THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[eternally-gratefull]

eternal salvation is to those who obey Him...you are saying one can disobey God and still have eternal salvation...God does not condemn us sin does because of the law...
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The law does not make anyone sin ...men sin because of error or choice....the law only tells you that you sinned...
Romans 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

so your perfect? i know of no man in the bible or otherwise who has met gods standard of obedience, there is only one standard of obedience in scripure for obedience and that is the law. and scripure is clear, all men have fallen are falling and will fall short of that standard. so if obedience is required, who can be saved?

 

[newbirth]

so your perfect? i know of no man in the bible or otherwise who has met gods standard of obedience, there is only one standard of obedience in scripure for obedience and that is the law. and scripure is clear, all men have fallen are falling and will fall short of that standard. so if obedience is required, who can be saved?

that is why we have an intercessor ...If we sin....but our aim should be ... not to sin...
if there is only one standard in scripture for obedience which is the law.then........
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

becomes a lie or you are a liar....I put my faith in the word of God...so I believe you are a liar....

 

[Chopper]

so your perfect? i know of no man in the bible or otherwise who has met gods standard of obedience, there is only one standard of obedience in scripure for obedience and that is the law. and scripure is clear, all men have fallen are falling and will fall short of that standard. so if obedience is required, who can be saved?

There is One who met the standards of our Father...

Isa_42:21 YHWH is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

Mat 17:1 And after six days Yahushua taketh Kepha, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and EliYah talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Kepha, and said unto Yahushua, My master, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for EliYah.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is One who met the standards of our Father...

amen.. As he said, there is non good but God.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that is why we have an intercessor ...If we sin....but our aim should be ... not to sin...
if there is only one standard in scripture for obedience which is the law.then........
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

becomes a lie or you are a liar....I put my faith in the word of God...so I believe you are a liar....

No. You put your faith in your works. And how good you think you are. the law is still working in your life, because you have not obeyed or fulfilled it yet. You just ignore its condemnation.

I obey God, but am not good enough to earn salvation. so I am condemned by the law.

Those who HAVE eternal life do obey him..They do not have eternal life BECAUSE they obey him.

you have the sequence wrong.

The law condemns you. the blood of christ cleanses you, he either paid your price in full. or you have no hope.

 

[Brainfreeze]

The law showed us the payment for sin, the sacrificial laws we a symbol of what Christ did on the cross.

as scripture says, without the shedding of sin there can be no forgiveness. it also says the blood of bulls and goats never took away sin.

Scripure says the reason the high priest no longer has to sacrifice once a year on the day of atonement, for his own sin, and the sin of the poeple. is because Christ paid the price with his own blood. and sat down at the right hand of the father to make intercession as our high priest.

there is no more sacrifice for sin, it is either eternally forgiven by grace, or eternally condemned because of unbelief.

there is no inbetween.

So do you think men killed and raped and the high priest said, go, get me to sheep and two turtle doves ?

 

[Brainfreeze]

No. You put your faith in your works. And how good you think you are. the law is still working in your life, because you have not obeyed or fulfilled it yet. You just ignore its condemnation.

I obey God, but am not good enough to earn salvation. so I am condemned by the law.

Those who HAVE eternal life do obey him..They do not have eternal life BECAUSE they obey him.

you have the sequence wrong.

The law condemns you. the blood of christ cleanses you, he either paid your price in full. or you have no hope.

…25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.…

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So do you think men killed and raped and the high priest said, go, get me to sheep and two turtle doves ?

I believe what the law said, sacrifice is given for sin.

But I get your point. It is like going and lieing to your boss. Coveting your neighbors car, or whatever, then going to repent and expecting God to forgive you just because you repented. Same idea

 

[eternally-gratefull]

…25not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. 26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.…

tell me how those people ever had faith in God.

Please do not say your one of those who will say I have faith in someone, yet continually ignores everything they say.

 

[Hizikyah]

amen.. As he said, there is non good but God.

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

Great verse but you forgot the second half of it:

Matthew 19:17 Parallel Verses
New International Version
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

New Living Translation
"Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. But to answer your question--if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

King James Bible
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Brainfreeze]

I believe what the law said, sacrifice is given for sin.

But I get your point. It is like going and lieing to your boss. Coveting your neighbors car, or whatever, then going to repent and expecting God to forgive you just because you repented. Same idea

The ones under grace, are the ones dead and alive through The Messiah... If anyone hasn't died to themselves, there not under grace..if one dies, then resurrects the old man... We are endanger of hell fire..if one dies to themselves and lives through the Holy Ghost,we are under grace... and remain there, Simple

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The ones under grace, are the ones dead and alive through The Messiah... If anyone hasn't died to themselves, there not under grace..if one dies, then resurrects the old man... We are endanger of hell fire..if one dies to themselves and lives through the Holy Ghost,we are under grace... and remain there, Simple

And how do you get that from looking at the law and sacrifices?

that was the symbol of how one is saved.

to be honest, what you just said does not make any sense.

