What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[eternally-gratefull]

No He did not...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Satan began the "immortal soul" false doctrine in the garden and man has believed him instead of God ever since...

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Adam died the day he ate the tree.

How do we know?

The things of God are foolishness to those who are not his (spiritually dead)

Adam tried to hide from God. How can you hide from god. It is foolish to think of an omniscient omnipresent being.

Adam tried to lie to God. (foolish to think God did not know what really happened. when he was not there)

He tried to blame someone else for his sin. (foolish to think God can read your mind)

either way, non of the verses you posted prove a consious soul will ever cease. Nice try though.

 

[Jason0047]

"a good fair and loving explanation for eternal torment..."

it's christmas
doors Put.
love takes life totally serious. life Is Totally Serious And Love Knows

but it's christmas

yo there was "maximum warfare" against life.

Yes, it's so good to talk about how the wicked will suffer for all eternity this Christmas day. Let's share that false fact with the ones you love this holiday season to make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Uuuuh, like... no.

In other words, folks know ECT is wrong deep down. But they just don't care. It is so ingrained into their thinking of God that they cannot think of God in any other way. It is a false doctrine of making God look bad that is shrouded in mystery and based off a few verses taken out of context (All while ignoring many good passages that talk about the destruction of the wicked).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you read the Scriptures you'll see that they did.

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

rom 3: 31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I don't really even pay much attention to his posts anymore. I consider them drive by postings.

lol.. Aww poor baby, are you afraid?

How about spending more time reading the word, and you would not have to worry about being made to look bad.

 

[Butch5]

Matthew 5:18
For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.


Luke 16:17
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Matthew 5:17
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

rom 3: 31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

If you'd read the entire sentence instead of just the words you want to see, you'd see that it won't pass until it is fulfilled.

Then if you'd read the entire sentence of Mathew 5:17, instead of just the words you want to see, you'd see that Jesus came to fulfill the Law. Did He suceed>

lol.. Aww poor baby, are you afraid?

Not from anything you've said. You keep posting your opinion, that's not Scripture.

How about spending more time reading the word, and you would not have to worry about being made to look bad. [/QUOTE]

 

[Butch5]

Paul says we are to keep three things blameless to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. These three things are the soul, body, and spirit. Mary said she rejoiced within her spirit. Scripture says man's spirit returns to God; And there are ton of other verses that talk about man's spirit. So no. You are way off base here.

Not at all. There is a spirit/breath in man, just look at Gen 2:7, it's God's. Look at the grammar, the fact that Scripture says "Your" proves that man isn't a spirit. Your is possessive, and indicts something in one's possession. If I said, your truck, would you tell me that man is a truck? No. If I said, your money, would you tell me that man is money? No. The word your indicates something in one's possession. Is man in possession of a spirit? Yes, God's spirit, just look at Gen. 2:7.

So Scripture talking about "your" spirit/breath is just referencing the spirit/breath that a person is in possession of. It doesn't mean nor say that man "IS" a spirit.

 

[sveinen]

Yes, it's so good to talk about how the wicked will suffer for all eternity this Christmas day. Let's share that false fact with the ones you love this holiday season to make them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Uuuuh, like... no.

In other words, folks know ECT is wrong deep down. But they just don't care. It is so ingrained into their thinking of God that they cannot think of God in any other way. It is a false doctrine of making God look bad that is shrouded in mystery and based off a few verses taken out of context (All while ignoring many good passages that talk about the destruction of the wicked).

folks know nothing.
Praise Be To God.
THE CROSS. It Is Done. think you can see a need for it?
better thank High One.
He would never look bad. Is Bad.
Does Meet. Did. Higher. Life or death.
you choose; He Grant.
NEED HIM.

 

[Jason0047]

Not at all. There is a spirit/breath in man, just look at Gen 2:7, it's God's. Look at the grammar, the fact that Scripture says "Your" proves that man isn't a spirit. Your is possessive, and indicts something in one's possession. If I said, your truck, would you tell me that man is a truck? No. If I said, your money, would you tell me that man is money? No. The word your indicates something in one's possession. Is man in possession of a spirit? Yes, God's spirit, just look at Gen. 2:7.

