What is your view of Hell and the Lake of Fire? Is it Loving?

[Jason0047]

In the last days deceivers will pour out from Satan to attempt, if possible, a single refutation of Jesus our Lord and savior. If one word can be successfully disputed, then all are lost, without hope.

But I am not lost, nor without hope. I have resisted the atheists and their religion of evolution. I am resisting the world's notion of eternal punishment. I will not have pity for the atheist or evolutionist that would dilute the truth of God, or find peace from a child of God accepting a compromised hybrid theology.
Don't do it!

Little by little Satan is rewording the word of God. That's what he did in the garden of Eden. He changed the word of God so slightly, just enough to spiritually poison mankind.
Recognize the usual arguments of Satan. They keep coming at us. What has been cherished by the Church, confirmed in His word, is being trodden under foot.

Make certain your feet are not doing that!

Teaching that God is loving and good and fair in His Judgments is not wrong. What is wrong is blindly following a wrong interpretation of the Bible that cannot be explained in any way shape or form either with Scripture and or with real world examples. As I stated before, believing something and shutting of ones moral compass is a very dangerous game to play (As the case in point with those who were deceived by Jim Jones, and others).

Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that find it. The Scriptures say there is none that understands. Scripture also says His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Now, again, I am not saying that one's view on Hell is a Soteriology (salvation) issue, but certainly the verses I referenced above in quick passing is clear that the majority view is not always the right or correct view. For the Bereans were more noble because they kept an OPEN MIND and they searched the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not. Most ECT propoents I talk with do not keep an open mind and consider the Conditional Imortality (CI) viewpoint with Scripture. They just believe ECT because that is either what their church has always taught and or because that is what the majority of churches and or other believers primarily believe (Which one can see by looking at the result in the poll). In other words, I really don't think it has anything to do with Scripture and or in the fact that they believe God is fair and just in their belief in ECT. It has to do more with following an interpretation in Scripture that they are comfortable with.

 

[Jason0047]

Now, to be fair and open and honest with folks here, I am going to say that I do not have all the answers about Heaven or Hell. I am also going to be open with folks here in what I believe is the Biblical view on this point of topic (i.e. Hell and the Lake of Fire). In other words, I am going to point out the pro's and the con's of my Biblical position.

While the Biblical position I believe in can be labeled as: "Conditional Immortality" (CI), more specifically (or in detail), I believe in the position called: "Dualistic Conditionalism." This is the teaching that there is an intermediate state (i.e. Hell - No soul sleep) and the Lake of Fire after the Judgment is a place that leads to the destruction of the body and soul with death (whether a power or an entity) being the last of God's enemies to be destroyed.

The Pro's in believing in the Biblical position of Dualistic Conditionalism is:

#1. One can easily explain the final sentence of God's punishment as being consistent with God's love, justice, and mercy.

#2. One does not have to ignore their moral compass in order to believe it.

#3. One will discover that many verses in the Bible actually make more sense.

#4. More verses have to be allegorized with the ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) view.​

The Con's in believing in the Biblical position of Dualistic Conditionalism is:

#1. One will not be as accepted or liked by the majority of Christiandom.

#2. The difficulty in convincing others that the KJV (that influenced other versions) is written in Old English, not Modern English.

#3. At first glance: The existence of Intermediate State allowing for 1,000's of years of punishment is not consistent with Conditionalism or immediate destruction in the Lake of Fire (See the first thread link here to learn more):

​

Dualistic Conditionalism.

However, I believe God is fair and just and that time is not exactly the same in Heaven and Hell as it is here on Earth.

Here is a good online book at Google that talks about God, time, and Heaven.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0...X&ei=U1-bVIPOPNDhoATW3YC4Dw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAjgK

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, I voted for the "Real Hell (Torment and Not Torture) Conditionalism View" in the Poll (Which represents "Dualistic Conditionalism" or the more general name, "Conditional Immortality" (CI)).

 

[G4JC]

Eternal Conscious Torment...
Sermon on this: Hell - Bro. Oliver B. Greene https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ltsTmEKI3wA#t=203

 

[Jason0047]

#3. At first glance: The existence of Intermediate State allowing for 1,000's of years of punishment is not consistent with Conditionalism or immediate destruction in the Lake of Fire (See the first thread link here to learn more):

​

Dualistic Conditionalism.