 

[Mitspa]

that is why we have an intercessor ...If we sin....but our aim should be ... not to sin...
if there is only one standard in scripture for obedience which is the law.then........
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

becomes a lie or you are a liar....I put my faith in the word of God...so I believe you are a liar....

lol why do legalist always break Gods law trying to defend Gods law? What is it the Jews killed Christians to uphold Gods law...they even killed Christ claiming they was upholding Gods law....how odd and blind does legalism make folks?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Great verse but you forgot the second half of it:

Matthew 19:17 Parallel Verses
New International Version
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."

New Living Translation
"Why ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. But to answer your question--if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments."

English Standard Version
And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

New American Standard Bible
And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

King James Bible
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

no, I did not forget it at all. it was not in context of how I used this verse.

Jesus made a point, There is non good. But if you want to have life keep the commands.

any good person who understand the law. would realize, I can not keep the commandments as required by God. Thus I need a savior.

the person in question thought he kept the commands, he still did not get it. Jesus proved he broke of the first command. making him cursed according to the law. Yet when Jesus showed him this fact. instead of having his light go on and FINALLY SEEING the truth, He walked away sad, because he loved sin more than God.

 

[Hizikyah]

no, I did not forget it at all. it was not in context of how I used this verse.

Jesus made a point, There is non good. But if you want to have life keep the commands.

any good person who understand the law. would realize, I can not keep the commandments as required by God. Thus I need a savior.

the person in question thought he kept the commands, he still did not get it. Jesus proved he broke of the first command. making him cursed according to the law. Yet when Jesus showed him this fact. instead of having his light go on and FINALLY SEEING the truth, He walked away sad, because he loved sin more than God.

What you say is true but that does not change the fact of what Yahshua said.

and once we find that Savior (Yahshua - Jesus) and accept Him, do we then pray and follow what He says, or ignore what He says?

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The ones under grace, are the ones dead and alive through The Messiah... If anyone hasn't died to themselves, there not under grace..if one dies, then resurrects the old man... We are endanger of hell fire..if one dies to themselves and lives through the Holy Ghost,we are under grace... and remain there, Simple

they have to hide from their sin, if they would admit it and compare it to the law. they would have to admit how sinful they are. and how cursed they are.

it is easier to hide sin, or to excuse sin as not being sinful, than it is to admit your so totally hopeless. and no better than any other person who ever lived on earth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and once we find that Savior (Yahshua - Jesus) and accept Him, do we then pray follow what He says, or ignore what He says?

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

would you honestly think a person who had faith in someone ignore everything he says?

what kind of faith is that that does not do what someone says?

that is not faith at all. that is not even really belief!

 

[Mitspa]

and once we find that Savior (Yahshua - Jesus) and accept Him, do we then pray follow what He says, or ignore what He says?

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Yes not the law of Moses...but the commandment to love as He has loved us.... Obedience of faith and love.

 

[Brainfreeze]

And how do you get that from looking at the law and sacrifices?

that was the symbol of how one is saved.

to be honest, what you just said does not make any sense.

…13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Hizikyah]

would you honestly think a person who had faith in someone ignore everything he says?

what kind of faith is that that does not do what someone says?

that is not faith at all. that is not even really belief!

I agree with you here.

Then why do so many people disagree with me when I say just this same thing? Im told Jesus died so now it's ok. (you know this is generalized) But to say again, if we are supposed to be obedient after we accept His Sacrifice, why do 99% of Churches preach your free from the Law! Instead of;

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."

Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity (Lawlessness)."

For those WORDS ARE THE SAVIORS. So how is it possible to argue against the Commandments, when that is what the Messiah says.... I just don't get it....

Paul sums up my feeling perfectly here:

Romans 2:4-12, “Or do you despise the riches of His kindness, forbearance, and longsuffering; not realizing that Yahweh’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But according to your stubborn and impenitent mind you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Yahweh’s wrath, when the righteous judgment of Yahweh will be revealed; when He will reward each one according to his works: to the ones on the one hand, who, by patient persistence in doing righteousness, seek for glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life. But to the ones on the other hand, who are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, He will give indignation and wrath.” Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man who does evil: to the Yahdai(Jew) first, and also to the Greek (Gentile) But glory, honor, and peace to every man who works righteousness: to the Yahdai first, and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with Yahweh.For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.”