Christmas

[Hizikyah]

Laura, I didn't start my thread in reference to this thread of yours but I began it in reference to all of the anti-Christmas type threads that have appeared and still appear on CC. People are going to disagree with you, that's okay, but you seem to take this all very personally. Your identity is not tied to this thread or any other thread, but to Christ Himself.

Tintin, YOU started this thread

[h=3]All I want for Christmas are NO MORE 'Christmas is Evil' Threads[/h]

[h=3]All I want for Christmas are NO MORE 'Christmas is Evil' Threads[/h]

 

[laura_charlotte]

The OP was to some degree incorrect. Christmas did not originate as a pagan holiday, though that's not to say that it didn't subsume some pagan elements over the centuries.

thanks for the feedback, i'll study it further.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I have never said i have a problem with people disagreeing with any of my points, so you don't need to reassure me.

Hi, laura.

As you ought to already be aware of by now, I don't celebrate "Christ Mass" for a whole host of different reasons myself. That being said, however, there is error in your opening post and I hope that you will consider shunning the same in the future. For example, in your OP, you claimed:

Nimrod's birthday was also celebrated on December 25th by many. According to the ancient Babylonians, Semiramis (who was believed to be both Nimrods mother and wife - also known as Astarte, Asherah, Ashtoreth, Isis, Ishtar and Easter) made the claim that after Nimrod died, an evergreen tree sprang up overnight from a dead tree stump. Semiramis claimed that Nimrod visited the evergreen tree and left gifts each year on the anniversary of his birth (December 25th). These beliefs were in circulation well before Jesus entered the scene of human history. Does this sound familiar?

Jeremiah - one of Gods prophets, who lived between 600-500 BC wrote of these pagan rituals saying (Jeremiah 10);

Learn not the way of the nations, nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens because the nations are dismayed at them, for the customs of the peoples are vanity. A tree from the forest is cut down and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so that it cannot move.​

Again, Jeremiah was NOT writing about a forerunner of the "Christmas tree" here. No, rather, he was clearly writing about idols which were regularly overlaid with either silver or gold even as I previously documented here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104144-christmas-9.html#post1812689

As such, I hope that you'll adjust your own beliefs accordingly. After all, no matter how noble or good our intentions might be, we should always strive to know the truth of a certaintly ourselves and then to also share the same with others. IOW, the spreading of false information is really to nobody's benefit at all...except for maybe Satan's.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Hi, laura.

As you ought to already be aware of by now, I don't celebrate "Christ Mass" for a whole host of different reasons myself. That being said, however, there is error in your opening post and I hope that you will consider shunning the same in the future. For example, in your OP, you claimed:


Again, Jeremiah was NOT writing about a forerunner of the "Christmas tree" here. No, rather, he was clearly writing about idols which were regularly overlaid with either silver or gold even as I previously documented here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/104144-christmas-9.html#post1812689

As such, I hope that you'll adjust your own beliefs accordingly. After all, no matter how noble or good our intentions might be, we should always strive to know the truth of a certaintly ourselves and then to also share the same with others. IOW, the spreading of false information is really to nobody's benefit at all...except for maybe Satan's.

ok, i'll read into it further, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[kaylagrl]

Silent Night

Silent night, Holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon virgin, mother and child
Holy infant, tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace,
Sleep in heavenly peace.
Silent night, Holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace,
Jesus, Lord at thy birth
Jesus, Lord at thy birth.
Silent night, Holy night
Shepherds quake, at the sight
Glories stream from heaven above
Heavenly, hosts sing Hallelujah.
Christ the Savior is born,
Christ the Savior is born.



O Holy Night

O Holy night, the stars are brightly shining
It is the night of our dear Savior's birth
Long lay the world in sin and error pining
'Til He appeared and the soul felt its worth
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn
Fall on your knees

O hear the angel voices
O night divine!
O night when Christ was born
O night divine!
O night, O night divine!

[Choir:]
Truly He taught us to love one another,
His law is love and His gospel is peace.
Chains He shall break, for the slave is our brother.

And in His name, all oppression shall cease

Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we
Let all within us praise His holy name
Christ is the Lord!
Their name forever praise we

Noel, Noel
O night, O night divine
Noel, Noel
O night, O night divine
Noel, Noel
O night, O holy night​

O Little Town of Bethlehem

O little town of Bethlehem,
How still we see thee lie.
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep
The silent stars go by;
Yet in thy dark streets shineth
The everlasting Light.
The hopes and fears of all the years
Are met in thee tonight.