However, I believe God is fair and just and that time is not exactly the same in Heaven and Hell as it is here on Earth.

Here is a good online book at Google that talks about God, time, and Heaven.

https://books.google.com/books?id=0...X&ei=U1-bVIPOPNDhoATW3YC4Dw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAjgK

In other words, time is different in Heaven and Hell so we cannot go by our measurement of time here on Earth as to how long folks are being tormented (not tortured) in Hades (i.e. Hell).

 

[kennethcadwell]

Also, the 2nd Death (i.e. the Lake of Fire) cannot be understood as talking about eternal torment because it is tied to the 1st Death. The numbering here suggests that they are related to one another. For Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 that we should fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell. The question then remains, why don't people believe Jesus?

This is because people have always only wanted to pick and chose what parts of the bible they want to go by, and what parts they want to not go buy or twist to make it fit how they want to live. People like to twist scripture to justify being able to still commit sins, and say can be imputed on a believer again.
Problem is then is why are there scriptures that show different rewards for how obedient the believer was to Him, and then others that say like in 2 Peter that believers can get tangled back up in sin again. Then you have Paul warning Timothy not to get caught up or partake in others sins making himself impure from sin again.

I see people wanting to cancel out half of what our Lord Jesus said all the time.

 

[Jason0047]

This is because people have always only wanted to pick and chose what parts of the bible they want to go by, and what parts they want to not go buy or twist to make it fit how they want to live. People like to twist scripture to justify being able to still commit sins, and say can be imputed on a believer again.
Problem is then is why are there scriptures that show different rewards for how obedient the believer was to Him, and then others that say like in 2 Peter that believers can get tangled back up in sin again. Then you have Paul warning Timothy not to get caught up or partake in others sins making himself impure from sin again.

I see people wanting to cancel out half of what our Lord Jesus said all the time.

Yes, I don't believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). But I do believe a person can deepen their relationship with Christ and gain root within His Word so as not to fall away due to persecution and or the cares of this life. The good news is that God is love. We can choose to be with Him and His love or meet an eventual destruction or end. For God sends rain on the just and the unjust. For God is good, loving, fair, and just in all He does.

 

[ardchoille]

We are talking about whether or not the punishment is loving, fair, and just.

In whose mind? The mind of fallible man?

Imagine a child near a fire place. The child reaches for the fire out of curiosity and a parent pulls the child back and says "no, don't touch that". Does the child really need to know why he or she shouldn't touch the fire? No, the child has only to trust that the parent is doing what is right for the child, that's all that matters.

Do I really need to know whether hell means eternal separation from God or if it means that I will be tortured (pain, anguish, etc.) for eternity? No, it is enough for me to know that I do not want to go there simply because God has gone to such great lengths to provide a way to salvation.

Is hell loving, fair, or just? I can only trust that God knows more than I do, so that is enough for me.

 

[mcubed]

Yes, it's loving. LOVE saved us from having to go!!!! Y-shua came so we don't have to go there; people go by choice. Not to mention people are in love with themselves sooooo much they put themselves there. So either way you look at it hell is loving.

 

[Jason0047]

In whose mind? The mind of fallible man?

Imagine a child near a fire place. The child reaches for the fire out of curiosity and a parent pulls the child back and says "no, don't touch that". Does the child really need to know why he or she shouldn't touch the fire? No, the child has only to trust that the parent is doing what is right for the child, that's all that matters.

Do I really need to know whether hell means eternal separation from God or if it means that I will be tortured for eternity? No, it is enough for me to know that I do not want to go there simply because God has gone to such great lengths to provide a way to salvation.

Is hell loving, fair, or just? I can only trust that God knows more than I do, so that is enough for me.

Sorry, the turn off your moral compass and just believe a false vew on Scripture is a dangerous Theology to have. As I said before, Jim Jones got folks to shut off their brains and or moral compasses and got them to commit suicide. So no. I am not buying the whole just follow my interpretation of Scripture --- even though it does not make any lick of sense morally.

 

[ardchoille]

Sorry, the turn off your moral compass and just believe a false vew on Scripture is a dangerous Theology to have. As I said before, Jim Jones got folks to shut off their brains and or moral compasses and got them to commit suicide. So no. I am not buying the whole just follow my interpretation of Scripture --- even though it does not make any lick of sense morally.