So Scripture talking about "your" spirit/breath is just referencing the spirit/breath that a person is in possession of. It doesn't mean nor say that man "IS" a spirit.

Not interested.

 

[Jason0047]

folks know nothing.
Praise Be To God.
THE CROSS. It Is Done. think you can see a need for it?
better thank High One.
He would never look bad. Is Bad.
Does Meet. Did. Higher. Life or death.
you choose; He Grant.
NEED HIM.

..... Okay.

 

[Butch5]

Not interested.

Why, because it's what the Scriptures say?

 

[Jason0047]

Why, because it's what the Scriptures say?

No, I understand those verses just fine. I am not interested in the fact of debating with whom I believe does not have an understanding of the basics concerning the Christian faith.

~ Again, no offense.

I just do not think my discussion with you on Biblical matters will be received or bear any kind of fruit for you. For I believe you have an askewed understanding of the basics, my friend.

Please understand I say this not to wound you, but I say this in truth and in love.

 

[Butch5]

No, I understand those verses just fine. I am not interested in the fact of debating with whom I believe does not have an understanding of the basics concerning the Christian faith.

~ Again, no offense.

I just do not think my discussion with you on Biblical matters will be received or bear any kind of fruit for you. For I believe you have an askewed understanding of the basics, my friend.

Please understand I say this not to wound you, but I say this in truth and in love.

I'm not offended in the least. Have you considered though that it may benefit you? As can be seen what I believe is straight out of the Scriptures. And, as you put it in the other thread, it is the plain straight forward reading of the passage. I'm not being sarcastic when I say maybe you should reconsider what you believe to be the basics. I used to believe the same things before I realized how much theologians impose their thoughts on things

 

[Jason0047]

I'm not offended in the least. Have you considered though that it may benefit you? As can be seen what I believe is straight out of the Scriptures. And, as you put it in the other thread, it is the plain straight forward reading of the passage. I'm not being sarcastic when I say maybe you should reconsider what you believe to be the basics. I used to believe the same things before I realized how much theologians impose their thoughts on things

My position on this matter still stands. I have my reasons (Which are by the Spirit and God's Word).

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hell is a real place.
Hell is nothing like what people in this or past generations believes it to be.

Hell is any, i repeat ANY place where God is not.

God is LOVE, Peace, Joy, Happiness, Everything that feels Good.

When God in the end, cast satan and the demons and all the spirits that freely chose to abide in satans ways, will be put somewhere in the Universe, that will be totally deprived of GOD, totally and completely separated from God. There will be no LOVE there, for love is God. There will be no happiness, there will be no joy, or pleasures of any kind, like eating when you are hungry, NOTHING, but sadness, despair, sense of loss, hopelessness, depression, hate, anger, and any other trait that is not Godly.
The torture and torment, is not physical in nature, but their could be some of that by others that are with you, the torture and torment, and the punishment is the lack of anything God, lack of love, lack of compassion, kindness, being nice, All GONE, Because God will not be there. This place where all these souls will be bound to for all eternity, will utterly be separated from God Himself. THAT is the torment, THAT is the torture, THAT is the punishment.

Anyone who rebels against God, choose to be separated from Him. God does not put people there, people, because of their own actions that they freely choose to do, put their own selves there. God will weep for every single soul that ends up there. He weeps, because each one of them FAILED to believe the Truths whcih they were made privy too, by and through those He chooses to teach those Truths, they freely reject the Truth. And instead of repenting and turning away from their sinning, they make excuses for their wickedness, and never cease from them, all the while proclaiming with their mouths they are a follower of Jesus, yet they knowingly and willingly obey His enemy, then like and immature kid say "i blame my flesh, because it is weak" The flesh indeed is weak. But if Christ truly be in you, He has the power to give you that strength and power to overcome EVERY temptation. Nay, those who end up separated from God and in Hell, freely chose to rebel against God, even as Lucifer in a like manner rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven for all eternity. If you have ears to hear, i am begging you to hear this message.

