I did pose the view of, "what does He think"

I never really considered it like this:

"Yeah, there certainly are PAGAN ORIGINS AND PAGAN INFLUENCES AND PRACTICES attached to 'Christ Mass', BUT that's not why I celebrate 'Christ Mass', so I am at liberty or free to do so...YOU JUDGMENTAL LEGALIST!"


Which is the reality, and im not trying to be mean, im sorry if any are offended. The way my brain works I see things as clear cut, "black and white" a simple here are the facts, yet not exploring some of the things you mention... so I humbly thank you for that post.

 

[JimmieD]

The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume II (1943-1973),
‘‘In the Roman world, the Saturnalia was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25th was alsoregarded as the birth date of the Iranian Mystery god, Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year houses were decorated with greenery and lights and gifts were given to children.To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites... Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian.’’

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a primary source. Something like Suetonius, Josephus, Livy, Tacitus, Pliny, Dio Cassius, ....etc would be primary sources. Who knows where Britannica gets it's information - but it's not from an actual historical sources as far as I can tell.

The argument from Chopper was that Christmas originated from Saturnalia. That has yet to be substantiated - anywhere.

It's not my fault if your source doesn't cite primary sources. Maybe you should be more careful in the future?

 

[Human]

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a primary source. Something like Suetonius, Josephus, Livy, Tacitus, Pliny, Dio Cassius, ....etc would be primary sources. Who knows where Britannica gets it's information - but it's not from an actual historical sources as far as I can tell.

The argument from Chopper was that Christmas originated from Saturnalia. That has yet to be substantiated - anywhere.

It's not my fault if your source doesn't cite primary sources. Maybe you should be more careful in the future?

Encyclopedia Britannica isn't a primary source, no, but it is a compilation of information from some of the most expert specialists from around the world in their fields, who all do generally cite their primary sources. It is a reliable source in almost all academic circles.

 

[john832]

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a primary source. Something like Suetonius, Josephus, Livy, Tacitus, Pliny, Dio Cassius, ....etc would be primary sources. Who knows where Britannica gets it's information - but it's not from an actual historical sources as far as I can tell.

The argument from Chopper was that Christmas originated from Saturnalia. That has yet to be substantiated - anywhere.

It's not my fault if your source doesn't cite primary sources. Maybe you should be more careful in the future?

Nice opinion. Who knows where you get your information.

 

[john832]

Encyclopedia Britannica isn't a primary source, no, but it is a compilation of information from some of the most expert specialists from around the world in their fields, who all do generally cite their primary sources. It is a reliable source in almost all academic circles.

But if it doesn't say what you want it to say...

Just sayin...

 

[Human]

But if it doesn't say what you want it to say...

Just sayin...

Deleted ...

 

[john832]

Deleted ...

What happened? Did you get what my post was aimed at? Just wonderin...

 

[laura_charlotte]

This crap still hasn't been flushed? Yuck!

*presses down the button*

Bombs away!

It is ironic, that you profess to be a christian, yet this is the way you treat someone else's thread in a bible discussion forum on a christian site. I find your post sad and disgusting. I have never gone into a thread you have started or replied to any post you have made in such a derogatory manner. I have always responded to you the way i wish to be responded to.

For you then to start an 'anti christmas bashing' thread after you finish posting here can denigrate this thread even further. My post, if you did read it at all and acknowledged it's true meaning does not bash Christmas in the least.

"I don't believe there is anything wrong with giving gifts to people, having a meal, and remembering Jesus birth. But as we do it - let's not give any special reverence to the day itself, or to the pagan elements practiced by those around us (Christmas tree, Santa etc.)"


It fairly, diplomatically explores the origins, the history and how and why we should celebrate. I hope you learn to exercise the same kind of respect Jesus had for people that He disagreed with, instead of giving your opinion a platform for the enemy.

I've seen this 'anti christmas bashing' thread and all the good will and 'peace' those who posted professed to keep.

Please guys, if you want to discuss this, move on to the plenty of Christmas bashing threads.
We are trying to have peace on this one.

I just wish that you and those same people who replied to my thread, where I certainly did not bash Christmas exercised the same amount of good will and peaceful attitude here too. That in itself would've been most pleasing to God and a true celebration of Him.



Instead I've had sarcasm, jeering and abuse thrown at me in this thread with absolutely no provocation at all from me and certainly not from my original post, provided it's read and understood in full, nothing bashing about it.


To those who are part of that thread, and you claim that Jesus is the reason for the season - no better place to put that into practice than online in how you treat your fellow brother or sister in Christ. THAT'S what would truly make Jesus heart warm not just this season but all year round.

 

[JimmieD]

Encyclopedia Britannica isn't a primary source, no, but it is a compilation of information from some of the most expert specialists from around the world in their fields, who all do generally cite their primary sources. It is a reliable source in almost all academic circles.

So now if someone could just cite the primary sources, that would be great.

And I don't know any peer reviewed academic work that cites Encyclopedia Britannica as their primary source. I suppose college freshmen try to cite encyclopedias, at least mine did, but at some point in an academic progression, if you make historical claims you have to cite primary sources or peer reviewed work (that itself can be traced to primary sources) to avoid mistakes, arbitrariness, fictitious claims, and intellectual laziness.

 

[JimmieD]

Nice opinion. Who knows where you get your information.