For Christ is born of Mary,
And, gathered all above
While mortals sleep, the angels keep
Their watch of wond'ring love.
O morning stars, together
Proclaim the holy birth,
And praises sing to God the King,
And peace to men on earth.

How silently, how silently
The wondrous gift is giv'n!
So God imparts to human hearts
The blessings of his heav'n.
No ear may hear his coming;
But in this world of sin,
Where meek souls will receive him, still
The dear Christ enters in.



Joy To The World

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the world, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.



Hark the Herald Angels Sing


Hark the herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!
Peace on earth and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled"
Joyful, all ye nations rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With the angelic host proclaim:
"Christ is born in Bethlehem"
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Son of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings
Ris'n with healing in His wings
Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"




How anyone can call Christmas anti-Christian is so far beyond me I cannot fathom it.Please read the underlined portions of these songs.THIS is what is meant by Christmas. The angels sang!! Do not tell me Christs birth is not cause for celebration! glory to the newborn KING. If you dont shout hallelujah at God and sinners reconciled I just dont know.To say that someone who celebrates Christmas is aligned with pagans and not a true Christian then you havent understood in your heart what the birth of the Christ child really meant to the world.For without his birth there is no cross.And finally the song I learned at my mothers knee,and my gandmothers.It was as a child I learned of Jesus in a simple,easily understandable way because of this song as many children do....




Away in A Manger

Away in a manger,
No crib for His bed
The little Lord Jesus
Laid down His sweet head

The stars in the bright sky
Looked down where He lay
The little Lord Jesus
Asleep on the hay

The cattle are lowing
The poor Baby wakes
But little Lord Jesus
No crying He makes

I love Thee, Lord Jesus
Look down from the sky
And stay by my side,
'Til morning is nigh.

Be near me, Lord Jesus,
I ask Thee to stay
Close by me forever
And love me I pray

Bless all the dear children
In Thy tender care
And take us to heaven
To live with Thee there.

 

[laura_charlotte]

Do not tell me Christs birth is not cause for celebration!

Again, that's the complete opposite of the original post's meaning.

Pagan Origins

I don't believe there is anything wrong with giving gifts to people, having a meal, and remembering Jesus birth. But as we do it - let's not give any special reverence to the day itself, or to the pagan elements practiced by those around us (Christmas tree, Santa etc.)

 

[JimmieD]

I don't, only have the most reliable and well know Encyclopedia producer in the history of the world say it is so. The writers of the Britannica articles are supposed scholars and professors...

I couldn't agree with their own quote more:

" Encyclopedia Britannica: It has a real editorial staff, and high quality articles. It is, however, a general encyclopedia, and so its purpose is to meet the needs of a general audience, not a specialist audience."

So, back to finding any actual evidence that Saturnalia was the origin of Christmas. It's not my fault your source doesn't cite anything. Do you have any historical sources for consideration? If not, then it appears you're just going with some sort of tradition you've heard from some other people or you're just making it up.

 

[Hizikyah]

I couldn't agree with their own quote more:



So, back to finding any actual evidence that Saturnalia was the origin of Christmas. It's not my fault your source doesn't cite anything. Do you have any historical sources for consideration? If not, then it appears you're just going with some sort of tradition you've heard from some other people or you're just making it up.

Seems your not looking for truth, that post said 110 nobel peace prize winners contributed. There is not a more reliable encyclopedia in the world.

But with the wave of a hand hundreds of peoples legit documentation work is dismissed...

The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Revised Edition, by Zondervan Publishing:

CHRISTIAN YEAR, THE. The early Christians who were mainly Jews were used not only to keeping one day in the week as separate but also to marking the year with certain religious festivals, notably Passover, Tabernacles, and Pentecost. From early times Christians kept a commemoration of Christ’s resurrection. This was held at Passover time and was finally fixed on the Sunday following Passover. Pentecost was then celebrated at the appropriate time; the fifty days between the two were days of joy and rejoicing. The choice of 25 December (in the East, 6 January) for the birth of Christ is almost certainly because that day was the great pagan day of honor to the sun, and in Rome in the fourth century it was transformed into a Christian festival. CHRISTMAS. The English name for the Feast of the Nativity of Christ kept on 25 December by the Western Church. There is no evidence of a Feast of the Nativity before the fourth century, except possibly among the Basilidians. Theearliestmentionof25 December is in the Philocalian Calendar, compiledin354, which cites its observance in Rome in 336. It would not appear to have been celebrated in Antioch until approximately 375. By380 it was being observed in Constantinople, and by 430 in Alexandria. It was still unknown in Jerusalem early in the fifth century__it was not until the sixth century that the Nativity was finally detached from 6 January and celebrated on 25 December. By the middle of the fifth century it was being gradually observed throughout East and West. The Armenians still observe 6 January, the closely related Feast of the Epiphany, as Christmas Day. There is no authoritative historical evidence as to the day or month of Christ’s birth in Jerusalem. 25 December was the date of a Roman pagan festival inaugurated in 274 as the birth day of the unconquered sun which at the winter solstice begins again to show an increase in light. Sometime before 336 the Church in Rome, unable to stamp out this pagan festival, spiritualized it as the Feast of the Nativity of the Sun of Righteousness. Christmas in the Eastern Church celebrates the birth of Christ together with the visit of the shepherds and the adoration o fthe wise men. In the Western Church the adoration of the Magi is attached to Epiphany on 6 January. In the Roman Catholic Church three masses are usually said to symbolize the birth of Christ eternally in the bosom of the Father, from the womb of Mary and mystically in the soul of the faithful. The traditional customs associated with Christmas have been derived from several sources. The merrymaking and the exchange of presents find their origin in the Roman Saturnalia festival (17-24 December), and the greenery and lights come from the Kalends of January (1 January, the Roman New Year) with its solar associations. The Germano-Celtic Yule rites introduced the tradition of feasting and fellowship. In the USA (and in England during the Commonwealth) Christian celebrations were at first suppressed by the Puritans, who objected to their pagan origins. Since the nineteenth century the celebration of Christmas has become increasingly popular.

 

[kaylagrl]

Again, that's the complete opposite of the original post's meaning.

My bad,too stinking many Christmas threads.Im cross eyed.Apologies to the OP

 

[kaylagrl]

My bad,too stinking many Christmas threads.Im cross eyed.Apologies to the OP

Oops I has the dumbs tonite. My apologies to you,the OP of the thread.

 

[Tintin]

I didn't create the other thread because I'm insecure or some such rubbish. I did it because the anti-Christmas threads are taking over CC and we needed a positive thread or two about Christmas. A truthful thread with joy and happiness, if you will.

 

[laura_charlotte]

My bad,too stinking many Christmas threads.Im cross eyed.Apologies to the OP

You're completely fine, i appreciate your sentiment, thankyou for the hymns.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Silent Night

Silent night, Holy night
All is calm, all is bright
Round yon virgin, mother and child
Holy infant, tender and mild
Sleep in heavenly peace,
Sleep in heavenly peace.
Silent night, Holy night
Son of God, love's pure light
Radiant beams from thy holy face
With the dawn of redeeming grace,
Jesus, Lord at thy birth
Jesus, Lord at thy birth.
Silent night, Holy night
Shepherds quake, at the sight
Glories stream from heaven above
Heavenly, hosts sing Hallelujah.
Christ the Savior is born,
Christ the Savior is born.



O Holy Night

O Holy night, the stars are brightly shining
It is the night of our dear Savior's birth
Long lay the world in sin and error pining
'Til He appeared and the soul felt its worth
A thrill of hope the weary world rejoices
For yonder breaks a new and glorious morn
Fall on your knees

O hear the angel voices
O night divine!
O night when Christ was born
O night divine!
O night, O night divine!

[Choir:]
Truly He taught us to love one another,
His law is love and His gospel is peace.
Chains He shall break, for the slave is our brother.

And in His name, all oppression shall cease

Sweet hymns of joy in grateful chorus raise we
Let all within us praise His holy name
Christ is the Lord!
Their name forever praise we

Noel, Noel
O night, O night divine
Noel, Noel
O night, O night divine
Noel, Noel
O night, O holy night​

O Little Town of Bethlehem

O little town of Bethlehem,
How still we see thee lie.
Above thy deep and dreamless sleep
The silent stars go by;
Yet in thy dark streets shineth
The everlasting Light.
The hopes and fears of all the years
Are met in thee tonight.



For Christ is born of Mary,
And, gathered all above
While mortals sleep, the angels keep
Their watch of wond'ring love.
O morning stars, together
Proclaim the holy birth,
And praises sing to God the King,
And peace to men on earth.