^i^

 

[Angela53510]

I did not read the whole thread, so if this has been covered, please forgive me.

The second question in the title caught my eye. "Is it loving?"

So is the "it' referring to hell and the Lake of Fire, which is the antecedent, or is it referring to God? Probably God is my guess, since I can't see hell ever being loving. Please watch the grammar on this type of thing!

Anyway, the entire OP shows a lack of understanding of the character of God.

God is loving, no doubt about it. In fact, God IS love. 1 John 4:8, 16.

But the other part of God is righteous. God is also righteous. Righteousness is related to justice in both the Hebrew and the Greek, which is what you are forgetting in the second somewhat confusing question in the title of this thread.


"137 Righteous are you, O Lord,
and right are your rules." Psalm 1119:137

"Clouds and thick darkness are all around him; righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne." Psalm 97:2

"Your righteousness, O God,
reaches the high heavens.
You who have done great things,
O God, who is like you?" Psalm 71:19

" O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me." John 17:25

In fact, righteousness is so important, that God makes us righteous in Christ.

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor. 5:21

God's righteousness comes out of his holiness. Justice cannot be served if hell fades away to please a false God who is loving, but not righteous.

Jason, you have a lot of ideas which are verging on, or are heresy. Instead of posting this nonsense here, I would recommend you re-read through the Bible, and do a study on righteousness/justice/holiness. Even you might be persuaded to change your mind about what punishment non-believers will face.

 

[Angela53510]

A little more on this concept of righteousness.

"RighteousnessGod the Father is righteous (just); Jesus Christ his Son is the Righteous (Just) One; the Father through the Son and in the Spirit gives the gift of righteousness (justice) to repentant sinners for salvation; such believing sinners are declared righteous (just) by the Father through the Son, are made righteous (just) by the Holy Spirit working in them, and will be wholly righteous (just) in the age to come. They are and will be righteous because they are in a covenant relation with the living God, who is the God of all grace and mercy and who will bring to completion what he has begun in them by declaring them righteous for Christ's sake.
The noun righteousness/justice (Gk. dikaiosune) bears meanings in the New Testament related to two sources. The major one is the Hebrew thought-world of the Old Testament and particularly the sdq word group, which locates the meaning in the sphere of God's gracious, covenantal relation to his people and the appropriate behavior of the covenant partners (Yahweh and Israel) toward each other. The other is the regular use of the words in everyday Greek as spoken in New Testament times, which fixes the meaning in the sphere of a life in conformity to a known standard or lawthus honesty, legality, and so on. This latter meaning in terms of doing God's will is of course also found in the Old Testament.
When we translate the Greek words based on the stem dikai- into English we make use of two sets of words based on the stems, just and right. So we have just, justice, justify and right, righteous, righteousness, rightwise (old English). The use of two sets of English words for the one set of Greek words sometimes causes difficulties for students of the Bible. This is especially so when the verb "to justify, " describing God's word and action, is used with the noun "righteousness, " pointing to the result of that action."

Righteousness - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online

 

[Butch5]

I did not read the whole thread, so if this has been covered, please forgive me.

The second question in the title caught my eye. "Is it loving?"

So is the "it' referring to hell and the Lake of Fire, which is the antecedent, or is it referring to God? Probably God is my guess, since I can't see hell ever being loving. Please watch the grammar on this type of thing!

Anyway, the entire OP shows a lack of understanding of the character of God.

God is loving, no doubt about it. In fact, God IS love. 1 John 4:8, 16.

But the other part of God is righteous. God is also righteous. Righteousness is related to justice in both the Hebrew and the Greek, which is what you are forgetting in the second somewhat confusing question in the title of this thread.