Which opinion was that? The one about demanding a historical claim be backed by some sort of primary source? Sure, we can call that an opinion, and if you don't utilize a primary source to justify your claims, then I will say you're just making it up.

 

[Hizikyah]

The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume II (1943-1973),
‘‘In the Roman world, the Saturnalia was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25th was alsoregarded as the birth date of the Iranian Mystery god, Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year houses were decorated with greenery and lights and gifts were given to children.To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites... Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian.’’

Encyclopedia Britannica is not a primary source. Something like Suetonius, Josephus, Livy, Tacitus, Pliny, Dio Cassius, ....etc would be primary sources. Who knows where Britannica gets it's information - but it's not from an actual historical sources as far as I can tell.

The argument from Chopper was that Christmas originated from Saturnalia. That has yet to be substantiated - anywhere.

It's not my fault if your source doesn't cite primary sources. Maybe you should be more careful in the future?

L

O

L


I have to be silly to out this in perspective.

I bet you the sun comes up tomorrow.

I bet you it does not.

Next morning the sun rises.... well the sun rose but it didn't really rise.

LOL

The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume II (1943-1973),
‘‘In the Roman world, the Saturnalia was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25th

 

[JimmieD]

The Encyclopedia Britannica, Volume II (1943-1973),
‘‘In the Roman world, the Saturnalia was a time of merrymaking and exchanging of gifts. December 25th

So you don't have a primary source. Of course, I already knew this. I also know where you would end up if you were to try to find primary sources connecting Christianity to Saturnalia. After we pull out all the primary sources, the argument is going to end with me accusing the "Christmas-is-Saturnalia" crowd of making it all up - there is no connection.

 

[Hizikyah]

So you don't have a primary source. Of course, I already knew this. I also know where you would end up if you were to try to find primary sources connecting Christianity to Saturnalia. After we pull out all the primary sources, the argument is going to end with me accusing the "Christmas-is-Saturnalia" crowd of making it all up - there is no connection.

I don't, only have the most reliable and well know Encyclopedia producer in the history of the world say it is so. The writers of the Britannica articles are supposed scholars and professors...

" Encyclopedia Britannica: It has a real editorial staff, and high quality articles. It is, however, a general encyclopedia, and so its purpose is to meet the needs of a general audience, not a specialist audience."




And insurmountable evidence that the day breeds materialism, something the Messiah spoke against. Ohh and lying to ones children is part of the "fun" too, soo there is another strike against this man made celebration.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Who's upset? I was just pointing out that people have already said (about three hundred times) all the points that have been mentioned in this thread to date.

Have fun scrimshawing.

Have you actually read my post in full? If you had not only read it and comprehended it in full, you'd would acknowledge quite fairly that there is no 'christmas bashing' and just in the first three things that you linked, my points weren't covered at all, and certainly not in the in-depth discussion that my post has facilitated throughout this thread, and that was exactly my aim.

As i've said before, just typing in the word 'christmas' in a search bar does absolutely nothing for those who want to conduct an in-depth search and understanding on the issue that examines it from a historical and educative point of view. Something that's
current and spells out more than a picture, a question or a random scripture is extremely helpful for non believers and believers alike.

If you disagree with the argument itself, you are more than welcome to state why with sources. However please do not come into this thread in an emotionally targeting manner that really isn't fair or helpful to the original post at all. Thankyou.

 

[Tintin]

Laura, I didn't start my thread in reference to this thread of yours but I began it in reference to all of the anti-Christmas type threads that have appeared and still appear on CC. People are going to disagree with you, that's okay, but you seem to take this all very personally. Your identity is not tied to this thread or any other thread, but to Christ Himself.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Laura, I didn't start my thread in reference to this thread of yours but I began it in reference to all of the anti-Christmas type threads that have appeared and still appear on CC. People are going to disagree with you, that's okay, but you seem to take this all very personally. Your identity is not tied to this thread or any other thread, but to Christ Himself.

I wasn't the one who took anything personally at all. I actually find you and your camp's reaction and every post you've 'liked' from talking about flushing it down the toilet, to you like a post wishing me happy "scrimshawing". Also the thread you started is also indicative of this.

I have never said i have a problem with people disagreeing with any of my points, so you don't need to reassure me. I'm not exactly sure how much reading you've done throughout the entire thread, but I have stated the complete opposite. What I have encouraged based on everything i've read if for those people who respond in a questionable manner to read and comprehend my post in full and they would come out the other end seeing that it's not a christmas bashing thread at all.


Carrying on in the manner that you have, as well as others, i wouldn't call disagreeing with a post, i don't think it's constructive, it doesn't acknowledge what i've written and detracts from the genuine message of the original post in a way that doesn't allow Christ to shine through whatsoever.

When you carry on the way you do and support the posts that you have, it's you that not only has taken things in the wrong way but carried on in something other than a Christ centered manner. I hope you examine the true meaning of my post, what it acknowledges and your reactions to it and see how isn't always celebrating who Jesus is and how it can help believers and non believers alike.

 

[laura_charlotte]

but you seem to take this all very personally. Your identity is not tied to this thread or any other thread, but to Christ Himself.

Again, I never started an anti christmas bashing thread, that speaks volumes about taking things personally and out of perspective unto itself. That aside, I know who i am in Christ, and i hope you and others do as well, i hope you remember that Christ like image with what you post and support on this christian site.