How silently, how silently
The wondrous gift is giv'n!
So God imparts to human hearts
The blessings of his heav'n.
No ear may hear his coming;
But in this world of sin,
Where meek souls will receive him, still
The dear Christ enters in.



Joy To The World

Joy to the world, the Lord is come!
Let earth receive her King;
Let every heart prepare Him room,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven and nature sing,
And Heaven, and Heaven, and nature sing.

Joy to the world, the Savior reigns!
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat, the sounding joy.

No more let sins and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as, the curse is found.

He rules the world with truth and grace,
And makes the nations prove
The glories of His righteousness,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders of His love,
And wonders, wonders, of His love.



Hark the Herald Angels Sing


Hark the herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!
Peace on earth and mercy mild
God and sinners reconciled"
Joyful, all ye nations rise
Join the triumph of the skies
With the angelic host proclaim:
"Christ is born in Bethlehem"
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Christ by highest heav'n adored
Christ the everlasting Lord!
Late in time behold Him come
Offspring of a Virgin's womb
Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
Hail the incarnate Deity
Pleased as man with man to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"

Hail the heav'n-born Prince of Peace!
Hail the Son of Righteousness!
Light and life to all He brings
Ris'n with healing in His wings
Mild He lays His glory by
Born that man no more may die
Born to raise the sons of earth
Born to give them second birth
Hark! The herald angels sing
"Glory to the newborn King!"




How anyone can call Christmas anti-Christian is so far beyond me I cannot fathom it.Please read the underlined portions of these songs.THIS is what is meant by Christmas. The angels sang!! Do not tell me Christs birth is not cause for celebration! glory to the newborn KING. If you dont shout hallelujah at God and sinners reconciled I just dont know.To say that someone who celebrates Christmas is aligned with pagans and not a true Christian then you havent understood in your heart what the birth of the Christ child really meant to the world.For without his birth there is no cross.And finally the song I learned at my mothers knee,and my gandmothers.It was as a child I learned of Jesus in a simple,easily understandable way because of this song as many children do....




Away in A Manger

Away in a manger,
No crib for His bed
The little Lord Jesus
Laid down His sweet head

The stars in the bright sky
Looked down where He lay
The little Lord Jesus
Asleep on the hay

The cattle are lowing
The poor Baby wakes
But little Lord Jesus
No crying He makes

I love Thee, Lord Jesus
Look down from the sky
And stay by my side,
'Til morning is nigh.

Be near me, Lord Jesus,
I ask Thee to stay
Close by me forever
And love me I pray

Bless all the dear children
In Thy tender care
And take us to heaven
To live with Thee there.

Although I don't celebrate "Christ Mass", I do listen to and sing some of those songs and others like them year round. IOW, I have no problem whatsoever with anybody celebrating or rejoicing in Christ's birth, even as I regularly celebrate and rejoice in the same myself, but I do have a major problem with "Christ Mass" itself and with the timing of it. Anyhow, here is one of my all time favorite songs in relation to Christ's birth...but I do sing "Remember Christ our Savior was born ONE BLESSED DAY" in place of "Remember Christ our Savior was born ON CHRISTMAS DAY" while listening to it/singing it myself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTACntEL7ls

 

[john832]

So you don't have a primary source. Of course, I already knew this. I also know where you would end up if you were to try to find primary sources connecting Christianity to Saturnalia. After we pull out all the primary sources, the argument is going to end with me accusing the "Christmas-is-Saturnalia" crowd of making it all up - there is no connection.

I'm just curious, are your eyes brown?

 

[blue_ladybug]

I'm just curious, are your eyes brown?

​actually they're blue with yellow flecks in them..lol.. and they turn green when im angry..kinda like the incredible hulk..lol jk

 

[laura_charlotte]

Christmas must be soon! I can tell because its another one of these "Christmas is pagan" threads, like we really need ANOTHER one.

I'm sure you're aware of the liturgical calandar and this Christmas is approaching.


Without appearing to read and comprehend the post in its entirety and take something away from it, it is sadly generalised and lumped into a category where you take nothing away from it. This is what happens, when someone doesn't read and understand an original post and instead, especially in the bible discussion forum, sadly choses sarcasm over an educated response which can help lead non believers to Christ or teach believers something that they may not have realised on their journey.