I simply said it was enough for me. Whether or not that makes sense to you is really up to you, I have no control over that.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes, it's loving. LOVE saved us from having to go!!!! Y-shua came so we don't have to go there; people go by choice. Not to mention people are in love with themselves sooooo much they put themselves there. So either way you look at it hell is loving.

No. This is called misdirection and misapplication. For example: If a dictator punished people waaaaaay beyond what the crimes call for by torturing them their enntire lives it does not mean anything if that same dictator did great and loving things in other parts of his life.

 

[Jason0047]

Eternal Conscious Torment...
Sermon on this: Hell - Bro. Oliver B. Greene https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ltsTmEKI3wA#t=203

[video=youtube;oHUPpmbTOV4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4&sns=em[/video]

Side Note:

I agree with Edward Fudge on his teaching on the Lake of Fire. However, I disagree with his belief on soul sleep, though. The main thrust of Conditionalism is about how the Lake of Fire will destroy a person both body and soul.

 

[mcubed]

No. This is called misdirection and misapplication. For example: If a dictator punished people waaaaaay beyond what the crimes call for by torturing them their enntire lives it does not mean anything if that same dictator did great and loving things in other parts of his life.

Ok. But let me get this strait your saying G-d is a dictator?

 

[Jason0047]

[video=youtube;oHUPpmbTOV4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHUPpmbTOV4&sns=em[/video]

Side Note:

I agree with Edward Fudge on his teaching on the Lake of Fire. However, I disagree with his belief on soul sleep, though. The main thrust of Conditionalism is about how the Lake of Fire will destroy a person both body and soul.

Also, I am not a supporter of the Church of Christ. I disagree with their doctrine of baptismal salvation, etc. However, Mr. Fudge is the first person who sold has published a book that was a best seller on this particular topic; In fact, his book "the Fire that Consumes" still remains one of the most comprehensive teachings on this subject today. So while I may not agree with all of what he believes, I do agree with His view on the Lake of Fire (Which is what the video is about).

 

[Jason0047]

Ok. But let me get this strait your saying G-d is a dictator?

No, I can explain the passages quite easily that ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) proponents misinterpret. So I am not calling God a dictator at all. I am calling the ECT proponents' false interpretation or view on God as being unfair for punishing someone waaaay beyond what the crime calls for. In other words, I don't believe the ECT version of God is the true representation of the God of the Bible. Granted, this is not a Soteriology issue. But I do believe it is an important one, though. Anyways, I also used an example of a dictator doing the same thing as the ECT God to illustrate my point. In other words, I know that you would not approve of some ruler in another country torturing people painfully their entire lives unfairly for certain crimes (Especially if it was somebody that you loved and or cared about).

 

[Jason0047]

Also, did Jesus die once to pay the price for our crimes or did Jesus have to suffer for all eternity in the Lake of Fire in order to pay the price for our sins? In other words, the penalty for sin was paid for with Christ ---- ONE TIME --- whereby He acted on our behalf as a substitute. If Christ is our substitute and we would end up being punished eternally, then Christ would have to pay that same punishment. However, the wages or the punishment for sin is death and not Eternal Torment, though.

 

[mcubed]

I am going to be as real as real can be.... when I see video of my people that are Orthodox Jews and what they do to "keep" Torah and please G-d I cry and don't understand how G-d can send them to hell. But the truth is they rejected Y-shua. I am the created and not the creator.... I pray for the vial to be removed from their eyes so that will know Him (Y-shua). I wish many times G-d was a dictator I would in all things be holy as He is holy. I do know Him in whom I have believed; He is merciful, love and kind. And He is holy, just, and righteous. I will not soften hell because I love people too much to see them go there.

 

[Butch5]

lol. so the events which are said to happen. are not events?

there will be no great white judgement, it is all a symbol? there will be no new heaven and earth, that is just a symbol?

poor us, we have been fooled into thinking there is a heaven, it is all a symbol!

It's interesting how you avoid the hard questions? Would you assert that there was a Lamb with seven eyes hanging on the cross?

 

[Butch5]

no, they did not.

If you read the Scriptures you'll see that they did.