"137 Righteous are you, O Lord,
and right are your rules." Psalm 1119:137

"Clouds and thick darkness are all around him;righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne." Psalm 97:2

"Your righteousness, O God,
reaches the high heavens.
You who have done great things,
O God, who is like you?" Psalm 71:19

"O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me." John 17:25

In fact, righteousness is so important, that God makes us righteous in Christ.

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor. 5:21

God's righteousness comes out of his holiness. Justice cannot be served if hell fades away to please a false God who is loving, but not righteous.

Jason, you have a lot of ideas which are verging on, or are heresy. Instead of posting this nonsense here, I would recommend you re-read through the Bible, and do a study on righteousness/justice/holiness. Even you might be persuaded to change your mind about what punishment non-believers will face.

Hi Angela,

I agree that God is righteous, so let me ask a question. Is it righteous to threaten one punishment for sins and and give a different one?

 

[Jason0047]

Hell is a real place.
Hell is nothing like what people in this or past generations believes it to be.

Hell is any, i repeat ANY place where God is not.

God is LOVE, Peace, Joy, Happiness, Everything that feels Good.

When God in the end, cast satan and the demons and all the spirits that freely chose to abide in satans ways, will be put somewhere in the Universe, that will be totally deprived of GOD, totally and completely separated from God. There will be no LOVE there, for love is God. There will be no happiness, there will be no joy, or pleasures of any kind, like eating when you are hungry, NOTHING, but sadness, despair, sense of loss, hopelessness, depression, hate, anger, and any other trait that is not Godly.
The torture and torment, is not physical in nature, but their could be some of that by others that are with you, the torture and torment, and the punishment is the lack of anything God, lack of love, lack of compassion, kindness, being nice, All GONE, Because God will not be there. This place where all these souls will be bound to for all eternity, will utterly be separated from God Himself. THAT is the torment, THAT is the torture, THAT is the punishment.

Anyone who rebels against God, choose to be separated from Him. God does not put people there, people, because of their own actions that they freely choose to do, put their own selves there. God will weep for every single soul that ends up there. He weeps, because each one of them FAILED to believe the Truths whcih they were made privy too, by and through those He chooses to teach those Truths, they freely reject the Truth. And instead of repenting and turning away from their sinning, they make excuses for their wickedness, and never cease from them, all the while proclaiming with their mouths they are a follower of Jesus, yet they knowingly and willingly obey His enemy, then like and immature kid say "i blame my flesh, because it is weak" The flesh indeed is weak. But if Christ truly be in you, He has the power to give you that strength and power to overcome EVERY temptation. Nay, those who end up separated from God and in Hell, freely chose to rebel against God, even as Lucifer in a like manner rebelled against God and was cast out of Heaven for all eternity. If you have ears to hear, i am begging you to hear this message.

^i^

I disagree. First, God is Omnipresent and is capable of being in Hades. For...

Psalm 139:8 says,
"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

In fact, Jesus even preached to the spirits in prison, too (1 Peter 3:19). These spirits were clearly the wicked souls who perished during the global flood (1 Peter 3:20).

Second, I see nothing in Scripture about what you suggest in the afterlife, either in Hades (Hell) or Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Third, a lot of wrong assumptions are made on just a few small verses in Scripture that Hell is eternal. For it's everlasting punishment and not everlasting punishing. Meaning, the consequences are eternal. Also, Revelation 14:11 is in a metaphorical phrase taken from Isaiah 34:10. For does Revelation 14:11 say the wicked people themselves are tormented forever and ever or does it say the smoke of their torment? Big difference. Smoke is not people. As for Revelation 20:10: Well, Revelation 20:10 is in reference to the devil, beast, and the false prophet and not believers. The word "ever" in Revelation 20:10 is the Greek word "aion" which means "age." We know this because the same Greek word "aion" in Matthew 24:3 is translated as "world" with the disciples asking Jesus about "the end of the world" (i.e. end of the age). The devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for the ages of ages. Meaning they will be tormented day and night for the purpose of the ages of ages. In other words, the devil and his minions will one day be tormented day and night in fire because they tormented humanity for ages and ages within the past.