 

[laura_charlotte]

tourist--
Might I suggest, with your pull around CC, that you start a "The Ultimate Christmas Bashing Bump Thread" ...and maybe the first 5-6 posts can be the cliche responses to those Christmas type threads? That way no one can start a new one, we bump it until Christmas is over, and it will save anyone (like me) the embarrassment of starting a new one
.......and everyone the embarrassment of wasting their time posting " oh no, not this thread again..."

I'm not embarrassed in the least. I feel sorry for those who think they have nothing new to learn and don't appear to read the entire post and walk away with new knowledge or don't contribute to a discussion positively. There was nothing Christmas bashing about my post in the least, which leads me to believe, that you and others who claim are embarrassed to waste their time posting, haven't read the op at all. I would encourage you to read in full and contribute constructively to a post that delights in people celebrating the birth of our lord Jesus, our saviour, but also encourages others to look at other elements that are celebrated yet do not have a biblical basis and have lost sight of the true meaning of the season.

It's very relevant at this time of year as it is at any other time, issues are abound in christianity and the topics are going to be covered by one and all on here and beyond. I could encourage constructive, well read and thought out responses from all posters.

 

[JimmieD]

Seems your not looking for truth, that post said 110 nobel peace prize winners contributed. There is not a more reliable encyclopedia in the world.

But with the wave of a hand hundreds of peoples legit documentation work is dismissed...

The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Revised Edition, by Zondervan Publishing:

CHRISTIAN YEAR, THE. The early Christians who were mainly Jews were used not only to keeping one day in the week as separate but also to marking the year with certain religious festivals, notably Passover, Tabernacles, and Pentecost. From early times Christians kept a commemoration of Christ’s resurrection. This was held at Passover time and was finally fixed on the Sunday following Passover. Pentecost was then celebrated at the appropriate time; the fifty days between the two were days of joy and rejoicing. The choice of 25 December (in the East, 6 January) for the birth of Christ is almost certainly because that day was the great pagan day of honor to the sun, and in Rome in the fourth century it was transformed into a Christian festival. CHRISTMAS. The English name for the Feast of the Nativity of Christ kept on 25 December by the Western Church. There is no evidence of a Feast of the Nativity before the fourth century, except possibly among the Basilidians. Theearliestmentionof25 December is in the Philocalian Calendar, compiledin354, which cites its observance in Rome in 336. It would not appear to have been celebrated in Antioch until approximately 375. By380 it was being observed in Constantinople, and by 430 in Alexandria. It was still unknown in Jerusalem early in the fifth century__it was not until the sixth century that the Nativity was finally detached from 6 January and celebrated on 25 December. By the middle of the fifth century it was being gradually observed throughout East and West. The Armenians still observe 6 January, the closely related Feast of the Epiphany, as Christmas Day. There is no authoritative historical evidence as to the day or month of Christ’s birth in Jerusalem. 25 December was the date of a Roman pagan festival inaugurated in 274 as the birth day of the unconquered sun which at the winter solstice begins again to show an increase in light. Sometime before 336 the Church in Rome, unable to stamp out this pagan festival, spiritualized it as the Feast of the Nativity of the Sun of Righteousness. Christmas in the Eastern Church celebrates the birth of Christ together with the visit of the shepherds and the adoration o fthe wise men. In the Western Church the adoration of the Magi is attached to Epiphany on 6 January. In the Roman Catholic Church three masses are usually said to symbolize the birth of Christ eternally in the bosom of the Father, from the womb of Mary and mystically in the soul of the faithful. The traditional customs associated with Christmas have been derived from several sources. The merrymaking and the exchange of presents find their origin in the Roman Saturnalia festival (17-24 December), and the greenery and lights come from the Kalends of January (1 January, the Roman New Year) with its solar associations. The Germano-Celtic Yule rites introduced the tradition of feasting and fellowship. In the USA (and in England during the Commonwealth) Christian celebrations were at first suppressed by the Puritans, who objected to their pagan origins. Since the nineteenth century the celebration of Christmas has become increasingly popular.

(1) Where are the actual sources? Where are the citations of primary sources? At least someone has finally mentioned the Philocalian calendar.

(2) Your new article has conflated Sol Invictus and Saturnalia. At this point you are introducing more problems than you can handle. At least with Saturnalia the time was somewhat close to 25 Dec. Sol Invictus, on the other hand, is never connected with 25 Dec in any source. It appears the original date for Sol Invictus was probably in August, based on the dedication of a couple of key temples of Sol. Even when Sol Invictus was celebrated, it was every 4 years, not annually.