 

[justin777]

I'll explain it.

1. Humans have free will
2. Hell is the absence of Gods love and beauty.
3. People choose to reject God they don't have to be with Him because of free will.
4. People who don't know about Jesus don't go to hell.

 

[justin777]

Just like God to give Adam and Eve free will made a tree that could destroy them so they were able to choose him or the tree. God has made hell which is complete lack of His character for those who completely rejected Jesus.

There is no in between place where it's sort of nice, that wouldn't be logical because the people have not accepted any of God whatsoever and the Bible says every good and perfect thing comes from God and that God is love and peace.

 

[Jason0047]

I did not read the whole thread, so if this has been covered, please forgive me.

I highly recommend that you do read the thread. There was some great points brought up that the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) Proponent cannot answer.

The second question in the title caught my eye. "Is it loving?"

So is the "it' referring to hell and the Lake of Fire, which is the antecedent, or is it referring to God? Probably God is my guess, since I can't see hell ever being loving. Please watch the grammar on this type of thing!

Anyway, the entire OP shows a lack of understanding of the character of God.

God is loving, no doubt about it. In fact, God IS love. 1 John 4:8, 16.

Okay, here is what doesn't make sense. You said Hell is not loving. No doubt, I agree the ECT version of Hell is definitely not loving. This is the weak link in the chain of Eternal Conscious Torment.

In other words, you believe God is love and God is loving.
And then you said Hell is not loving.

Yet, Hell was created by God for the purpose of justice, though. God's justice is to keep order and establish a standard of good and fairness amongst his creation. Justice is also established to conquer that which is evil, too. Justice is not established to keep evil hanging around, but to eradicate or stop evil. In fact, in the Old Testament, when God set out to destroy an evil group of people, He would end up having them destroyed or erradicated unless they repented of their wickedness.

But God's justice being executed was not an act that was not loving. God having his enemies destroyed shows that God loved his people and did not want them to be corrupted or hurt.

But the other part of God is righteous. God is also righteous. Righteousness is related to justice in both the Hebrew and the Greek, which is what you are forgetting in the second somewhat confusing question in the title of this thread.


"137 Righteous are you, O Lord,
and right are your rules." Psalm 1119:137

"Clouds and thick darkness are all around him;righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne." Psalm 97:2

"Your righteousness, O God,
reaches the high heavens.
You who have done great things,
O God, who is like you?" Psalm 71:19

"O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me." John 17:25

In fact, righteousness is so important, that God makes us righteous in Christ.

"For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor. 5:21

God's righteousness comes out of his holiness. Justice cannot be served if hell fades away to please a false God who is loving, but not righteous.

No, love and righteousness are tied together. They are not separate or opposites of each other. For you make a distinction between love and righteousness where no such distinction should exist. The Scriptures say all unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17); And they also say, sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). Meaning, righteousness is the obedience of the Law; And Jesus kept the Law perfectly on our behalf whereby He can impute His righteous acts or deeds to a us. Now, what did both Jesus and Paul say about the key to the Law? It is iove. Jesus quoted the two greatest Commandments is to love God and the other is to love your neighbor (Whereby all the Law hangs upon). Paul says if you love your neighbor, you have fulfilled the Law (i.e. the moral Law). In other words love and righteousness are tied together. They are not separate things.

Jason, you have a lot of ideas which are verging on, or are heresy. Instead of posting this nonsense here, I would recommend you re-read through the Bible, and do a study on righteousness/justice/holiness. Even you might be persuaded to change your mind about what punishment non-believers will face.

Again, such statements do not really mean anything unless you prove your case with the Bible and or with real world examples. I have explained the supposed heavy hitting verses for ECT such as Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:11, and Revelation 20:11. Yet, there are many Biblical passages for CI (Condtional Immortality). For the Bible speaks about how the wicked will be destroyed, or how they will experience everlasting destruction, die, be burned up as chaff, become ashes, and or have their body and soul destroyed in Hell (Gehenna).