(3) Your article never explains the connection between Sol Invictus and 6 Jan. The 6 Jan date is even further away from Saturnalia's date (17 Dec). Where did this date come from? Your article doesn't know. The earliest mention of 6 Jan was in Clement of Alexandria - long before Aurelian introduced Sol Invictus celebrations in AD 274. A serious error by your article.

(4) The earliest mention of 25 Dec is in some manuscripts of Hippolytus, not the Philocalian Calendar.

(5) Macrobius and Dio Cassius say Saturnalia only ran through 23 Dec, not 24 Dec as your article claims. It's almost as if he knows that the dates of Saturnalia weren't actually connected to Christmas. And the feast running through 23 Dec was only added over time. The original date was just 17 Dec. Augustus and Caligula later expanded the celebration to include more days. So, because your article hasn't checked the sources, which are easily available, it makes mistakes.

Your article has some gaping holes and obvious problems. I guess you're fine with this. This is what happens when the author hasn't done due diligence in checking sources.

I don't know if you just don't know how to conduct research, if you're being lazy, if you've succumbed to confirmation bias, or if you realize what the historical sources actually say and ignore them for some other reason.

 

[laura_charlotte]

To all who contributed constructively to this thread, that help to further the understanding of believers and non believers alike, i'm grateful.

 

[Hizikyah]

Seems your not looking for truth, that post said 110 nobel peace prize winners contributed. There is not a more reliable encyclopedia in the world.

But with the wave of a hand hundreds of peoples legit documentation work is dismissed...

The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Revised Edition, by Zondervan Publishing:

CHRISTIAN YEAR, THE. The early Christians who were mainly Jews were used not only to keeping one day in the week as separate but also to marking the year with certain religious festivals, notably Passover, Tabernacles, and Pentecost. From early times Christians kept a commemoration of Christ’s resurrection. This was held at Passover time and was finally fixed on the Sunday following Passover. Pentecost was then celebrated at the appropriate time; the fifty days between the two were days of joy and rejoicing. The choice of 25 December (in the East, 6 January) for the birth of Christ is almost certainly because that day was the great pagan day of honor to the sun, and in Rome in the fourth century it was transformed into a Christian festival. CHRISTMAS. The English name for the Feast of the Nativity of Christ kept on 25 December by the Western Church. There is no evidence of a Feast of the Nativity before the fourth century, except possibly among the Basilidians. Theearliestmentionof25 December is in the Philocalian Calendar, compiledin354, which cites its observance in Rome in 336. It would not appear to have been celebrated in Antioch until approximately 375. By380 it was being observed in Constantinople, and by 430 in Alexandria. It was still unknown in Jerusalem early in the fifth century__it was not until the sixth century that the Nativity was finally detached from 6 January and celebrated on 25 December. By the middle of the fifth century it was being gradually observed throughout East and West. The Armenians still observe 6 January, the closely related Feast of the Epiphany, as Christmas Day. There is no authoritative historical evidence as to the day or month of Christ’s birth in Jerusalem. 25 December was the date of a Roman pagan festival inaugurated in 274 as the birth day of the unconquered sun which at the winter solstice begins again to show an increase in light. Sometime before 336 the Church in Rome, unable to stamp out this pagan festival, spiritualized it as the Feast of the Nativity of the Sun of Righteousness. Christmas in the Eastern Church celebrates the birth of Christ together with the visit of the shepherds and the adoration o fthe wise men. In the Western Church the adoration of the Magi is attached to Epiphany on 6 January. In the Roman Catholic Church three masses are usually said to symbolize the birth of Christ eternally in the bosom of the Father, from the womb of Mary and mystically in the soul of the faithful. The traditional customs associated with Christmas have been derived from several sources. The merrymaking and the exchange of presents find their origin in the Roman Saturnalia festival (17-24 December), and the greenery and lights come from the Kalends of January (1 January, the Roman New Year) with its solar associations. The Germano-Celtic Yule rites introduced the tradition of feasting and fellowship. In the USA (and in England during the Commonwealth) Christian celebrations were at first suppressed by the Puritans, who objected to their pagan origins. Since the nineteenth century the celebration of Christmas has become increasingly popular.

(1) Where are the actual sources?

If you buy these book I quoted and look in the back, there will be a bibliography, HUNDRENDS of relaible sources are used for Encyclopedia Britannica and Zondervan's Dictionary of the Christian Church.